Coady or Dawson?

[Flaneur]

The disrespect he gets is shameful. Loyalty is very much a one way street when it comes to most fans

We signed a 21 y/o cb in Collins, he got told we were playing a four and he might just have to "fight" for his place for the first time in years, and his response instead of being up for the challenge was to jump ship at the first hurdle!

Good servant under Nuno, but we don't miss him at all.

 

[Flump]

We signed a 21 y/o cb in Collins, he got told we were playing a four and he might just have to "fight" for his place for the first time in years, and his response instead of being up for the challenge was to jump ship at the first hurdle!

Good servant under Nuno, but we don't miss him at all.

I think you missed out the part where he got told he wasn't rated as part of a back 4 (quite rightly), rather than he that "might just have to fight for his place".

It's a fairly simple situation, IMO, there's no need to attach all this emotional "he didn't have the stomach for a fight" to it.

• We wanted to play with a back 4
• Coady is only good in a back 5
• Therefore, it's quite a small logical leap to think it's better for us to get some money for him, and better for him to get some football elsewhere as part of a back 5.

 

[LosgallardosWolf]

Who would you rather have in your defence?

I’m afraid to say Dawson, Coady’s days are gone

 

[chignalwolf]

I think you missed out the part where he got told he wasn't rated as part of a back 4 (quite rightly), rather than he that "might just have to fight for his place".

It's a fairly simple situation, IMO, there's no need to attach all this emotional "he didn't have the stomach for a fight" to it.

• We wanted to play with a back 4
• Coady is only good in a back 5
• Therefore, it's quite a small logical leap to think it's better for us to get some money for him, and better for him to get some football elsewhere as part of a back 5.

think there is room for both, coaches need to change formation at times during a match,
If the question was Collins or Coady I'd go for Coady, Dawson is Quality and its showed since he came to the club.

 

[JH1902]

Dawson, all day every day.

 

[Macman]

Thought Dawson was immense last night.

one question though, when the South Bank were singing his name (and he clapped back), what was the song?
He used to be sh1te, but now he’s alright….
or
he played for the sh1te, but now he’s alright?

hope it was the latter?!

 

[SuperGran]

The latter he played for the ****e but now he’s alright

 

[Macman]

The latter he played for the ****e but now he’s alright

Phew, thanks. Where i was sat in the BW stand, it sounded like the former which made me think why is he clapping back?! Hes never been sh1te for us!

 

[Stafford]

Dawson is a great stop in, and brilliant choice for steadying the ship

Coady offers more in progressive play for a team aspiring to be higher up, but has to be played in a certain system. Also a great leader and organiser of people.

A fair comparison will be at the end of both players cycles at the club. Unfair to judge purely upto the point where they become not good enough for the team. Peak Coady when we made it into Europer FA cup semi etc. was held in higher regard.

One day soon.. maybe mid next season. We will suddenly deicide we need a more progressive defender than Dawson to 'progress'. These things go in cycles.

 

[TheConcourse]

His passing range last night in the first half was outrageous. 4/5 brilliant long balls.

 

[Perton Wolf]

Dawson is a great stop in, and brilliant choice for steadying the ship

Coady offers more in progressive play for a team aspiring to be higher up, but has to be played in a certain system. Also a great leader and organiser of people.

A fair comparison will be at the end of both players cycles at the club. Unfair to judge purely upto the point where they become not good enough for the team. Peak Coady when we made it into Europer FA cup semi etc. was held in higher regard.

One day soon.. maybe mid next season. We will suddenly deicide we need a more progressive defender than Dawson to 'progress'. These things go in cycles.

No he doesn't, there's a reason he can't break into an awful Everton side and was shipped out by us in the Summer. Coady will be plying his trade in the Champ soon enough, or maybe for a newly promoted side who want to play a 5 at the back.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

Silly question really because it so ambigious and its a loaded question anyway. It would be like saying who would you play as a sweeper in a back 3, Coady or Dawson. Only 1 answer. As a center half in a back 4, only 1 answer.

I'd happily have Coady back playing alongside Dawson and another in a three. Coady dropped when playing a four.

It's how I saw Coady bring utilized before the club threw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Perton Wolf]

His passing range last night in the first half was outrageous. 4/5 brilliant long balls.

But apparently Coady is more 'progressive', or whatever that means for a CB.

 

[Stafford]

No he doesn't, there's a reason he can't break into an awful Everton side and was shipped out by us in the Summer. Coady will be plying his trade in the Champ soon enough, or maybe for a newly promoted side who want to play a 5 at the back.

Dawson has had plenty of periods on the bench at West Ham? These things go in cycles. I very much doubt this will be it for Coady in the Premier league.

Both players have had careers playing for bottom Prem upper championship, with a couple of successfull seasons in the top half.

Cycles.

 

[Perton Wolf]

Dawson has had plenty of periods on the bench at West Ham? These things go in cycles. I very much doubt this will be it for Coady in the Premier league.

Both players have had careers playing for bottom Prem upper championship, with a couple of successfull seasons in the top half.

Cycles.

You really think Coady has a future in the Prem? Considering how few teams' primary system is a 5.

Coady had success in Nuno's system in a specialised role and that's it, outside of that he's been a mediocre Championship CM.

 

[Stafford]

You really think Coady has a future in the Prem? Considering how few teams' primary system is a 5.

Coady had success in Nuno's system in a specialised role and that's it, outside of that he's been a mediocre Championship CM.

Yeh, of course he has a future in the Prem.

 

[greco wolf]

can't believe this is even a debate. Dawson head and shoulders above Coady (and I liked Coady) - one of the reasons we have done so well since he signed

 

[Perton Wolf]

Yeh, of course he has a future in the Prem.

Interested to see if that's the case considering that he can't even break into a very poor Everton side.

 

[Stafford]

can't believe this is even a debate. Dawson head and shoulders above Coady (and I liked Coady) - one of the reasons we have done so well since he signed

But would you have said that when we were at our peak, recency bias makes all decisions easy.
We seem it time and time again.
New player is far better than the previous player, who tailed off at the end of their career. Yet we keep getting worse.

See Doherty Semedo.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

No he doesn't, there's a reason he can't break into an awful Everton side and was shipped out by us in the Summer. Coady will be plying his trade in the Champ soon enough, or maybe for a newly promoted side who want to play a 5 at the back.

With Coady in the Everton team they have 21 points in 22 games. Without him they have 7 points in 10 games.

I'm not sure dropping him is the win you think it is.

 

[Stafford]

Interested to see if that's the case considering that he can't even break into a very poor Everton side.

Because it happens, he got dropped here, then performed well at Everton.
Dawson got dropped at West Ham, performed well here.

It's obvious Coady wouldn't be a Sean Dyche player.

Dawson has clearly had a better season than Coady, but it doesn't define their past seasons, or seasons going forward.

 

[Perton Wolf]

With Coady in the Everton team they have 21 points in 22 games. Without him they have 7 points in 10 games.

I'm not sure dropping him is the win you think it is.

I watched a number of their games with him when they attempted to play in a 4 and he looked as out of his depth as he did for us when we tried the same.

 

[Perton Wolf]

Because it happens, he got dropped here, then performed well at Everton.
Dawson got dropped at West Ham, performed well here.

It's obvious Coady wouldn't be a Sean Dyche player.

Dawson has clearly had a better season than Coady, but it doesn't define their past seasons, or seasons going forward.

Dawson is quite simply a better defender, which will define their respective career paths from this point onwards. Coady has been found out unfortunately but can be grateful for the career he's had at PL level, which is an overachievement he pretty much owes to Nuno.

 

[Contrarian]

With Coady in the Everton team they have 21 points in 22 games. Without him they have 7 points in 10 games.

I'm not sure dropping him is the win you think it is.

Who did they play in those games, though? Win their next match and it doesn't look so bad.

 

[WolfLing]

But would you have said that when we were at our peak, recency bias makes all decisions easy.
We seem it time and time again.
New player is far better than the previous player, who tailed off at the end of their career. Yet we keep getting worse.

See Doherty Semedo.

But Doherty and Coady were both players who benefitted from playing in a side that was infinitely better than the sum of its parts. They rode the wave of success and made hay while the sun shined on us for a few seasons under Nuno.

They both had defined roles, in a defined style and both performed excellently in those roles.

Football moves on. Roles adapt. Both these players have proven that they are not as effective trying to replicate the roles they performed in a different setup or environment.

Better players adapt better. Semedo has slotted in seamlessly to a back 4. If anything he looks better there than in a back 5.

Dawson would have been sublime on the right side of our 3 centre backs under Nuno. But he's just as effective in a back 4 too.

So yes, I agree that there is some 'recency bias' with regards to Semedo and Dawson. But there's just as much 'part of a functioning system bias' for Doherty and Coady. Ask both to do the roles of Semedo and Dawson now and they'd be nowhere near.

 

[greco wolf]

But would you have said that when we were at our peak, recency bias makes all decisions easy.
We seem it time and time again.
New player is far better than the previous player, who tailed off at the end of their career. Yet we keep getting worse.

See Doherty Semedo.

I 'm saying right now I wouldn't have COady over Dawson

Dawson is a better defender

 

[Stafford]

Dawson is quite simply a better defender, which will define their respective career paths from this point onwards. Coady has been found out unfortunately but can be grateful for the career he's had at PL level, which is an overachievement he pretty much owes to Nuno.

Why would Nuno want to favour or help out Coady?

Coady owes Nuno as much as Nuno owes Coady, they were a great team, good things come to an end.

Nuno saw and utilised Coadys best attributes, which made us a team play above and beyond. The same as Lupo uses Dawsons attributes, doesn't mean either of those players could have just been replaced by someone else and managed.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

In addition I think Dawson has a physicality and streak of, nastiness isnt the right word, maybe toughness that Kilman and Toti need to pick up on

I get what you are saying. He'll foul someone when it is the right thing to do. Think the others might be too "nice" in that regard.

 

[Perton Wolf]

Why would Nuno want to favour or help out Coady?

Coady owes Nuno as much as Nuno owes Coady, they were a great team, good things come to an end.

Nuno saw and utilised Coadys best attributes, which made us a team play above and beyond. The same as Lupo uses Dawsons attributes, doesn't mean either of those players could have just been replaced by someone else and managed.

I never said he did, I said that Coady owes his PL career to Nuno and he does. If Nuno had never come here, Coady would still be in the Champ as an average CM.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

Who did they play in those games, though?

Other than Chelsea he'd have faced every team once other than his parent club. It's a pretty good indicator and easily compared at the end of the season if he's not recalled.

 

[Stafford]

But Doherty and Coady were both players who benefitted from playing in a side that was infinitely better than the sum of its parts. They rode the wave of success and made hay while the sun shined on us for a few seasons under Nuno.

They both had defined roles, in a defined style and both performed excellently in those roles.

Football moves on. Roles adapt. Both these players have proven that they are not as effective trying to replicate the roles they performed in a different setup or environment.

Better players adapt better. Semedo has slotted in seamlessly to a back 4. If anything he looks better there than in a back 5.

Dawson would have been sublime on the right side of our 3 centre backs under Nuno. But he's just as effective in a back 4 too.

So yes, I agree that there is some 'recency bias' with regards to Semedo and Dawson. But there's just as much 'part of a functioning system bias' for Doherty and Coady. Ask both to do the roles of Semedo and Dawson now and they'd be nowhere near.

Your pretty confident that Dawson is a main stay then and able to adapt and hopefully play in a system where as a team we are setup more attacking? Interesting you think he would have slipped into Nuno's 5 (not in Coadys postion) and improved us.
He's had a superb start for us. But in 10 years time, there is no way I can compare him to Coady unless we improve drastically as a team (Coady had a huge influence to the shape and organistion of the double 7 team). We are currently very defensive. Hopefully he can still perform to the same level, once we open up a bit.

 

[Perton Wolf]

Your pretty confident that Dawson is a main stay then and able to adapt and hopefully play in a system where as a team we are setup more attacking? Interesting you think he would have slipped into Nuno's 5 (not in Coadys postion) and improved us.
He's had a superb start for us. But in 10 years time, there is no way I can compare him to Coady unless we improve drastically as a team (Coady had a huge influence to the shape and organistion of the double 7 team). We are currently very defensive. Hopefully he can still perform to the same level, once we open up a bit.

Currently very defensive? We are no more defensive now than we were under Nuno for the vast majority, the main difference was that we had Jota, Raul 1.0 and a dangerous Adama on the counter.

 

[Stafford]

Currently very defensive? We are no more defensive now than we were under Nuno for the vast majority, the main difference was that we had Jota, Raul 1.0 and a dangerous Adama on the counter.

Raul 1.0 was huge to us, i agree.

 

[WolfLing]

Your pretty confident that Dawson is a main stay then and able to adapt and hopefully play in a system where as a team we are setup more attacking?

Not sure I'd want him one on one too often if we do open up. But even then I'd much prefer him to Coady in that situation. Big if though.

I don't think that we will change our style too much going forward. We have a decent balance of defence and attack at the moment and Lopetegui is notoriously pragmatic.

I think we clearly need to work on being more clinical and making better use of our attacking situations, rather than increasing their frequency.

 

[Rednal Wolf]

Dawson . One of the main reasons for our up turn . Solid dependable , a great squad acquisition.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Dawson has been our best signing imo over the season. If we'd stuck with Collins/Kilman we'd be bottom 3 imo. He's no long-term answer but I think for next season he will do fine. As for Coady if he is to come back and we don't sell him (which I doubt tbh) he could be used in games where JL reverts to a 5. However I don't think Coady will accept sitting on the bench.

 

[Perton Wolf]

Dawson has been our best signing imo over the season. If we'd stuck with Collins/Kilman we'd be bottom 3 imo. He's no long-term answer but I think for next season he will do fine. As for Coady if he is to come back and we don't sell him (which I doubt tbh) he could be used in games where JL reverts to a 5. However I don't think Coady will accept sitting on the bench.

Coady should be sold if he comes back here, he jumped ship at the first sign of adversity. If he had actually showed some resilience and stayed then he'd probably have been back in the team after a few games considering how we started.

 

[AndyWolves]

Dawson solves problems in our defence, Coady would create problems which would need mitigating by other players.

 

[Contrarian]

Currently very defensive? We are no more defensive now than we were under Nuno for the vast majority, the main difference was that we had Jota, Raul 1.0 and a dangerous Adama on the counter.

A bit less defensive perhaps, which is why we let in a lot more goals. Though score fewer, too, because as you say, Jota, Raul etc