Blacks V Whites

[Dr Wolfenstein]

BBC2 9.00 tonight. If not already mentioned. WBA's Len Cantello's controversial testimonial from 1979. Documentary re this love thy neighbour match, featuring Bob Hazell & George Berry.

 

[Alex Rae The Substitute]

I was born in the 80s so missed this era of football, I'm sure it was a terrible time to be a black footballer.

Was it just Wolves and Blues fans that were racist, and the Albion not at all? Don't wish to accuse Chiles of bias, but...

 

[Deleted member 4456]

I would've watched this programme, but the thought of listening to that boring ****** for an hour was just too much.

 

[GY Wolf]

Very good programme. Quite shocking just hearing about the vile abuse black players were subject to every week. Times have thankfully changed but there's still work to be done, in football and in general society.

 

[mrboing]

I was born in the 80s so missed this era of football, I'm sure it was a terrible time to be a black footballer.

Was it just Wolves and Blues fans that were racist, and the Albion not at all? Don't wish to accuse Chiles of bias, but...

In fairness the stories came directly from the players. The impression I got was that it was the dressing rooms attitudes that varied. I dont think anyone would be daft enough to claim that Albion had significantly less or more racist morons than any other WM side.

 

[thetwistedsock]

How I hate Chiles but that was a really good programme.

I think at least statistically speaking more black ex-players will surely get into management and boardrooms as time goes on. Not sure we need an equivalent of the "Rooney rule" from America, that said we were recently called out for not following the (similar) voluntary code we had signed up for.

 

[Pengwern]

Very good programme. Great interviews with Bob Hazell and George Berry. My worst ever experience at Football was at the Albion Smethwick End around that time when thousands of Wolves fans were chanting "Pull that Trigger, Pull that Trigger, Pull that Trigger and Shoot that ******!" at Brendan Batson. Luckily it never got a mention in that programme, but it could easily have done.

 

[Floyd Man]

The irony about all this is that Ron Atkinson was made out to be some kind of forward thinking manager at the time....... I'll leave that one hanging.

 

[ShropshireLad]

Very good programme. Quite shocking just hearing about the vile abuse black players were subject to every week. Times have thankfully changed but there's still work to be done, in football and in general society.

It was something that upset at me at Wolves in the early 70s.
I've admitted on here that in my late youth I held racist views (although not extreme) yet I found the terrace racial abuse unacceptable. I eventually started going fishing for my Saturday entertainment then I discovered what women were. Then I was a lost cause.

 

[mrboing]

Largely left out of the prog for that very reason i would think.

 

[Alex Rae The Substitute]

In fairness the stories came directly from the players. The impression I got was that it was the dressing rooms attitudes that varied. I dont think anyone would be daft enough to claim that Albion had significantly less or more racist morons than any other WM side.

Fair point. Just interesting there was no reference to any issue at Albion. A passing reference towards the end of an Albion supporter saying it was tough for the fans too.

Nonetheless, interesting documentary, and perhaps naively I hadn't realized how good Batson (sp) and Cunningham were, I knew of Regis' quality but hadn't appreciated the quality of the other two.

 

[Derby Wolf]

Following this documentary Thelwell had the epiphany of British vs. Portuguese games in training. Construction of separate changing rooms is said to be progressing nicely however the players have reacted furiously at being told they can't sit at the front of the team bus.

 

[ShropshireLad]

The irony about all this is that Ron Atkinson was made out to be some kind of forward thinking manager at the time....... I'll leave that one hanging.

The nuclear fallout following his controversial expression, and I agree unacceptable statement because it was public expressed on TV, overlooked far more complex issues than were discussed, and should have been discussed, at the time. However, all of the media pundits were either too frightened or not racially literate enough to understand them. Black pundits (who I'm sure used that word amongst themselves) and white pundits (some of whom possibly understood the context or were just plain not savvy enough) ducked the issue.

To clarify, I've lived in London and have worked with plenty of black chaps who would quite often use that word in the 80s and 90s. Amongst some groups of mixed ethnicity it would be banded about with abandon. Folk who live in Wolvo who mix with black chaps will probably know what I mean.

 

[mrboing]

Fair point. Just interesting there was no reference to any issue at Albion. A passing reference towards the end of an Albion supporter saying it was tough for the fans too.

Nonetheless, interesting documentary, and perhaps naively I hadn't realized how good Batson (sp) and Cunningham were, I knew of Regis' quality but hadn't appreciated the quality of the other two.

Yes Laurie would have been worth a fortune today.

As an aside to the main issue it is a stark visual reminder of how rapidly both clubs fell apart between around 1980 - 1985. When you look at what happened to the stadiums, the squad and the attendances it was like aomeone had let off a spell of doom.

 

[Henry Palfrey]

I would've watched this programme, but the thought of listening to that boring ****** for an hour was just too much.

Same here

 

[Floyd Man]

The nuclear fallout following his controversial expression, and I agree unacceptable statement because it was public expressed on TV, overlooked far more complex issues than were discussed, and should have been discussed, at the time. However, all of the media pundits were either too frightened or not racially literate enough to understand them. Black pundits (who I'm sure used that word amongst themselves) and white pundits (some of whom possibly understood the context or were just plain not savvy enough) ducked the issue.

To clarify, I've lived in London and have worked with plenty of black chaps who would quite often use that word in the 80s and 90s. Amongst some groups of mixed ethnicity it would be banded about with abandon. Folk who live in Wolvo who mix with black chaps will probably know what I mean.

Yes I'm fully aware that it's an acceptable term within the black community and has been for a long time. The point I was making in that post is that Ron was far from the saint he was being put forward as back in the day. I'm sure it would have been debated on here at the time, but the guy clearly showed he had not moved on from '60s/'70s type language when he made that infamous comment.

 

[maws]

I'll put it in to context, as someone whose left leaning and trying to think of a world with no stereotypes

My mate at work, whose a Sikh, can't refer to any one whose a Muslim without calling them P. You know the word. I said don't you think people may call you that too? He said, no I'm nothing like them they are lowest of the low!

There in a nutshell, is it all. Too many think racism is a white problem. As I say I'm ( in my mind) a socialist, but I can't change these other points of view, and nor can anyone else. Racism isn't just a white thing, when the world wakes up to this we may one day move forward, unfortunately it's not gonna be soon.

Love peace and solitude to one and all comrades

 

[thetwistedsock]

The nuclear fallout following his controversial expression, and I agree unacceptable statement because it was public expressed on TV, overlooked far more complex issues than were discussed, and should have been discussed, at the time. However, all of the media pundits were either too frightened or not racially literate enough to understand them. Black pundits (who I'm sure used that word amongst themselves) and white pundits (some of whom possibly understood the context or were just plain not savvy enough) ducked the issue.

To clarify, I've lived in London and have worked with plenty of black chaps who would quite often use that word in the 80s and 90s. Amongst some groups of mixed ethnicity it would be banded about with abandon. Folk who live in Wolvo who mix with black chaps will probably know what I mean.

What Ron said is indefensible but it wasn't strictly on public TV it was on a feed channel. I used to watch them when I had a motorised dish, these were open channels used by TV companies. I'd see things not meant for broadcast such as interview setups and casual chats. I don't have that dish now and most feeds were on inclined orbit satellites anyway, but I digress. Ultimately what Ron said was as bad as it gets and it killed any further pundit work but it wasn't on a TV channel, as such.

 

[Floyd Man]

I'll put it in to context, as someone whose left leaning and trying to think of a world with no stereotypes

My mate at work, whose a Sikh, can't refer to any one whose a Muslim without calling them P. You know the word. I said don't you think people may call you that too? He said, no I'm nothing like them they are lowest of the low!

There in a nutshell, is it all. Too many think racism is a white problem. As I say I'm ( in my mind) a socialist, but I can't change these other points of view, and nor can anyone else. Racism isn't just a white thing, when the world wakes up to this we may one day move forward, unfortunately it's not gonna be soon.

Love peace and solitude to one and all comrades

Totally understand what you are saying and I have often experienced this myself. But what I would say is each of us should concentrate on ourselves and what we are projecting out there. Ron obviously wasn't thinking about that.

 

[maws]

Totally understand what you are saying and I have often experienced this myself. But what I would say is each of us should concentrate on ourselves and what we are projecting out there. Ron obviously wasn't thinking about that.

Everyone is equal in my eyes, man/woman etc etc

 

[Dr Wolfenstein]

I would've watched this programme, but the thought of listening to that boring ****** for an hour was just too much.

You missed a good programme about prejudice, because of prejudice. Try subtitles on/sound off.

 

[Dr Wolfenstein]

Very good programme. Great interviews with Bob Hazell and George Berry.

Interestingly, Bob & George didn't make the reunion at the Hawthorns-still a step too far for Wolves-related people, unless absolutely necessary, perhaps?
Loved their wives' attitude that they wouldn't stop going to games despite the racial abuse being hurled at their husbands, because they were showing support/solidarity. Whereas Brendon Batson's wife didn't feel able to put up with it & stopped going to matches.

 

[ShropshireLad]

What Ron said is indefensible but it wasn't strictly on public TV it was on a feed channel. I used to watch them when I had a motorised dish, these were open channels used by TV companies. I'd see things not meant for broadcast such as interview setups and casual chats. I don't have that dish now and most feeds were on inclined orbit satellites anyway, but I digress. Ultimately what Ron said was as bad as it gets and it killed any further pundit work but it wasn't on a TV channel, as such.

Thanks for that, Mr Sock. I had forgotten that it was off screen.

 

[ShropshireLad]

Everyone is equal in my eyes, man/woman etc etc

"But some are more equal than others."

 

[maws]

4 legs good 2 legs bad!! Yep I read it too

 

[ShropshireLad]

Yes I'm fully aware that it's an acceptable term within the black community and has been for a long time. The point I was making in that post is that Ron was far from the saint he was being put forward as back in the day. I'm sure it would have been debated on here at the time, but the guy clearly showed he had not moved on from '60s/'70s type language when he made that infamous comment.

80s and 90s language, even.

 

[ShropshireLad]

4 legs good 2 legs bad!! Yep I read it too

"But some are more equal than others."

Those that aren't are just a bunch of pigs.

 

[Floyd Man]

Those that aren't are just a bunch of pigs.

This is getting a bit close to a great Pink Floyd album - one of my faves.

 

[Very Proud (AKA Still Proud)]

Childs' self-indugence aside (which I think was the real motivation behind him making it), it's a decent watch and provides an insight into how it was going to a match back in the day. Sadly it was a reflection on society at the times, which has now grown up, though we will all still have to face prejudice from time to time and it will never really totally go away. Anyone remember what George's nickname was from his own fans eh?

There was one shot of George and Bob in the youth team, recognised the likes of Kenny Tood and Maurice Daly but also remembered the Asian lad, who's name escapes me. Never thought much about it at the time but it was very rare even up to today, he would have been a real breaking of the mold back then.

The biggest single takeaway is that these guys were pioneers and it can't have been a nice time, as Bob said "These were the best times of my life" to which Childs responed "They were sullied but they weren't taken away from you" - Bob and George will always have that.

 

[berwickwolf]

Very good programme. Great interviews with Bob Hazell and George Berry. My worst ever experience at Football was at the Albion Smethwick End around that time when thousands of Wolves fans were chanting "Pull that Trigger, Pull that Trigger, Pull that Trigger and Shoot that ******!" at Brendan Batson. Luckily it never got a mention in that programme, but it could easily have done.

Yeah, I remember that. One of my worst memories as a Wolves fan. There weren't many Wolves fans from different ethnic backgrounds those days, but there was a British Asian fan by me and my mates and I'll never forget looking at him trying to laugh it off whilst as you say thousands were chanting that vile chant. But I still think/hope it was a very small minority, like many clubs had at that time, trying to get their racist views mainstream and that, sadly, others followed on that occasion that wouldn't normally. It was great going to Newcastle and seeing how Wolves fans are now far more diverse in racial backgrounds. Anyway, ever heard that famous story of when the black leader of West Ham's ICF went dressed as a red indian chief to a match to stand where the National Front were starting to build a presence in the home end? He went and stood there and when trouble kicked off with the racists the ICF, who hadn't been told what he was doing, all piled in to help him. Maybe football in strange ways has also been a big part of changing attitudes over the years. It is a tribal sport, and having black players throughout the leagues has helped break down stereotypes. The 80s were a crazy time looking back. Like that Chairman that said black players could only play as wingers or whatever because they couldn't tackle! Hopefully better days now.

 

[KnowleWolf]

Very good programme. Great interviews with Bob Hazell and George Berry. My worst ever experience at Football was at the Albion Smethwick End around that time when thousands of Wolves fans were chanting "Pull that Trigger, Pull that Trigger, Pull that Trigger and Shoot that ******!" at Brendan Batson. Luckily it never got a mention in that programme, but it could easily have done.

Me too, it was horrendous hearing our fans banging that corrugated iron and then making those chants. I say this as the Wolves fan who co-authored Samba in the Smethwick End with WBA fan and now their match programme editor.

 

[KnowleWolf]

Yeah, I remember that. One of my worst memories as a Wolves fan. There weren't many Wolves fans from different ethnic backgrounds those days, but there was a British Asian fan by me and my mates and I'll never forget looking at him trying to laugh it off whilst as you say thousands were chanting that vile chant. But I still think/hope it was a very small minority, like many clubs had at that time, trying to get their racist views mainstream and that, sadly, others followed on that occasion that wouldn't normally. It was great going to Newcastle and seeing how Wolves fans are now far more diverse in racial backgrounds. Anyway, ever heard that famous story of when the black leader of West Ham's ICF went dressed as a red indian chief to a match to stand where the National Front were starting to build a presence in the home end? He went and stood there and when trouble kicked off with the racists the ICF, who hadn't been told what he was doing, all piled in to help him. Maybe football in strange ways has also been a big part of changing attitudes over the years. It is a tribal sport, and having black players throughout the leagues has helped break down stereotypes. The 80s were a crazy time looking back. Like that Chairman that said black players could only play as wingers or whatever because they couldn't tackle! Hopefully better days now.

That British Asian Wolves fan may well have been me?

 

[berwickwolf]

That British Asian Wolves fan may well have been me?

Well if it was, I can still picture that moment vividly and have thought a lot about it over the years as a moment when you see what can lie beneath the surface of a group of fellow fans you identify with and how quickly people can get sucked in to something just wrong. I hope, no believe, a lot of Wolves fans felt the same at the time. And I can only imagine how you and the players must have felt, but without the courage fans and players from diferent backgrounds showed, sadly because you shouldn't have had to, things wouldn't have changed to how, hopefully, things are better now. Anyway, it was awful and a terrible moment.

 

[KnowleWolf]

Well if it was, I can still picture that moment vividly and have thought a lot about it over the years as a moment when you see what can lie beneath the surface of a group of fellow fans you identify with and how quickly people can get sucked in to something just wrong. I hope, no believe, a lot of Wolves fans felt the same at the time. And I can only imagine how you and the players must have felt, but without the courage fans and players from diferent backgrounds showed, sadly because you shouldn't have had to, things wouldn't have changed to how, hopefully, things are better now. Anyway, it was awful and a terrible moment.

I write about that incident/moment in graphical detail in 'Samba in the Smethwick End'

 

[Beowulf]

Very good programme. Great interviews with Bob Hazell and George Berry. My worst ever experience at Football was at the Albion Smethwick End around that time when thousands of Wolves fans were chanting "Pull that Trigger, Pull that Trigger, Pull that Trigger and Shoot that ******!" at Brendan Batson. Luckily it never got a mention in that programme, but it could easily have done.

I remember Wolves fans on the South Bank chanting that at George Berry after a mistake of his led to a goal being conceded (not the Watford FA Cup match). There were perhaps a few dozen or so chanting it, as opposed to thousands, but it was still quite audible. Shocking. The only other time I recall quite prominent racist abuse from Wolves fans was at Sheffield United in the late '80s, with monkey noises being directed at Tony Agana and Brian Deane provoking an understandable reaction (remarkably mild though, given the circumstances) from, I think, Deane.

Both instances were obviously appalling to hear but it was similarly unsettling to read of the racism that existed, in part, in the Wolves dressing room during Berry and Hazell's time, something that George alluded to in the programme.

 

[Wonder Boyo]

This programme is on again tonight at 11:15pm on BBC2 as a tribute to Cyrille Regis. We'll worth a watch if you missed it first time around. Quite a bit of Wolves in it, including George Berry.

 

[kaohsiungwolf]

I'll put it in to context, as someone whose left leaning and trying to think of a world with no stereotypes

My mate at work, whose a Sikh, can't refer to any one whose a Muslim without calling them P. You know the word. I said don't you think people may call you that too? He said, no I'm nothing like them they are lowest of the low!

There in a nutshell, is it all. Too many think racism is a white problem. As I say I'm ( in my mind) a socialist, but I can't change these other points of view, and nor can anyone else. Racism isn't just a white thing, when the world wakes up to this we may one day move forward, unfortunately it's not gonna be soon.

Love peace and solitude to one and all comrades

Having spent the last 6 years working and travelling out in Asia, I can assure you you’re right, racism is highly prevelant in all cultures. Racism and stereotypes exist because people are, shock horror, different, different races do actually have different traits, as horrific as that might sound to someone on the sadly now-dogmatised culturally naive side of the mid left. It doesn’t mean we can’t get along and it doesn’t mean one is any better or worse than the other.

I work in an international school in London teaching 16-18, I see these differences very clearly in front of my eyes every day. Every stereotype you can imagine exists in my classroom, and how dull my days would be if it didn’t.

Europe is absolutely decades ahead of anywhere I’ve been in terms of integration and racial equality, but then again, despite what the media would have us believe, most of the world is regionally, racially homogenous, ‘diversity’ and multiculturism only really exists in the US and a tiny handful of ex/commonwealth and EU countries. For better or worse, the happiest, most cohesive societies I’ve witnessed have tended to be the least diverse, which is hardly surprising when you think about it.

 

[Stingray II]

I want to watch this, but am outside the UK. I found this on YouTube. Is this it?

 

[Moulinex Mixer]

I want to watch this, but am outside the UK. I found this on YouTube. Is this it?

Yes

 

[JadeWolf]

I suppose the good thing is, people who are watching this show are genuinely shocked by what happened, which shows that attitudes have changed. You've always gotta say like, it was only ever a minority of supporters, and not the whole crowd. But even so, it's shocking to think this was only like, 30-35 years ago.