Everton, surely a points deduction?

[WickedWolfie]

It's actual money in his pocket rather than tied up in as asset though I guess? I mean theoretically he owns something like 30% of a £3b club, but that doesn't help when it's his round at the bar.

Just to correct my earlier post as he just randomly appeared on the news being sentenced for insider trading(!) apparently Joe Lewis's ownership is now in an independent trust.

That's the Joe Lewis who was just convicted of insider trading in the US l assume....

 

[GoldenHorseshoe]

That's the Joe Lewis who was just convicted of insider trading in the US l assume....

The very same, some how or another avoided prison time.

 

[brianm]

Villa fans at work reckon they will ignore any problems with FFP looming with there accounts for this season....not sell anybody by the end of June and just take the points deduction next year....why put yourself at a disadvantage when all the rules seem to be changing.....just take the 4-6 points......

To be fair with the current situation it is one way of looking at it....

But if they're in Europe, won't they get ****ed there?

I guess I don't know if that's just a fine.

The incompetence of all this just does my head in....

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Villa fans at work reckon they will ignore any problems with FFP looming with there accounts for this season....not sell anybody by the end of June and just take the points deduction next year....why put yourself at a disadvantage when all the rules seem to be changing.....just take the 4-6 points......

To be fair with the current situation it is one way of looking at it....

Yes, for me the sanction just isn't enough the way it is. Break the limits by £50m say and be honest about it, lose 4 points. You've potentially got say 3 £50m players on your books being amortised at £10m with £20m wages. If that's not worth 4 points you've done something wrong!

 

[lets all have a disco]

But if they're in Europe, won't they get ****ed there?

I guess I don't know if that's just a fine.

The incompetence of all this just does my head in....

It's just mess.....as I say you would like them to hammer villa cause just like Everton they have pushed the rules for years.....but at the minute you could blame them if they just went , so what give us the 4-6 points....

 

[brianm]

Proposed rule amendments
First offence: 10 point deduction
Second offence: auto-relegation OR ownership must sell up within 180 days.
Third offence: prison for the ownership
Fourth offence: invade the country of origin for the owner.
Fifth offence:

 

[SA Wolf]

Proposed rule amendments
First offence: 10 point deduction
Second offence: auto-relegation OR ownership must sell up within 180 days.
Third offence: prison for the ownership
Fourth offence: invade the country of origin for the owner.
Fifth offence:

Yay, an Independent Regulator, worthy of the name. When can you start?

 

[rincewind]

Proposed rule amendments
First offence: 10 point deduction
Second offence: auto-relegation OR ownership must sell up within 180 days.
Third offence: prison for the ownership
Fourth offence: invade the country of origin for the owner.
Fifth offence:

Fifth offence is missing but may be nuclear strikes?

 

[CelebrityWolf]

The farce rolls on. Now a fine not points the likely voted in proposal. Sounds fair

Man City to get off, what a shock.

 

[GoldenHorseshoe]

Fifth offence is missing but may be nuclear strikes?

Let's not be too specific, WMD?

 

[lobodelsur]

But if they're in Europe, won't they get ****ed there?

In theory, yes. After all we got a (small) financial penalty when we qualified under Nuno and had our (potential) squad reduced from 25 to 23 players had we qualified again. But the way this thing is panning out they'll probably be welcomed on board and given a bye to the quarter finals...

 

[kidder_wolf_II]

The farce rolls on. Now a fine not points the likely voted in proposal. Sounds fair

Man City to get off, what a shock.

You are aware that Man City’s charges are much more serious than simply admitting to breaking FFP don’t you?

Even if the punishments for FFP are replaced with a luxury tax (they won’t be) firstly any club charged with breaking FFP will be punished by the current guidelines at the time (ie Leicester) and Man City will be facing much stronger charges due to how they avoided breaking FFP by over inflating sponsorship deals and secret payments to employees which didn’t go through the clubs books.

 

[Jefe]

You are aware that Man City’s charges are much more serious than simply admitting to breaking FFP don’t you?

Even if the punishments for FFP are replaced with a luxury tax (they won’t be) firstly any club charged with breaking FFP will be punished by the current guidelines at the time (ie Leicester) and Man City will be facing much stronger charges due to how they avoided breaking FFP by over inflating sponsorship deals and secret payments to employees which didn’t go through the clubs books.

Was about to say, City's misdeeds exist outside of breaching FFP in the traditional manner. A luxury tax however would be a very convenient tonic for the storm clouds forming over Spurs, Chelsea, Newcastle and Villa...

 

[Jefe]

I like the idea @Skrilla. As @WickedWolfie said there would need to be an alignment with UEFA rules, and one other restriction I would impose is that spending over the cap is not only ‘taxed’ but must be funded by equity, not debt. Then, if things go pop, which they will at some point, only the owner gets burnt and not the local tradesmen/suppliers who always lose out in football administrations at the expense of football creditors.

I'm all for it, if it means Fosun can no longer hide behind the 'Wolves being deducted points for going a single pound over the FFP threshold' excuse to not spend. If we go one pound over the threshold, we will be fined a percentage of said pound. That would be a true test of Fosun's ambition for the club.

 

[glorybox]

Fifth offence is missing but may be nuclear strikes?

Merge with the A!b$on..?

 

[hollo]

Bournemouth spent 84 million last season on players and 120 million this season. Very little in way of sales. Are they going to be in trouble for the 23/24 period? The players they could sell generally cost 20 million each.

 

[rincewind]

Merge with the A!b$on..?

That's a bit too harsh.

 

[SeaWolf]

Fifth offence is missing but may be nuclear strikes?

Trouble is, only the top 4 or 5 can afford a nuclear deterrent.

 

[JadeWolf]

Club release annual accounts

AFC Bournemouth Limited has filed its annual accounts for the year ending 30th June 2022.

www.afcb.co.uk

Club release annual accounts for 2023

Financial statements for the year ended 30 June 2023 have been released, with the club recording pre-tax profits of £44.5m (2022: loss of £55.5m).

www.afcb.co.uk

 

[wolfslair]

Bournemouth spent 84 million last season on players and 120 million this season. Very little in way of sales. Are they going to be in trouble for the 23/24 period? The players they could sell generally cost 20 million each.

Solanke will go for way more than £20m and that will help them no end FFP wise

 

[Middlesex Mixer]

Club release annual accounts

AFC Bournemouth Limited has filed its annual accounts for the year ending 30th June 2022.

www.afcb.co.uk

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/KA3F7fS2Y82uQNPI3_x8TtCpZf2B33ImRoyptKnboHc/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3JBWLNZAQ%2F20240406%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240406T082820Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEI7%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJHMEUCIC1m%2FreKCRqZcEtxLJzY1obiwN%2FSWj758jEfoAlFDnbkAiEAzra07tFmoQhErAp3DaJd67HurpvZtdabMzNpT6svbPIqxAUIt%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FARAFGgw0NDkyMjkwMzI4MjIiDNZlLid9qtmGG4ywhiqYBUONbRy3FNses589k6EBpHs%2FJ6oRVK29Kwf3vZUpbaDDiOwniZfwLETBh3AGxkGM%2BAVyoOsYI5Yhkpv2KjV6U%2BWAUIaco2uokyXj3dHMIp4HjS3EEir11fBf%2BMtnxF%2BRndyaiy4WyaptwKeInHO6XJ89ogSq%2BNLnATyfAW2C89FuLezOS%2B6z288%2B2Xau8oT2G7xMJKgkXZCZIikbrtLHIetg5fORtuDLOHQLqyrKYnqtQ3EG6qbEHCoRu6loZDC7ujQpBXnPBvRfkJPCFEJYnXQaLj3PALo7y6TCuc7ROmfV%2FdQttkk7Izb%2B068nwAMM0uxLcf95CLoQdUUt5rjBdxX0cm%2F%2Fee8QdwuCNOtLgwAxuMpWpTYYOrlUPtZE483ywJuzjC6kVbo%2BDhhHuo6RtFWENaeAHPksPcCyC2U%2BCZ380%2FiwzlBVPyorwjBXj%2FzArvQK7nRVmdfGMQP6kvI3q8RzPw%2B%2F1VTHkEQ9H3I0BZPLrd2ByvHQ7Ktzx16WMXU24JVk7d%2F%2FGkiFSILoPpmHSxdlqKpCGBEjJmcCJ%2BYfEDGt9onKbatVNZE8oRoQVRZBE0jDyddTvtJh5CUyg1svkxPLAVwbBBd3B6tSQUA4mUSHiZ16jC0x5TAot5PshoqLNau36VHVV62U74lIbBhuMs5D7veNRmOCMYs32KV4o%2BhMfW2GthgS1Im8nTfNYPAsXnOocV%2BsRyXlIruqcfw6DFpMF6YXmo9Ks031WkTZvE5YRROtwrsJ4mWaAlg7Sri6bk6IrM0FMIA1Gf0PaBVTyIP%2BEhSVxyFH%2BnLsjVuhAuZzXxM5bEeoupQXutX74jsV9%2FGhLntGAHagVv8kHYqBJO7B3FQ2FDR1bsbI33zyYI%2Bds6tOfSBpEr0w3MPDsAY6sQH6TAfqOQdTRjrnQY87v6R7m49pyCJh56apkOJvN8W96j1pVzYoUh%2FL4ctampXfoMxf0%2Fp0E5fPFYN1zA9iVsCQfi4pZYH7OmHBpQcZEBuqCFCNNPumz7vHY1akMam8dabOnuHuOZrfIXyWIsBaxoSCPhplGFyGkL60pOQrd1Z3Jy4uNJMelkAOZk%2BcdeEJb2gKQE%2FBUsPqchYN%2BswGoIqolrSrQ%2Bw5KokR%2BACW5hsGi8c%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22companies_house_document.pdf%22&X-Amz-Signature=bf5cacca174918d1849624bfbcb1bb2588d211f3234f9d67e5c71a3d349b469b

Loss of £55m for 21/22, profit of £45m for 22/23, so they should be ok.

That link doesn’t seem to work. Maybe you could check to see if you’ve left out a hyphen or something?

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Club release annual accounts

AFC Bournemouth Limited has filed its annual accounts for the year ending 30th June 2022.

www.afcb.co.uk

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/KA3F7fS2Y82uQNPI3_x8TtCpZf2B33ImRoyptKnboHc/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3JBWLNZAQ%2F20240406%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240406T082820Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEI7%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJHMEUCIC1m%2FreKCRqZcEtxLJzY1obiwN%2FSWj758jEfoAlFDnbkAiEAzra07tFmoQhErAp3DaJd67HurpvZtdabMzNpT6svbPIqxAUIt%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FARAFGgw0NDkyMjkwMzI4MjIiDNZlLid9qtmGG4ywhiqYBUONbRy3FNses589k6EBpHs%2FJ6oRVK29Kwf3vZUpbaDDiOwniZfwLETBh3AGxkGM%2BAVyoOsYI5Yhkpv2KjV6U%2BWAUIaco2uokyXj3dHMIp4HjS3EEir11fBf%2BMtnxF%2BRndyaiy4WyaptwKeInHO6XJ89ogSq%2BNLnATyfAW2C89FuLezOS%2B6z288%2B2Xau8oT2G7xMJKgkXZCZIikbrtLHIetg5fORtuDLOHQLqyrKYnqtQ3EG6qbEHCoRu6loZDC7ujQpBXnPBvRfkJPCFEJYnXQaLj3PALo7y6TCuc7ROmfV%2FdQttkk7Izb%2B068nwAMM0uxLcf95CLoQdUUt5rjBdxX0cm%2F%2Fee8QdwuCNOtLgwAxuMpWpTYYOrlUPtZE483ywJuzjC6kVbo%2BDhhHuo6RtFWENaeAHPksPcCyC2U%2BCZ380%2FiwzlBVPyorwjBXj%2FzArvQK7nRVmdfGMQP6kvI3q8RzPw%2B%2F1VTHkEQ9H3I0BZPLrd2ByvHQ7Ktzx16WMXU24JVk7d%2F%2FGkiFSILoPpmHSxdlqKpCGBEjJmcCJ%2BYfEDGt9onKbatVNZE8oRoQVRZBE0jDyddTvtJh5CUyg1svkxPLAVwbBBd3B6tSQUA4mUSHiZ16jC0x5TAot5PshoqLNau36VHVV62U74lIbBhuMs5D7veNRmOCMYs32KV4o%2BhMfW2GthgS1Im8nTfNYPAsXnOocV%2BsRyXlIruqcfw6DFpMF6YXmo9Ks031WkTZvE5YRROtwrsJ4mWaAlg7Sri6bk6IrM0FMIA1Gf0PaBVTyIP%2BEhSVxyFH%2BnLsjVuhAuZzXxM5bEeoupQXutX74jsV9%2FGhLntGAHagVv8kHYqBJO7B3FQ2FDR1bsbI33zyYI%2Bds6tOfSBpEr0w3MPDsAY6sQH6TAfqOQdTRjrnQY87v6R7m49pyCJh56apkOJvN8W96j1pVzYoUh%2FL4ctampXfoMxf0%2Fp0E5fPFYN1zA9iVsCQfi4pZYH7OmHBpQcZEBuqCFCNNPumz7vHY1akMam8dabOnuHuOZrfIXyWIsBaxoSCPhplGFyGkL60pOQrd1Z3Jy4uNJMelkAOZk%2BcdeEJb2gKQE%2FBUsPqchYN%2BswGoIqolrSrQ%2Bw5KokR%2BACW5hsGi8c%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22companies_house_document.pdf%22&X-Amz-Signature=bf5cacca174918d1849624bfbcb1bb2588d211f3234f9d67e5c71a3d349b469b

Loss of £55m for 21/22, profit of £45m for 22/23, so they should be ok.

Sure they'll be fine, but those figures are somewhat muddied by the write off of a £71m loan I think. Wages and amortisation was at over 100% of revenue.

 

[SquaddieWolf]

Merge with the A!b$on..?

Bit close to us for a nuclear strike, an EXACTOR to the Poorthornes will do nicely

 

[JadeWolf]

That link doesn’t seem to work. Maybe you could check to see if you’ve left out a hyphen or something?

Changed it now!

So basically yeah, their owners wrote off about £70m of debt, so instead of £80m losses over the two years it’s only £10m. Without that, given what they’ve spent this year they’d be in trouble.

 

[Bawtry Wolf]

Changed it now!

So basically yeah, their owners wrote off about £70m of debt, so instead of £80m losses over the two years it’s only £10m. Without that, given what they’ve spent this year they’d be in trouble.

That’s what Fosun have done for us before. Turned debt into equity and we posted a healthy profit during 20/21 COVID season.

 

[JadeWolf]

That’s what Fosun have done for us before. Turned debt into equity and we posted a healthy profit during 20/21 COVID season.

Yeah, it’s one way of doing it I guess.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Changed it now!

So basically yeah, their owners wrote off about £70m of debt, so instead of £80m losses over the two years it’s only £10m. Without that, given what they’ve spent this year they’d be in trouble.

I don't know if that actually works for PSR though, surely Fosun could just lend us £50m a year and then write it off if that was allowed for the calculation rather than the accounts? (If they wanted to!)

 

[jackdusty]

Journalist on X saying Everton find out in the morning then a League press release around midday, get the popcorn ready folks.

 

[kidder_wolf_II]

Journalist on X saying Everton find out in the morning then a League press release around midday, get the popcorn ready folks.

A 4 point deduction will put them, Forest and Luton all on the same points.

Makes for an interesting relegation battle

 

[Rabid Wolf]

A 4 point deduction will put them, Forest and Luton all on the same points.

Makes for an interesting relegation battle

Will it be 4? I'm guessing 2 as the points deductions have been a joke so far.

 

[Wolf316]

Will it be 4? I'm guessing 2 as the points deductions have been a joke so far.

It’ll be the four that they got back on appeal.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

It’ll be the four that they got back on appeal.

I was hoping for another 9 and another 4 for wasting time appealing

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

If you breach the rules you should be relegated .

Simple as that IMO.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

If you breach the rules you should be relegated .

Simple as that IMO.

Absolutely they have cheated!

 

[glorybox]

I don't know if that actually works for PSR though, surely Fosun could just lend us £50m a year and then write it off if that was allowed for the calculation rather than the accounts? (If they wanted to!)

Converting loans to equity isn’t the same as writing off the debt. If they write off the debt then I believe that is allowable up to a limit..? Converting loans to equity merely improves the balance sheet value of the company, it doesn’t affect profits/losses.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Converting loans to equity isn’t the same as writing off the debt. If they write off the debt then I believe that is allowable up to a limit..? Converting loans to equity merely improves the balance sheet value of the company, it doesn’t affect profits/losses.

Thanks, I don't really understand how though. If Guo loans us £100m in June and writes it off next March are you saying that's OK under PSR, because that doesn't make sense to me? Isn't the limit basically the £105m you can lose over 3 years?

 

[Rubberball]

Thanks, I don't really understand how though. If Guo loans us £100m in June and writes it off next March are you saying that's OK under PSR, because that doesn't make sense to me? Isn't the limit basically the £105m you can lose over 3 years?

The loan wouldn't count at all. It's what we do with the money that would count.

If we were haemorrhaging money on the stadium and Fosun decided to inject cash to repair or upgrade (stop laughing) then that wouldn't count towards FFP/PSR

But if we spent that loan on players and their wages it would.

This is what Everton are arguing at the moment.

 

[Very Proud (AKA Still Proud)]

I may be in a minority but I hope that Man City blow a huge gaping hole through FFP. Its a farce that PGMOL have cost us more points this season than if we'd have ignored FFP and kept Neves, Nunes and spent big on a number 9 in the summer.

VAR and FFP are just stifling any remnant of competition left in our national game. Any business with legally sourced investment (e.g. not the proceeds of crime) should be able to put in what it wants to achieve its goals. Fosun should, for example be able to use its reserves to pump prime us whenever it feels it needs to.

The only thing we need to do is protect that investment from ever putting at risk the club's existence, for example in the event of any administration any loan by the owner becomes null and void. I know funding models aren't always that simple, but you get the gist.

I hope Man City expose it as a restraint of trade and we sack the whole thing off.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

The loan wouldn't count at all. It's what we do with the money that would count.

If we were haemorrhaging money on the stadium and Fosun decided to inject cash to repair or upgrade (stop laughing) then that wouldn't count towards FFP/PSR

But if we spent that loan on players and their wages it would.

This is what Everton are arguing at the moment.

Yes, the ground..... holding my breath. The original point was about Bournemouth though, they did spend more than their income on player costs, but made a profit on their books from writing off money previously loaned by the owner, so if we're trying to work out their financial position can we see that as an actual profit for PSR?

 

[Rubberball]

Yes, the ground..... holding my breath. The original point was about Bournemouth though, they did spend more than their income on player costs, but made a profit on their books from writing off money previously loaned by the owner, so if we're trying to work out their financial position can we see that as an actual profit for PSR?

This is the bit I'm confused about as new owners are allowed to inject cash to not count against PSR. To what level I don't know.

The loan, like ours will not count for PSR purposes so they could be in trouble next year but the rules are murky on this.