... And Then There Were Seven

[thetwistedsock]

We can't realistically claim an extra 7 points as if nothing else would have happened in those games subsequent to decisions being reversed or viewed differently-unless we're talking last kick of the match..

For example Man Utd and Fulham?

 

[Ewok vs Wolf]

7 points already could be costly come end of the season if we were dragged into a relegation battle

 

[SuperGran]

For example Man Utd and Fulham?

And Sheffield United

 

[SeaWolf]

This, from an Arsenal blogger:


NJB
@nigel_b_golf
·
3h
Remember, Mikel Arteta was charged for saying refereeing is a disgrace. Last night the officials have admitted that they missed 2 red cards and gave 2 penalties they shouldn’t have…..

Now tell everyone Arteta was wrong
@FA_PGMOL
. Gary O’Neill should speak out now

 

[wolfslair]

it felt, to me, like the first stonewall penalty we'd given away this season. As soon as I saw the first replay, I looked around the pub and most were nodding too. Over 50% of penalties are just poorly timed tackles. A poorly timed tackle, in the box, is still a stonewall penalty.. imo.

You can’t initiate contact, you have never been able to do that to get a pen. And that is what he did.

It is still deemed as simulation alongside diving

This is, was and always has been deemed “simulation” so it hasn’t been a stonewall pen for over a decade mate……

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

It is quite frankly appalling. I watch sports that have had TV refs for decades and I have no idea what Football is actually trying to do with VAR. Is it to assist Refs, is it to take the decision away from them, is it to speed the game up, or to slow the game down and make it less of a spectacle. Is it to stop obvious errors, or to deny goals (an entertainment aspect of the game) by judging millimetres of a player being offside.

I think they've genuinely not got an idea why they've brought it in and for what purpose, its just a jumble of a mess and until they recognise its objectives then it should be taken out of the game.

Its almost like they've ignored everything every other sport get right and given it to some chumps who have never played the game and said, ''there you go see how you get on with this''

On us well we've been stiffed at every opportunity and its starting to turn me off the game, I could understand poor decisions pre VAR, its one man in the middle after all. Post VAR its just farcical especially the amount to have had go against us.

I mean how can you have a 'soft' headbut? All they are doing is digging a bigger a bigger whole but until it genuinely effects a big club its just largely ignored

 

[wolfslair]

7 points already could be costly come end of the season if we were dragged into a relegation battle

This season it won’t hurt our survival chances as the newly promoted teams are so poor.

But if this was last season or looking at the teams who are likely to come up, these mistakes would potentially be catastrophic

 

[fleck1]

We are potentially 7 points worse off, maybe more, maybe less as you don't know how games would pan out after these decisions that have gone against us. We are only a third of the way through the season so its inevitable there will be more come May, for a side outside of the big 6/7 this is a huge number of points and potentially the difference between Premier league and championship football next season. These incompetent clowns have the potential to cost a club £100s of millions in TV money, sponsorship, ticket revenue, player values, where do Wolves and Fosun stand if say they went down by one point and have a pile of "oops sorry lads our mistake" emails from Howard Webb.

 

[Contrarian]

I don't care where they come up with the 7 points. O'Neill is right, this is messing with people's livelihoods. this MUST end.

Also FWIW ... it's interesting that Salisbury apparently basically threw the VAR (Atwell) under the bus, blaming him for not sending him to the VAR screen to review on his own. LOL. Question: what prevented Salisbury from checking the VAR screen for himself? I didn't realize he needed permission ... or does he? Maybe someone should ask him that question? Or even, "Now that Atwell has proven his judgment not to be trustworthy, will you feel obliged to visit the VAR screen for all close calls, regardless of Atwell's VAR feedback?"

And how can you trust the VAR and/or VAR assistant to provide the most accurate views, as opposed to the ones they want you to see?!?

Maybe this slight crack in the solid black wall of unity/covering for each other's mistakes will finally lead to the end of PGMOL only VAR???

I do accept the PGMOL deserve a lot of the flak. I also think we shouldn't forget that it is a difficult job and that managers and players play a big part in the current problems. Plaeyrs by incessant attempts to con the ref. And managers by calling none of it out.

All of them generally presenting the view that cheating is a valid part of the game - the art is not to get caught. Many of the pundits are in on this, too. Too keen to not upset the gravy train by calling out the continual cheating by their fellow professionals.

They are all in on covering for each other, too. They only complain when their favourites get a decision against them. Witness the difference in the media outrage when Arsenal and Liverpool had dodgy decisions against them - compared to the silence when we and other clubs had even worse decisions against us.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Our players need to be smarter. Throw themselves to the ground like every other ****er in this league or we will continue to suffer. The officials are clearly not up to the job so we have a choice to sink by continuing as we are or wise the **** up.

Doubtless that would be the game when the useless ****s clamped down on diving ....

 

[iamthenewno2]

It isn't 7 though, it is 9, with two less penalties and one/two less players on the pitch I am pretty sure, as much as you can be with Wolves that we win the game.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

7 points already could be costly come end of the season if we were dragged into a relegation battle

Or preventing us from qualifying for Europe. There is an argument that the club could seek a case of financial compensation against PGMOL and/or the Premier League if the there was sufficient errors acknowledged by PGMOL officials, that resulted in Wolves finishing in a lower position in the league. It would really throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

It’s the actual rules or interpretation of them that are the main issue. Most games seem to be decided by good cheating as opposed to a great goal. With slight contact resulting in a penalty or players looking for a leg to run over. At one point they were talking about yellows for simulation but we seem to have gone right the other way.

Yup, the implementation of VAR is rewarding cheats.

 

[wolfslair]

It isn't 7 though, it is 9, with two less penalties and one/two less players on the pitch I am pretty sure, as much as you can be with Wolves that we win the game.

Can’t make that assumption, even Gary didn’t.

It is 7 if you look at it based on actual goal scoring opportunities and that is what and how everyone gages the dropped points with us

 

[Ewok vs Wolf]

This season it won’t hurt our survival chances as the newly promoted teams are so poor.

But if this was last season or looking at the teams who are likely to come up, these mistakes would potentially be catastrophic

I agree with you but there is still a long way to go iabd anything can happen

 

[Ned]

I can’t believe that we are actually going to be punished more than Everton by the end of 2023. Honestly it’s so disheartening, especially when nothing will change all the time there are still pound notes to be made.

 

[binners]

Whatever the points difference is at the end of the season and therefore revenue from sky we should sue PGMOL for the difference

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Stonewall when Howard webb said incidents where a defender pulls out (he does) and the attacker comes from the blind spot to initiate contact isn’t a pen…. Come on now….

Howard webb said this exact thing wasn’t a pen only 3 weeks ago on national telly

This is the one that actually kills me the most. It's never a pen and just the sort of one where after the Sheff U and Newcastle ones Webb was supposed to have told the VARs to overrule the refs when they give them. Instead of that we get Atwell overruling the ref not giving it!

To be honest it's also the only one of the Newcastle, Sheff U and two last night, that I didn't think was a pen live. The VAR has managed to fail to overrule 3 non-pens and screw it up the one time the ref got it right, no wonder Gary has had enough!

 

[Flea]

So..it is officially at least three potential matchdeciding calls from the ref that is unfairly against us yesterday.
Salisbury has officially said that Fulhams first pen shouldn´t have been given.
PGMOL now officially states that both Vinicius and Ream should have been sent off for Fulham as cherries on top of the total shambles that is the referees "performance" yesterday.

Seems to me the refs robbed us of another three points this time..not just one.
We get to play against nine men yesterday..like we should have been..we probably ends up winning by a goal.

It is match after match..we should contemplate just walking off the pitch when this continues to happen..cause it will..and we should be prepared for some real big action the next time it happens.

Probably allready against Arsenal.
I´ve had enough.It is a big ****ing scandal so we should start act accordingly.

To hell with them!

 

[Olivergoldblack]

I might be naive or stupid, possibly both, but I always thought a headbutt would result in a red card. I didn’t know the degree of force came into the equation.

Yep seems like they've invented a threshold all of a sudden that only came into force last night.

This is why players embarrassingly roll around like they've been maimed all the time.

 

[Olivergoldblack]

This season it won’t hurt our survival chances as the newly promoted teams are so poor.

But if this was last season or looking at the teams who are likely to come up, these mistakes would potentially be catastrophic

It's the perception at the end of the season. If var robs us of 10 points and we finish 14th instead of 8th or something, we miss out on a lot of prize money (something like £2m per place), also our lowly position might affect keeping key players and missing out on signings who might think we're not ambitious enough.

 

[wulfie88]

 

[wolvesjoe]

Yep seems like they've invented a threshold all of a sudden that only came into force last night.

This is why players embarrassingly roll around like they've been maimed all the time.

The integrity of the game is definitely being damaged with these penalties given, even
though the simulation is very apparent on replay.

It can only encourage more cheating, more gamesmanship, more games decided by flawed
decisions, rather than good play.

 

[Flea]

Last pen for Fulham should never have been given either since it is perfectly clear Salisburys original decision isn´t a clear and obvious mistake.
There´s never a single thief in there that is doing all the robbing on his own.
They work together side by side and then take cover behind VAR.
It´s a despicable theatre.

IF someone would compile a film over the last two seasons horrendous decisions that has gone against us..it would be a long film indeed and people would just sit there not believing what they are seeing.
It´s not that we EVER is given a fifty-fifty decision..it simply NEVER happens!

I´m as far from a conspiracy theorist there is..but I am looking for any other possible explanation to the permanent robbery we are victims of..other than there is a conspiracy against us.What other explanation can there be?
There is none.The refs has it against us and thety are robbing us blind on a more or less match by match basis.

I want an independent enquiry into this.
There is something genuinly rotten regarding this and I want to know what the **** is going on!

 

[Flea]

It isn't 7 though, it is 9, with two less penalties and one/two less players on the pitch I am pretty sure, as much as you can be with Wolves that we win the game.

Damn right.
There is very little evidence we avoid winning against nine men.
Salisbury and his goons handed the win to Fulham on a silver platter.
It seems there was simply nothing we could do regarding it.
It seems to have been decided well before first whistle.

 

[Gold67]

Very strong case for 9 points 'docked' by incompetence / agendas / corruption (take your pick. Probably all 3)
9 points in 13 games.
That's a point lost every 130 mins of play.
With approx 1/3 of the season gone.
Extrapolation yields 26-27 points EARNED over the whole season, but not making their way onto the PL final table.

And Everton go ape about 10 for cheating.

No, me neither

 

[glorybox]

4 of the 5 bad decisions away from home

3 of them after the 90th minute

You can’t come back from those easily

This is surely home team bias at play by the refs then. Plain as day.

 

[JonahWolf]

We can't realistically claim an extra 7 points as if nothing else would have happened in those games subsequent to decisions being reversed or viewed differently-unless we're talking last kick of the match..

Well, there have been 3 pretty much last kick of the match penalty decisions go against us, for an 80% chance of being a point better off.
7 is stretching it yes, but the not given against Yanited, and the 2 pens against us for dives with Blades and last night, those are pretty much locks for points robbed by terrible decisions.

 

[iamthenewno2]

Can’t make that assumption, even Gary didn’t.

It is 7 if you look at it based on actual goal scoring opportunities and that is what and how everyone gages the dropped points with us

Not sure I understand, the final score was 3-2, two of the Fulham goals were VAR tainted penalties, that makes it 1-2 even without the sending off.

Gary seems to be accepting the second penalty stands as VAR have said they were right to give it, it doesn't mean they were.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

This is surely home team bias at play by the refs then. Plain as day.

Any ref who feels intimidated by Fulham's home support really needs to consider his choice of profession though - especially if he's sat in Stockley Park!

 

[Chuck Murray]

It isn't 7 though, it is 9, with two less penalties and one/two less players on the pitch I am pretty sure, as much as you can be with Wolves that we win the game.

I was not thrilled, but was overall fine with accepting the first two penalties as equals, one scrubbing the next. Stuff we used to see a lot more regularly with fair-minded officials pre-VAR. But let's say there is the second yellow on Ream, then Wolves are playing against 10 players for 15-20 minutes. We've seen that before, and it's far from a given Wolves score in that window.

Now with the Vinicius non-call, Wolves would have been playing against 9 men parking the bus for the final 5-10 minutes. I'd like to think they would be able to solve that, but would you wager your life on it? I wouldn't. But should it have been the case? Absolutely.

So the "easy" assessment is one point lost for sure. And we go with that. Maybe the messaging will eventually sink in at PGMOL??? ...

 

[Hawkguy]

I don't care where they come up with the 7 points. O'Neill is right, this is messing with people's livelihoods. this MUST end.

Also FWIW ... it's interesting that Salisbury apparently basically threw the VAR (Atwell) under the bus, blaming him for not sending him to the VAR screen to review on his own. LOL. Question: what prevented Salisbury from checking the VAR screen for himself? I didn't realize he needed permission ... or does he? Maybe someone should ask him that question? Or even, "Now that Atwell has proven his judgment not to be trustworthy, will you feel obliged to visit the VAR screen for all close calls, regardless of Atwell's VAR feedback?"

And how can you trust the VAR and/or VAR assistant to provide the most accurate views, as opposed to the ones they want you to see?!?

Maybe this slight crack in the solid black wall of unity/covering for each other's mistakes will finally lead to the end of PGMOL only VAR???

We can only hope, and in hoping, we can only hope the club hasn't been decimated as a result in the interim. 7 points down in 13 matches, projected out over a full 38 games, is a whopping twenty (20) point assessment. Twice the Everton penalty. Ponder that, willya.

Has any official ever watched the VAR screen themselves? I've never seen it, I'm not even sure if it's allowed? I'm guessing it's not because it would have the potential to slow the game down considerably.

The reason for VAR is to send you there when you've made an error. If the referee makes a call and VAR doesn't call, he's going to assume he made the right call.

It just goes to show you how badly the rulebook needs to be rewritten to be more black and white. The fact that there's any interpretation at all screams that there is a problem with the rules at the base.

Even us fans are all over the place.

I thought Semedo's was not a penalty. I thought the headbunt should have been a red. I thought the Hwang one was a penalty but I was fine without it having a second yellow. I thought the Gomes one was a penalty, even though I hate that type of penalty. There's people who agree and disagree with this all including the referees, VAR officials, and other supporters here. Which proves just how **** the rules are.

 

[YouGottaRaulWithIt]

Referee admitted he 'got it wrong' with Fulham's first pen - O'Neil

AADAM PATEL AT CRAVEN COTTAGE: Gary O'Neil's side have found themselves on the wrong end of a series of decisions this season and here was another on a controversial night.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Gary O'Neil insisted that Wolves are seven points worse off this season due to incorrect refereeing decisions after they lost to an injury-time Willian penalty at Craven Cottage in another game filled with VAR controversy.

Three penalties were awarded in the second half, with two to Fulham, and O'Neil revealed that in a lengthy post-match meeting in the referee's room referee Michael Salisbury admitted that he had made a mistake for the first Fulham penalty, which was given after Nelson Semedo caught Tom Cairney on the edge of the box.

'He (Salisbury) doesn't think the first one is a penalty because he thinks he should have been sent to the (VAR) screen and he would have overturned it from the images that we watched together in his room,' said O'Neil. 'He regrets the fact that he wasn't sent to the screen to overturn the Nelson penalty.'

O'Neil refused to go after the officials at full-time but admitted that he felt aggrieved as yet more decisions went against his side.

'Behaving respectfully and conducting myself in this manner has probably meant that we're seven points down due to PGMOL reviews,' said O'Neil.

'The difference between 22 points and 15 for the thousands of supporters who follow the team around the country is huge'.

The difference between 22 points and 15 on my reputation when you're trying to build at a big club is irreparable'.

'You can send me flowers. You can ring me tomorrow. You can do what you want but we should be on 22 points instead of 15,' he added.

'We're going to try and conduct myself in the way that I think is right and I will continue to but the players are extremely frustrated. 'The players are like "yeah, should we make some noise about this? Do we need social media posts?" But my advice so far before this evening is to make sure we're good enough to win the game regardless of what the officials do.'

O'Neil added that he felt both Tim Ream and Carlos Vinicius should have been sent off for separate incidents.

Ream was fortunate to survive a second booking when he fouled Hwang Hee-chan in the box while Vinicius wasn't punished for a headbutt minutes before Willian's winner,

'They've sent somebody out since then speak to one of my staff and said that by the letter of the law, Tim Ream should have received a second yellow card,' said O'Neil.

'We discussed the headbutt and he (Salisbury) debated that a little bit with me and said that it was a soft headbutt.

'I just said that's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. So we can headbutt people on a football pitch as long as it's deemed soft or not hard enough? So my son at home watching that or millions of children watching that, we're telling them that you can headbutt people on a football pitch, as long as it's not too hard.

'But they've since come out after that and sent their representatives to speak to one of our staff and said that by the letter of the law, that got that one wrong as well. That should have been a red card.'

============================================

A large 7 needs to be draped from the roof of The Mol for the next home game, and take it on the road to Arsenal next weekend, too.

I'd say we should also send the Under 23's down for the match, and dare them to penalize us more points. "We've already given at the office, sorry mate!!"

One (1) more catastrophic adverse decision gets us to 10 points, which Everton have been docked for violating FFP rules. On what planet is that fair?!?!?!?

No, two dodgy penalties, 2 red cards missed, it should be 9 pts.

 

[Flea]

No, two dodgy penalties, 2 red cards missed, it should be 9 pts.

It us totally unacceptable.
Worst thing is that it will continue like this for the unforeseen future as well.
I do expect they will have robbed us of 20 plus points when this season is laid to rest.
Then it is on to the next one...

 

[Wolves in Limerick]

Howard Webb wants to undo the damage he has already done - next three players for opposition that go down in the Wolves penalty area, regardless of whether or not it's a penalty, red card.

 

[Frank Lincoln]

Has any official ever watched the VAR screen themselves? I've never seen it, I'm not even sure if it's allowed? I'm guessing it's not because it would have the potential to slow the game down considerably.

The reason for VAR is to send you there when you've made an error. If the referee makes a call and VAR doesn't call, he's going to assume he made the right call.

It just goes to show you how badly the rulebook needs to be rewritten to be more black and white. The fact that there's any interpretation at all screams that there is a problem with the rules at the base.

Even us fans are all over the place.

I thought Semedo's was not a penalty. I thought the headbunt should have been a red. I thought the Hwang one was a penalty but I was fine without it having a second yellow. I thought the Gomes one was a penalty, even though I hate that type of penalty. There's people who agree and disagree with this all including the referees, VAR officials, and other supporters here. Which proves just how **** the rules are.

Was it Marco Silva who was shown the yellow card last season at Old Trafford? I think he followed the referee to the VAR screen, which he wasn’t allowed to do.

 

[Hanbury_Wolf]

We can't realistically claim an extra 7 points as if nothing else would have happened in those games subsequent to decisions being reversed or viewed differently-unless we're talking last kick of the match

Utd was last minute so 1 is reasonable
She utd was last minute so 1 is reasonable
Fulham was last minute so 1 is reasonable

You can debate the newcastle and luton ones.