Food for thought?

[Mutchy]

Because I know exactly what it is going to say. Every news bulletin and tv documentaries are full of headlines like this across every walk of life. That is why I did not confine my reply to just football. I assume the article is going to say all these white boardrooms are all racist and have been for tens of years. I don't believe it. There will be many reasons why so few black players have made it in football management, racism may well be one but it goes far, far deeper than just that imo. As I said above many black ex-footballers go on to have top careers in football commentating, punditry and analysis plus careers in the tv and media. Football management is just one career open to them and at present there are not many doing it; who's to say in 5 years time it will not change for the better?

Do you? You assume, so you'll argue on that basis. Why aren't black footballers going on to take up positions of authority, ie managerial positions, in greater numbers?

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

I'm sorry but I don't agree. The statistics clearly show there is a lack of black representation at the top level in coaching and management, that part is certainly true, but they don't say why this is. You've chosen to believe that it is down to racism in football, and I choose to believe that that is just one of many variables that need to be explored to understand the full nature of the problem, and only then can you get to grips with it.

If you don't bother to fully investigate it and just apply post hoc ergo propter hoc then you'll end up in a blind alley.

“It’s just one of the many variables that needs exploring”.

Yeah it’s can’t possibly be down to skin colour that there’s been thousands of black players but only a handful become managers.

All these players who dedicate their life to a game then walk away as soon as they stop playing yet their white colleagues don’t do that. Strange that.

 

[SingleMalt]

Do you? You assume, so you'll argue on that basis. Why aren't black footballers going on to take up positions of authority, ie managerial positions, in greater numbers?

For a long time black players were thought of as being intellectually inferior to white players. That kind of stigma is hard to get rid of and probably quite damaging to black players looking to move into management.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

“It’s just one of the many variables that needs exploring”.

Yeah it’s can’t possibly be down to skin colour that there’s been thousands of black players but only a handful become managers.

All these players who dedicate their life to a game then walk away as soon as they stop playing yet their white colleagues don’t do that. Strange that.

But you are looking just at skin colour and ignoring any other potential reason. I'm saying that skin colour may well play a part but it is far too simplistic to say that is the only element.

But let's say you are correct and it's just good old fashioned racism at play and the Premier League should officially tell all their member clubs they are racists. What do you suggest is done about it? Quotas? Who decides which clubs must hire a black coach or manager? protected status for black managers so once hired they can't be fired for a minimum time period no matter what? No promotion unless you have a certain percentage of black staff? Relegation if you don't? How do you force teams to hire more black staff and how do you force more black coaches to apply for jobs? The NFL has had the Rooney rule in place for over 20 years but it hasn't led to a significant increase in black coaches being hired.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

But you are looking just at skin colour and ignoring any other potential reason. I'm saying that skin colour may well play a part but it is far too simplistic to say that is the only element.

But let's say you are correct and it's just good old fashioned racism at play and the Premier League should officially tell all their member clubs they are racists. What do you suggest is done about it? Quotas? Who decides which clubs must hire a black coach or manager? protected status for black managers so once hired they can't be fired for a minimum time period no matter what? No promotion unless you have a certain percentage of black staff? Relegation if you don't? How do you force teams to hire more black staff and how do you force more black coaches to apply for jobs? The NFL has had the Rooney rule in place for over 20 years but it hasn't led to a significant increase in black coaches being hired.

If there wasn’t such a MASSIVE difference then I might entertain the idea of other reasons that could come into account but because it’s so obviously outweighed then it so very obvious what the issue is.

It’s not for me to suggest what should be done about it, I’m just not prepared to put my head in the sand and pretend it’s anything other than racism. It’s like suggesting there’s no homophobia in football, just ludicrous

 

[Ercall Wolves]

So it’s merely a coincidence that a game played by 30% plus bame individuals only produces 2% of managers?

Either that or bame individuals are not applying for jobs or said individuals are getting beaten to the job for no other reason than being less qualified or less experienced I guess, no other reason IMO

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

If there wasn’t such a MASSIVE difference then I might entertain the idea of other reasons that could come into account but because it’s so obviously outweighed then it so very obvious what the issue is.

It’s not for me to suggest what should be done about it, I’m just not prepared to put my head in the sand and pretend it’s anything other than racism. It’s like suggesting there’s no homophobia in football, just ludicrous

I'm answering Mutchy's question to me above and this post. Ok, it's most probably racism. Racism, homophobia, anti semitism, sexual abuse, it all happens all over the UK, in all walks of life and in all occupations, including football. I read the article and there is nothing new in it. The game must 're-set, must re-engage' 'find sustainable solutions'. This jargon could have been written 10 years ago and I bet another academic report will be saying much the same thing in 10 years time. The situation is undeniably sad but this is just politicians-speak.

 

[Contrarian]

It can't be that simple though. I don't know what the make up of the average board is but any club that is being run by a bunch of old white men in club ties moaning about the empire and the state of young people today would quickly find themselves tumbling down the leagues.

They can't all tumble down the leagues, only 3 get relegated! How many clubs would supporters categorise as being well run, badly run or just middling? There are well run clubs, but I suspect that would be a minority. Probably more are being run as wealthy mens (and the occasional womens) toys and status objects.

While the stats show the despairing reality, it would be good to know what is behind them. What are the causes of them in the day to day running of football clubs? I would guess that them being run by people similar to what you suggest is part of it. That would need even more investigation of a depth that doesn't seem to get done.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

I'm answering Mutchy's question to me above and this post. Ok, it's most probably racism. Racism, homophobia, anti semitism, sexual abuse, it all happens all over the UK, in all walks of life and in all occupations, including football. I read the article and there is nothing new in it. The game must 're-set, must re-engage' 'find sustainable solutions'. This jargon could have been written 10 years ago and I bet another academic report will be saying much the same thing in 10 years time. The situation is undeniably sad but this is just politicians-speak.

So because it happens we should just accept it?

 

[loppers86]

I've hesitated to enter this debate because I can't be bothered for the flak that I might get but on reflection there has to be a voice that speaks up for old white men, as I am one. I accept what SBK says, that the majority of boardrooms in this country will be populated by older, white, (well educated) men. I would suggest we want generally older and well educated people to run our companies and we are predominantly a white country. I don't accept at all that because you are an older white man you will discriminate against people of colour when interviewing candidates for a job. I haven't read the 'snakes and ladders' article because I'm sure it will annoy me but if The Black Footballers Partnership is saying it's all down and no ups for black managers and black former players I just don't buy that. There's loads of black managers (2 in the Prem), football media work is massively populated by former black players, FFS, Jermaine Jenas hosts the One Show! Virtually every tv show, from cooking programmes to travel shows to house renovation shows have black participants, again Dion Dublin does Cash in the Attic, or similar. In fact I'd be amazed to turn the telly on and not see an ex black footballer strutting his stuff! Imo there's a world of opportunity for former players, black, white, male and female both within football and outside.

you really should read the article:

“despite black players making up 25% of Uefa-issued coaching qualifications, in 2022 and 2023, they only accounted for 4% of all managerial roles”…

that one statistic alone is enough to indicate there is a problem.

diversity is not just the right thing to do, it also gets better results and a better society because all needs and points of view are considered.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Either that or bame individuals are not applying for jobs or said individuals are getting beaten to the job for no other reason than being less qualified or less experienced I guess, no other reason IMO

Don’t you always have no experience if you don’t get offered a job? Sol Campbell had to start in league 2, where did his golden generation colleagues start?

 

[Supadavewolf]

The NFL has had the Rooney rule in place for over 20 years but it hasn't led to a significant increase in black coaches being hired.

The Rooney Rule came into force in the early noughties, with 3 BAME head coaches, and unfortunately this figure stayed low until recently.

2024 there should be 9 BAME HCs, which given (the last figures I saw) there are some 70% BAME players, remains disappointing.

Having said that, from observation there seems to be a far higher % of other coaching staff (Coordinators, OL and DL coaches, WR coaches etc) with BAME heritage compared to when I started watching the NFL some 4 decades ago.

Furthermore, a rule such as Rooney does, as a minimum, highlight the fact that there's clearly a mismatch between player heritage and HC heritage, and encourages those in power at club level to at least consider a range of applicants.

Not perfect, and no, I'm not arguing for an enforceable quota system (which Rooney isn't, strictly speaking), but at least a recognition that race might be one of several factors (about which I fully agree with you) at work.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

I find it interesting that in such a cut throat, win at all costs, ruthless sport/business that every board of every club, everywhere is willing to put racism ahead of hiring successful black managers? Are they though, truly?

Unconscious bias at play almost certainly, but outright racism… hmm not buying it. How many successful white English managers are we having in the PL in comparison to other nations? Particularly at the sky 6? Are they racist against white English people too? Or perhaps they don’t view English managers as tactically as capable. Last one to win the league was a long, long time ago.

I think it’s reductive and an over-simplification to just say ‘racism’. I strongly suspect that if for example Kenya was churning out elite managers capable of winning the champions league every season then the boards of Wolves, Palace, Fulham etc… would soon be overcoming their alleged racism and snapping them up in an effort to scramble up the league.

Is Kompany going to get relegated due to racism? Did Nuno get fired because of it at Tottenham? Did Paul Ince fail to make it big as a manager because of ‘racism’?
I’m not sure, maybe partly but I don’t think so.

Is racism part of the problem, I’m sure it is, but using it as a one size fits all excuse is an over-simplification and denies the agency of the people mentioned above.

Unless of course I’m being racist now. I coach football… is my success or failure being influenced by my racial profile I wonder?

 

[Ercall Wolves]

Don’t you always have no experience if you don’t get offered a job? Sol Campbell had to start in league 2, where did his golden generation colleagues start?

Everyone has no experience until they get their first job. No idea off the top of my head where other golden generation(your words) guys started, I suggest many couldn’t even get a a league two job, so very well done to Sol

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Don’t you always have no experience if you don’t get offered a job? Sol Campbell had to start in league 2, where did his golden generation colleagues start?

Did Sol Campbell apply for the same jobs as his golden generation colleagues? Did he come across as well, was he as tactically astute? As engaging, as confident and confidence inspiring? Or is the only interesting and defining thing about him as a coach his skin colour, in your eyes… and any other qualities entirely ignored by the hiring clubs?
Has he subsequently proven his racist doubters wrong with his success?

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Did Sol Campbell apply for the same jobs as his golden generation colleagues? Did he come across as well, was he as tactically astute? As engaging, as confident and confidence inspiring? Or is the only interesting and defining thing about him as a coach his skin colour, in your eyes… and any other qualities entirely ignored by the hiring clubs?
Has he subsequently proven his racist doubters wrong with his success?

Sol Campbell has been very vocal about the amount of jobs he applied for without even getting an interview

 

[WolfLing]

Either that or bame individuals are not applying for jobs or said individuals are getting beaten to the job for no other reason than being less qualified or less experienced I guess, no other reason IMO

How many ex pros do you think actually apply for jobs? Especially high profile ones going straight into their first managerial roles.

Do you think Lampard had to apply for the Derby job, or that he was approached and sounded out about the position?

Same with Gerrard at Rangers, or Barton at Fleetwood, maybe even Sol Campbell at Notts County too. There probably won’t have been an official recruitment process.

 

[WolfLing]

Sol Campbell has been very vocal about the amount of jobs he applied for without even getting an interview

Dwight Yorke too. But I think we can assume he was discounted on the grounds of his disabled-child deserting character.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

I find it interesting that in such a cut throat, win at all costs, ruthless sport/business that every board of every club, everywhere is willing to put racism ahead of hiring successful black managers? Are they though, truly?

Unconscious bias at play almost certainly, but outright racism… hmm not buying it. How many successful white English managers are we having in the PL in comparison to other nations? Particularly at the sky 6? Are they racist against white English people too? Or perhaps they don’t view English managers as tactically as capable. Last one to win the league was a long, long time ago.

I think it’s reductive and an over-simplification to just say ‘racism’. I strongly suspect that if for example Kenya was churning out elite managers capable of winning the champions league every season then the boards of Wolves, Palace, Fulham etc… would soon be overcoming their alleged racism and snapping them up in an effort to scramble up the league.

Is Kompany going to get relegated due to racism? Did Nuno get fired because of it at Tottenham? Did Paul Ince fail to make it big as a manager because of ‘racism’?
I’m not sure, maybe partly but I don’t think so.

Is racism part of the problem, I’m sure it is, but using it as a one size fits all excuse is an over-simplification and denies the agency of the people mentioned above.

Unless of course I’m being racist now. I coach football… is my success or failure being influenced by my racial profile I wonder?

“Unconscious bias” always feels like a phrase used to excuse racism.

The trouble is you mention Nuno, Ince and Kompany because they are the VERY small minority of BAME managers at that level, balanced out by probably 100s of white coaches in the same period.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Did Sol Campbell apply for the same jobs as his golden generation colleagues? Did he come across as well, was he as tactically astute? As engaging, as confident and confidence inspiring? Or is the only interesting and defining thing about him as a coach his skin colour, in your eyes… and any other qualities entirely ignored by the hiring clubs?
Has he subsequently proven his racist doubters wrong with his success?

So it’s genuinely just a coincidence that there’s been a handful of BAME managers compared to white counterparts? why do you think BAME players leave the game when they stop playing??

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Dwight Yorke too. But I think we can assume he was discounted on the grounds of his disabled-child deserting character.

Rooney, Gerrard, Barton all did ok getting jobs despite questionable pasts. Since when have football clubs had morals??

 

[WolfLing]

I find it interesting that in such a cut throat, win at all costs, ruthless sport/business that every board of every club, everywhere is willing to put racism ahead of hiring successful black managers? Are they though, truly?

Unconscious bias at play almost certainly, but outright racism… hmm not buying it. How many successful white English managers are we having in the PL in comparison to other nations? Particularly at the sky 6? Are they racist against white English people too? Or perhaps they don’t view English managers as tactically as capable. Last one to win the league was a long, long time ago.

I think it’s reductive and an over-simplification to just say ‘racism’. I strongly suspect that if for example Kenya was churning out elite managers capable of winning the champions league every season then the boards of Wolves, Palace, Fulham etc… would soon be overcoming their alleged racism and snapping them up in an effort to scramble up the league.

Is Kompany going to get relegated due to racism? Did Nuno get fired because of it at Tottenham? Did Paul Ince fail to make it big as a manager because of ‘racism’?
I’m not sure, maybe partly but I don’t think so.

Is racism part of the problem, I’m sure it is, but using it as a one size fits all excuse is an over-simplification and denies the agency of the people mentioned above.

Unless of course I’m being racist now. I coach football… is my success or failure being influenced by my racial profile I wonder?

I think we need to examine what people mean by racism.

Are there any situations where a person is categorically denied a position because they are black? Probably very, very rare nowadays. Hopefully that blatant, individual racism was stamped out of the game long ago.

Racism is a strong word and racism of today is nothing compared to the blatant racism of the past. It’s probably more ‘institutional unconscious bias!’ that’s the main issue today.

We live in a society where past decisions and precious discriminatory recruitment practices still make it more difficult for black people to be presented with the same opportunities as white people.

If you don’t think that’s the case, think about a situation where you could be looking for work, and the network of people you would reach out to. Or if you were looking for someone to work for/with you, and the network of people you would reach out to. It’s self perpetuating.

Over time it will change, but it won’t change fast enough without some sort of change to the system itself.

 

[WickedWolfie]

I think we need to examine what people mean by racism.

Are there any situations where a person is categorically denied a position because they are black? Probably very, very rare nowadays. Hopefully that blatant, individual racism was stamped out of the game long ago.

Racism is a strong word and racism of today is nothing compared to the blatant racism of the past. It’s probably more ‘institutional unconscious bias!’ that’s the main issue today.

We live in a society where past decisions and precious discriminatory recruitment practices still make it more difficult for black people to be presented with the same opportunities as white people.

If you don’t think that’s the case, think about a situation where you could be looking for work, and the network of people you would reach out to. Or if you were looking for someone to work for/with you, and the network of people you would reach out to. It’s self perpetuating.

Over time it will change, but it won’t change fast enough without some sort of change to the system itself.

In my view you are right to a large extent but there is still more overt racist behaviour than you might expect. Put it this way, when l met an African partner l found quite a lot she was exposed to eye-opening (and not in a good way) or down right unacceptable.

 

[WolfLing]

In my view you are right to a large extent but there is still more overt racist behaviour than you might expect. Put it this way, when l met an African partner l found quite a lot she was exposed to eye-opening (and not in a good way) or down right unacceptable.

Yeah, in the lower leagues, in less professional setups, I’d imagine it’s far more rife.

Can imagine there’s a lot of situations where those in charge may have joked about interviewing Sol Campbell or Paul Ince to ‘tick a box’.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

So because it happens we should just accept it?

What do you propose doing about it, and homophobia and anti-semitism and sexual abuse and ...............? Ask for a report, a commission, an inquiry? Just a load of talk, that takes years to report and then nothing happens. I'm 72 and I've come to realise over the years, for better or worse, in this country nothing really changes. You can jump up and down, scream as loud as you like but going back to the thread old white guys will still run the show, black footballers will not make it in big numbers to become managers; that's just the way it is. I admire people who agitate for change but at the end of the day imo its just talk and fine words.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Sol Campbell has been very vocal about the amount of jobs he applied for without even getting an interview

Perhaps he wasn't good enough?

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

you really should read the article:

“despite black players making up 25% of Uefa-issued coaching qualifications, in 2022 and 2023, they only accounted for 4% of all managerial roles”…

that one statistic alone is enough to indicate there is a problem.

diversity is not just the right thing to do, it also gets better results and a better society because all needs and points of view are considered.

Your last sentence, as well meaning as it is, is just talk and fine words.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I think we need to examine what people mean by racism.

Are there any situations where a person is categorically denied a position because they are black? Probably very, very rare nowadays. Hopefully that blatant, individual racism was stamped out of the game long ago.

Racism is a strong word and racism of today is nothing compared to the blatant racism of the past. It’s probably more ‘institutional unconscious bias!’ that’s the main issue today.

We live in a society where past decisions and precious discriminatory recruitment practices still make it more difficult for black people to be presented with the same opportunities as white people.

If you don’t think that’s the case, think about a situation where you could be looking for work, and the network of people you would reach out to. Or if you were looking for someone to work for/with you, and the network of people you would reach out to. It’s self perpetuating.

Over time it will change, but it won’t change fast enough without some sort of change to the system itself.

'without some sort of change to the system itself' - sounds to me like the guff politicians say all the time; talk and fine words. What they never say is how this is to happen?

 

[SingleMalt]

Perhaps he wasn't good enough?

Maybe he wasn’t and maybe they all aren’t, but that would beg the question why? Why would black players at the end of their careers not have acquired the same skills that their white counterparts have? Are they given the same roles and responsibilities at youth levels? Are they given the opportunities to develop the strength of character that management requires? Those are difficult questions to answer but given that fairly recently it was openly believed that black players were less intelligent than white ones I’d guess that they weren’t given the same foundations that white players were.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

In my view you are right to a large extent but there is still more overt racist behaviour than you might expect. Put it this way, when l met an African partner l found quite a lot she was exposed to eye-opening (and not in a good way) or down right unacceptable.

The thing is when we discuss issues like this we discuss them one to another as hopefully mature, well adjusted individuals. We don't and possibly can't speak for the thousands of uneducated, thick morons out there who spout the bile. These people will always exist.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Maybe he wasn’t and maybe they all aren’t, but that would beg the question why? Why would black players at the end of their careers not have acquired the same skills that their white counterparts have? Are they given the same roles and responsibilities at youth levels? Are they given the opportunities to develop the strength of character that management requires? Those are difficult questions to answer but given that fairly recently it was openly believed that black players were less intelligent than white ones I’d guess that they weren’t given the same foundations that white players were.

(Black players) 'weren't given the same foundations that white players were'. What does that actually mean? Sorry, but more talk and fine words. With an election coming up there are many on here who have the makings to become decent politicians!

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

What do you propose doing about it, and homophobia and anti-semitism and sexual abuse and ...............? Ask for a report, a commission, an inquiry? Just a load of talk, that takes years to report and then nothing happens. I'm 72 and I've come to realise over the years, for better or worse, in this country nothing really changes. You can jump up and down, scream as loud as you like but going back to the thread old white guys will still run the show, black footballers will not make it in big numbers to become managers; that's just the way it is. I admire people who agitate for change but at the end of the day imo its just talk and fine words.

Easy to say when you aren’t a minority

 

[JEVS WWFC 1877]

The BBC article states that Nuno is black - curious, never considered him to be black before.

I never considered him to be anything other than Nuno to be honest.

 

[loppers86]

Your last sentence, as well meaning as it is, is just talk and fine words.

no it’s not. it genuinely produces better results. i have worked for some of the largest and most successful companies in the world and diversity is a foundation of their current strategy.

 

[Evthewolf]

Things can be twisted any which way nowadays to suit agendas and they are, constantly.

Compare the amount of Black managers in the Prem to those in Serie A, La liga, Bundesliga, French div 1. All very similar.
So has everyone got the same agenda or are managers picked on merit?

Back in the Seventies (when things were different), there was literally a handful of black players in Div 1. Now there’s plenty and in another 10-15 years, I think they will make up the majority so doesn’t seem to be an agenda there.

I am not making a case for either side, just posting for a bit of balance. If a manager proves his worth, I am pretty sure the colour of the skin will not affect his career.

 

[Ned]

Don’t you always have no experience if you don’t get offered a job? Sol Campbell had to start in league 2, where did his golden generation colleagues start?

I agree with your points but please don’t use Sol Campbell as an example. The bloke is clearly a very, very strange individual.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Easy to say when you aren’t a minority

In anything there will always be a majority and a minority. Again, that's life; there's nothing you can do about that?

 

[WickedWolfie]

What do you propose doing about it, and homophobia and anti-semitism and sexual abuse and ...............? Ask for a report, a commission, an inquiry? Just a load of talk, that takes years to report and then nothing happens. I'm 72 and I've come to realise over the years, for better or worse, in this country nothing really changes. You can jump up and down, scream as loud as you like but going back to the thread old white guys will still run the show, black footballers will not make it in big numbers to become managers; that's just the way it is. I admire people who agitate for change but at the end of the day imo its just talk and fine words.

For sure nothing will change and improve if good people don't challenge injustice and unfairness. Thankfully our forefathers didn't take such a supine attitude.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

For sure nothing will change and improve if good people don't challenge injustice and unfairness. Thankfully our forefathers didn't take such a supine attitude.

I don't think you can compare racism today with say slavery or Hitler or the Holocaust? I think the point I'm making, perhaps not very well, is that it's good to challenge things but you have to come up with solutions or at least action plans otherwise, like on here, it's just words.

 

[SingleMalt]

(Black players) 'weren't given the same foundations that white players were'. What does that actually mean? Sorry, but more talk and fine words. With an election coming up there are many on here who have the makings to become decent politicians!

I said that I’d guess that they weren’t because it was openly believed that they were less intelligent and therefore probably not given the same roles and responsibilities that white players were whilst coming up through the system.
You don’t just become a good manager. The skills needed are learned, and the more opportunities you have to learn, the better manager you become. If black players are not given the same learning opportunities as white ones then it stands to reason that they will succeed less later on.