Can we ever become a "top 6" side

[L78]

The way the club is currently run errrrrrrrrrrrr NO

 

[Eastyorksyeltz]

Do you mean a club that consistently gets in the top 6, or a club that gets in once every 10 years or so?

This is the key. Unless the current "Sky 6", or part of that group break away to form, or join, a super league I think there is no hope for any other club consistently joining the elite. There are currently a number of clubs who can hope to provide intermittent competition and we are not even part of that group. With the right ownership and management we could become part of the occasional challengers for European places and domestic trophies. I don't believe, given the current Premier League financial regulations that any club can surmount the gap that the top sides have established between themselves and the rest of the League. The drawbridge is well and truly drawn up and can only be accessed by a deconstruction of the castle itself. A Saudi assault on the institution itself would be the only way even Newcastle could crash the party.

 

[TheRetroChief]

I assume that you mean top six of the Chump!!!

Ping!

 

[Kebab Warrior]

If we are bought by someone with enough money and connections then yes. We were one place off twice under Nuno. To become one of the big 6? No or at least not without a decade minimum of winning trophies and top 6 finishes.

Won’t matter soon anyway, big 6 will play in the Saudi pro league with both Milan’s, Juvebtus, Barca, Real & PSG.

 

[peter&thewolf]

Only if Fosun sell up

 

[JayStringer]

As it stands, no.

There are certain game changer moments in the finances of modern football, and we've missed each of them. The creation of the Premier League led to a big change, and we missed it. But it was a bubble that seemed to be bursting by the early 2000's as spending was slowing down. But SJH was done trying. Then Abramovich came in and the bubble not only didn't burst, it took off. Spending levels went crazy. Then began to settle again (with a much higher floor) and Steve Morgan had a go, but Abu Dhabi got involved, and spending expanded again. Suddenly being very rich was nolonger enough, an owner needed to be a multi-billionaire. Morgan tapped out. Then there was another slight lull -I'll come back to this in a minute- but the Newcastle takeover and the growth of the Saudi League is the next game changer.

We had a window of time under Fosun, which was the post Abu Dhabi period I mentioned above. They came in with an idea that could have worked. To be a disrupter, do things differently. Under Nuno we had a real go at it. There was a firmly established power structure of City and Liverpool, and Chelsea would still spend whatever it took to stay top four, but a lot of the big teams were in flux. United were having an identity crisis. Spurs were constantly making mistakes. Arsenal were in the wilderness. This period opened the door for Leicester to win the league. It also opened up a chance for a disrupter club to come up on the rails. At the point Covid hit Wolves were in Europe, and were pushing hard for a top six spot. I believe if covid hadn't happened we would have finished 5th or 6th that year, and that would have opened our revenue up.

But that moment passed. Wolves didn't level up. Shi made a bad managerial appointment. And then the Newcastle takeover effectively put another Man City in our way.

The only way we can become a consistent top 6 team now is if FFP (under any name) goes away and a billionaire decides to have us as a plaything. Aside from those two things happening the best we can hope for is to become a Brighton, a well run club who make smart decisions and establish as the best of the rest.

 

[goldfish]

Not until the football bubble bursts.

How the Premier League works is a reflection of society. It's not formally fixed and there's ostensible equality (everyone starts on 0 points!). There aren't conspiracies against smaller teams. But it is structurally set up to ensure inequality.

Who the "big clubs" are at any one time, and how many there are, will change (slowly, usually). But there are only so many clubs with the realistic potential to be one of them without an apocalyptic collapse across the sport: Spurs, Liverpool, Man Utd, Newcastle, Villa, Everton, Arsenal, Chelsea, City. Possibly Southampton (port cities=attractive real estate/sites for foreign investment).

 

[Bossworld]

Not without blood money, and even then, look at how much Man City and co spend just to stay still.

As it stands, no.

There are certain game changer moments in the finances of modern football, and we've missed each of them. The creation of the Premier League led to a big change, and we missed it. But it was a bubble that seemed to be bursting by the early 2000's as spending was slowing down. But SJH was done trying. Then Abramovich came in and the bubble not only didn't burst, it took off. Spending levels went crazy. Then began to settle again (with a much higher floor) and Steve Morgan had a go, but Abu Dhabi got involved, and spending expanded again. Suddenly being very rich was nolonger enough, an owner needed to be a multi-billionaire. Morgan tapped out. Then there was another slight lull -I'll come back to this in a minute- but the Newcastle takeover and the growth of the Saudi League is the next game changer.

We had a window of time under Fosun, which was the post Abu Dhabi period I mentioned above. They came in with an idea that could have worked. To be a disrupter, do things differently. Under Nuno we had a real go at it. There was a firmly established power structure of City and Liverpool, and Chelsea would still spend whatever it took to stay top four, but a lot of the big teams were in flux. United were having an identity crisis. Spurs were constantly making mistakes. Arsenal were in the wilderness. This period opened the door for Leicester to win the league. It also opened up a chance for a disrupter club to come up on the rails. At the point Covid hit Wolves were in Europe, and were pushing hard for a top six spot. I believe if covid hadn't happened we would have finished 5th or 6th that year, and that would have opened our revenue up.

But that moment passed. Wolves didn't level up. Shi made a bad managerial appointment. And then the Newcastle takeover effectively put another Man City in our way.

The only way we can become a consistent top 6 team now is if FFP (under any name) goes away and a billionaire decides to have us as a plaything. Aside from those two things happening the best we can hope for is to become a Brighton, a well run club who make smart decisions and establish as the best of the rest.

Excellent post. Imagine if we'd been promoted in the 1990s when Jack Walker levels of money were enough to get you the PL title.

 

[Fifty Niner]

Bottom six definitely. Top six may take a little longer!

 

[Wiltshire Wolfie]

And the moon is made of cheese.

Yes it used to be but after India landing a spaceship on it yesterday, it is now made of Tikka Masala..

To the question: No, not under Fosun but maybe under new ownership in the future.

 

[JayStringer]

Whatever happens, whether still with Fosun or owned by someone new, we all need to accept that under the current financial rules Wolves need to be run differently. In order to develop and sustain as a club of our size we need to follow the Brighton model. Data-led, unknown-at-the-time players, good coaching, proactive decision-making. The era of spending 35-45 million on a player who may or may not succeed here has ended.

 

[oldgolded]

I can't help thinking that we had a better chance when Sir Jack first took over. He made the error of entrusting the running of the club to his son, who was equally as useless as Shi and equally good at squandering money. If only he had got some people in who knew what they were doing, we might have had a good chance to really establish ourselves.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

Looking at the fixtures, I'd be genuinely surprised if we've won a league game at Molineux by December.

 

[JayStringer]

I can't help thinking that we had a better chance when Sir Jack first took over. He made the error of entrusting the running of the club to his son, who was equally as useless as Shi and equally good at squandering money. If only he had got some people in who knew what they were doing, we might have had a good chance to really establish ourselves.

John McGinlay's fist and Mark McGhee's mouth are the reasons we're not a big club anymore.

 

[The Wolf In The North]

As @WolvesAndCows says, depends if you're talking a one-off or more long term.

The current 'hot' clubs are Newcastle, Brighton and Villa, who finished 4th, 6th and 7th respectively last year, but only Newcastle with their funding are likely to keep that going. Still, it's something to aim for.

Three non-London, non-Sky 6 clubs, the thing that unites them is that decisions are made to benefit the team on the pitch. Strong managers, a set way of playing, money invested in clever recruitment to support the overall plan, equals upward trajectory. You can include Brentford too, on a smaller scale.

What Fosun have NEVER done, not once, throughout all their significant (until this year) investment or the Nuno years, is make the team the important thing. Recruitment is based on player trading, Mendes agenda, finance, not on what the manager needs or what the team on the pitch need.

Silva is the most obvious example, but also look to Bruno last summer, where he was adamant he needed a striker and instead we bought Nunes, Collins and Guedes and then rushed through a disastrous last minute deal for Sasa.

The top six isn't impossible, Nuno twice came close and Lage - yes, Lage - had us around there as little as 18 months ago. But the wrong decisions were consistently made. It's not about pumping endless money in, it's about getting those decisions right to benefit the team.

This summer, Fosun decided on the exact opposite path.

 

[Agent Cooper]

Pre pandemic I would have said yes. Now no chance. Maybe if we got new owners with deep pockets and a "creative" way to increase revenue streams to beat FFP!

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

The top six doesn't exist anymore. There is a top 1 and that will be the way for the next decade.
Arsenal have got some very good young players, but I don't really see them challenging quite as closely this year.
Chelsea have probably got themselves into a right mess long term, and if you went on form alone rather than quality of players at their disposal you'd have them down as relegation candidates. Poch will do well to get them into europe.
Man
Liverpool side are good but nowhere near as good as it was a few years ago. Man United are probably at a similar level and both clubs are capable of attracting good players(so long as Man City don't get there first)
Spurs might qualify for Europe. They equally might not.
Brighton Villa Newcastle all managed to upset the mould and I don't see why they won't continue to do so while clubs like Chelsea and spurs perform so poorly in the transfer market.
The top 6 is dead. If we had peak Nuno team I'd fancy us to be getting in amongst them now.
In fact, if we banned man city the league would be dead exciting this year. Money talks and everything, but too many of the big clubs aren't using it well.

 

[oldgoldheart]

We had it in our reach but under this ownership no chance now

 

[goldeneyed]

With the right manager and the right transfer calls yes. Loptegui might have been the man. But the Guedes, Fabio, Semedo, Hoever and earlier Cutrone deals plus the wasted loan of Traore to Barca and the expensive failed loan experiment with Trincao to mention amongst other failures point to a very poor recruitment team and management in general. Paying way over the top fees. Nunes still has value but unless he pulls his finger out we won't make that much on him and Cunha we grossly overpaid for-he is no goalscorer albeit he has many other qualities. Kalidjic unlucky but how rigorous were his medicals...? The Lemina, Gomes and Dawson deals point the way forward. Sarabia cost little but still to show anything great. Don't generally spend more than £20m or so on any single player. Buy enough players in transition stage at 19/20/21 and hope half of them come good plus bring in the odd golden oldie who still has legs to help steady the ship.

 

[VancouverWolf]

In answer to thread title- yes

Agreed……but Guo must want that enough.

 

[Will Wolf]

Mods feel free to merge with another thread - maybe ffp ? I could not think where else to post this

I feel Fosun came in with all good intentions but have now hit a brick wall

I know money has invested money badly, probably since the 2nd season in the prem ?

Can we ever become a top 6 side when our ability to bring in income seems to be the issue ?

I suppose Brighton (at the mo, there have been others) seem to be the way forward

Benfica would be the best long term example i guess ?

Is there a away we can compete is ffp remains in place ?

Yes if we do the following;

1. Improve player recruitment and scouting process eg Brighton so that we can buy low and sell high to the ‘bigger clubs’ and replace well within FFP

2. Increase commercial revenues by building the wolves brand, increase the stadium size and revenue generating facilities at Molineux, better sponsorship deals, other income sources, etc. This is the only way we will improve under FFP in the long run. Aim should be to grow the club commercially to compete with the big 6

3. Appointment of the right coaching team to take advantage of points 1 and 2. Good scouting and recruitment process for coaches. Have an ongoing shortlist and process ready for when coaches need replacing

IMO Brighton and Brentford are doing the above to a large extent so it’s perfectly possible for Wolves to do the same. I would argue our ceiling is higher than Brighton and Brentford because we have a more unique “brand”, greater history, bigger fan base, etc. if we were run well and had a long term growth plan we could be in the top 6 and competing for trophies

 

[Contrarian]

No. Not unless the world changes dramatically. The current system has emerged as allowing those at the top to pull away further in a feedback loop. Perhaps the Sky 6 will become a Sky 5 as one or other can't keep up. So then we could become a top 6 side, as 6th would become devalued. Like in the Scottish league and we saw what happened to Hibs.

Leicester won the league , but couldn't become a top 6 side. Look at them now.

Also, it's a zero sum game. If every club copies Brighton's recruitment, then we are all back to square one again. You have to move forward to stand still in this league. This was mentioned when we were at our peak - but Fosun stood still and we are seeing the results. We have to do everything *better* than 86 other clubs if we want to become top 6. And they are all trying to hold us back.

 

[Arc]

To become a top 6 side in my view you need to have a long period of sustained success, most specifically in regard to league positions. That's why the 'big 6' are the big 6, you can look back at every past season and usually at least 5 of the big 6 finish in the top 6 every single season and have done for many years now.

Occasionally one of those will fall further down the table for a season but they always bounce right back up into the top 6 the next. That consistency is what no other team outside the 6 has managed to achieve at least anytime recently. You might have teams like leicester that were up there for a couple seasons, we were in 7th twice, but like with both of us those league positions were very short lived. That's the difference between the 6 and teams like us or leicester, and how I imagine teams like villa too will end up being.

You'd need substantial prolonged backing to even consider pushing the top 6 such as newcastle, and even then no one is going to start considering newcastle part of the big 6 until they have 5-10 years at least of consistent league finishes and possibly some trophies.

 

[goldeneyed]

If we hadn't sold Jota and bought Olmo instead of Podence for instance, perhaps got Ramos at the time instead of Fabio we would easily have developed into a top 10 team imv. But so many wrong calls and its no surprise we have tumbled...also bad luck with injuries. The big six can afford to make big mistakes and carry on - clubs at our scale can't. That's the difference.

 

[Baboon]

We're one of those traditional, some might say "proper", football clubs that used to be famous in a bygone era. These last few years have been but a fleeting moment in the Premier League sun before we inevitably renew our rivalries with other "proper" clubs like Blackburn and Preston. Seems like a good time for another visit to the museum.

 

[Bradstonian]

Yes it used to be but after India landing a spaceship on it yesterday, it is now made of Tikka Masala..

To the question: No, not under Fosun but maybe under new ownership in the future.

Tikka Masala’s a British dish.

 

[Deleted member (smith)]

The short answer is no. Here’s why

The only teams in premier league history to become established top 6 are Chelsea and City and that took huge investment by the owners. FFP is designed to protect creditors by limiting expenditure beyond revenues . It therefore prevents anybody buying a seat at the table. Newcastle May bridge the gap because of their huge fan base and revenue and because they can make a large investment.

Teams like Leicester who challenged could not sustain it, The same will happen to Brighton because their model is unsustainable as their best players and staff are cherry picked.

If you look at the league table by revenue and by points it’s not far different. The differences in revenue are huge and to make that leap is a very very long term project.

Premier League clubs by revenue 2022 | Statista

Manchester City was the English Premier League soccer club recording the highest revenue in the 2021/22 season.

www.statista.com

You can seethe huge gap in revenues and that wolves will not be in the top six in your lifetime or mine…..but we must try.

 

[Ned]

With new owners, a complete overhaul of everything scouting and youth coaching, an overhaul of recruitment strategy and the scrapping of FFP - absolutely.

So, no.

 

[Hsvwolf]

If Max stays , maybe at Futsal ..,,,

No chance with this untrustworthy lot in charge

 

[O.W.E.I]

Yes, but please don't let it be with blood/oil money.

 

[JohnB]

Can we? Yes
Will we? Highly unlikely
What would we need to? One-off season always possible with a couple of talents signed who turn out to be amazing and others having a sustained poor season. Regular needs both serious investment and either major growth in revenue and/or a change in FFP. Alternatively Big6 disappear and create a European League or a LIV style XXXVIII tournament.

 

[wolf of sedgley]

In a word, no

 

[Oldvic161]

If Jim ratcliffe loses the United bidding, get on the phone to him, I’m sure he could spend less than £ton to get us top 6

 

[floydstreet]

The super 6, FFP and PL are doing their best to make sure the answer is no and the status quo is preserved

 

[Alex Rae The Substitute]

We were the best of the rest for 2 years, but didn’t manage to push on then, and we’ve fallen massively to a relegation contender since.

I suspect that was our chance and we failed to take it, so my feeling is no we won’t ever be a top 6 team.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Brighton are doing fantastic stuff currently, but I've lost count of the teams we supposedly should have been modelling ourselves on. Most of them are now in the Championship, maybe currently we should be looking at them and working out how they fell off the rails (mostly the owners stopped investing!)

 

[surreywolf]

Wolves > Icarus

 

[Mugwump]

I was watching some old clips of our first 2 premier league seasons under Nuno. This squad looks so poor compared to that one. I know we arent, but its almost we are like a team of nobodies these days.

I'm not usually pessimistic, but i'm resigned to relegation as things stand now. I cant see how we get enough improvement in this squad

 

[wwbug]

What makes Wolves special to a wealthy owner ? Thats what we need.
Newcastle may do it . And that would prove FFP isnt holding everyone back. But you may have to "circumvent" it

 

[lostwolf]

I'm not bothered to be honest. We're historically a 'big' 10 side at best across our history (taking into consideration all the factors I think are are important, like trophies, historic and current attendances, ground, potential etc), and in my time of watching us probably a top 20 side and not much more.

My priorities are more about us being competitive and not embarrassing ourselves, having a team we're proud of, getting more babbies in and securing the long term future of our club, having the club remain important in the community etc. When Fosun came in and we were singing about being ****ing rich preseason at Vale, I just wanted us to get up and stay up, redevelop Molineux in a sensible sensitive way circa 45k and grow our fanbase again. Basically, to leave a legacy.