8th. September 1888

[Frank Lincoln]

Everton fell out with the owner of Anfield, so looked for a new ground of their own (Goodison), the owner then set up his own team which turned out to be Liverpool.

Thank you. Isn't it amazing how things transpired. Had there not been a falling out, would Liverpool FC have even been born?

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

Thank you. Isn't it amazing how things transpired. Had there not been a falling out, would Liverpool FC have even been born?

Possibly not. There’s a lot of other former league clubs on Merseyside that you wonder whether would have had more success as a result, Bootle, New Brighton, even Chester, Southport and Tranmere at a push.

 

[Contrarian]

View attachment 23822

MS Excel V1.0?

 

[Hoganstolemywife]

Founding members of the football league and these ****s wanna sell off our name for fashion brands and computer gaming teams

LOL

Even on here that made me laugh.

 

[Contrarian]

As a Londoner I'm interested why there were no Southern teams in the original league? It would make sense that factories formed football teams to encourage health and comradeship which played one another in the locality and over time they formed a wider league. I seem to recall you had sides like Corinthian Casuals and Old Etonians from the South formed from a different background completely from the more Northern teams. I must research all this as it is quite fascinating, esp if you have an interest in social and industrial history.

Yeah, it is interesting. There are a fair few books on this, these days. I really liked this one :

Beastly Fury: The Strange Birth Of British Football: Amazon.co.uk: Sanders, Richard: 9780553819359: Books

Buy Beastly Fury: The Strange Birth Of British Football by Sanders, Richard (ISBN: 9780553819359) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

The FA Cup had started only 16 years earlier and was the opposite in that it was all Southern teams (and Queens Park of Glasgow?). And all amateur, I think? This divide between Amateur and Professional was very important, back then. The Pro- teams were viewed by many as a bit like we view the Super League today. Cash grabbing mercenaries ruining the real spirit of the game, which was presumably best represented by public school educated amateurs playing "proper football". Forming a professional league "will be the end of football", they said.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Yeah, it is interesting. There are a fair few books on this, these days. I really liked this one :

Beastly Fury: The Strange Birth Of British Football: Amazon.co.uk: Sanders, Richard: 9780553819359: Books

Buy Beastly Fury: The Strange Birth Of British Football by Sanders, Richard (ISBN: 9780553819359) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

The FA Cup had started only 16 years earlier and was the opposite in that it was all Southern teams (and Queens Park of Glasgow?). And all amateur, I think? This divide between Amateur and Professional was very important, back then. The Pro- teams were viewed by many as a bit like we view the Super League today. Cash grabbing mercenaries ruining the real spirit of the game, which was presumably best represented by public school educated amateurs playing "proper football". Forming a professional league "will be the end of football", they said.

Thanks for that Contrarian. I'll try to find that book. The Olympics have gone very much like football did. All honest amateurs (well perhaps not East Germany!) back in the day, working 9-5 and then off training in the evening! Ahhhh, for the simpler times!

 

[Shergar]

MS Excel V1.0?

Sage.

 

[Frank Lincoln]

Sheffield FC are the oldest football club in the world, yet were not invited to join the newly formed football league, I can only presume that is because they insisted on remaining amateur. Though they were the pioneers of FA Amateur Cup.

Sheffield FC currently play in the Northern Premier League and are based at Dronfield in Derbyshire.

 

[Ironfistedmonk]

As a Londoner I'm interested why there were no Southern teams in the original league? It would make sense that factories formed football teams to encourage health and comradeship which played one another in the locality and over time they formed a wider league. I seem to recall you had sides like Corinthian Casuals and Old Etonians from the South formed from a different background completely from the more Northern teams. I must research all this as it is quite fascinating, esp if you have an interest in social and industrial history.

I think the teams in the Midlands and NW who formed the league were the best sides in the country at the time, don't think football was as established in the south then, a separate Southern League was in existence for a while but the Football League was the superior league and those teams left to join the proper league, Old Etonians and Corinthians were amateur sides and remained so even after football became professional as they felt it was more in the spirit of the game

 

[TheConcourse]

Interesting to see that all of the representation came from the Midlands and the North. What’s the reason for that?

Edit: just seen that the question’s already been asked.

 

[AW]

Sheffield FC are the oldest football club in the world, yet were not invited to join the newly formed football league, I can only presume that is because they insisted on remaining amateur. Though they were the pioneers of FA Amateur Cup.

Sheffield FC currently play in the Northern Premier League and are based at Dronfield in Derbyshire.

Well aware of them being the oldest but who did they play? Surely another team must have been set up at almost exactly the same side to form their opposition (unless they just did shirts v skins amongst themselves)?

 

[WickedWolfie]

Well aware of them being the oldest but who did they play? Surely another team must have been set up at almost exactly the same side to form their opposition (unless they just did shirts v skins amongst themselves)?

Yup but, unlike lots of other clubs, they kept going....

 

[Very Proud (AKA Still Proud)]

MS Excel V1.0?

Don't be ridiculous, it was Lotus 123 back then.

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

Well aware of them being the oldest but who did they play? Surely another team must have been set up at almost exactly the same side to form their opposition (unless they just did shirts v skins amongst themselves)?

They were formed as an offshoot of a cricket club with games played amongst members.

Hallam FC are the second oldest club,
formed in 1860 and they played their first fixture against each other the same year. Hallam’s ground, Sandygate, is the oldest football ground in the world.

 

[AW]

They were formed as an offshoot of a cricket club with games played amongst members.

Hallam FC are the second oldest club,
formed in 1860 and they played their first fixture against each other the same year. Hallam’s ground, Sandygate, is the oldest football ground in the world.

Now you say it I recall a few years ago there was a match played between Sheffield FC and Hallam FC to commemorate the anniversary of the first game.

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

Sheffield FC are the oldest football club in the world, yet were not invited to join the newly formed football league, I can only presume that is because they insisted on remaining amateur. Though they were the pioneers of FA Amateur Cup.

Sheffield FC currently play in the Northern Premier League and are based at Dronfield in Derbyshire.

Correct about them remaining amateur.

Mentioning Sheffield reminds me that it’s a similar story to football in Liverpool. Wednesday were established as the senior team in the city by the 1880’s, and played at Bramall Lane until 1887 when they decided to build their own ground (Olive Grove) after a dispute over rent. The owners or Bramall Lane decided to set up a club to replace the lost income and thus United were born two years later in 1889.

Chelsea have a similar history, Stamford Bridge was bought from the local athletics club by a couple of businessman to host multiple sports events, and they wanted Fulham to move there. They refused and thus Chelsea were formed in 1905 to play at the stadium.

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

Now you say it I recall a few years ago there was a match played between Sheffield FC and Hallam FC to commemorate the anniversary of the first game.

They regularly meet at non league level, albeit Sheffield have been a couple of leagues above Hallam in recent years

 

[Contrarian]

I think the teams in the Midlands and NW who formed the league were the best sides in the country at the time, don't think football was as established in the south then, a separate Southern League was in existence for a while but the Football League was the superior league and those teams left to join the proper league, Old Etonians and Corinthians were amateur sides and remained so even after football became professional as they felt it was more in the spirit of the game

Yes, just had a check and it's surprising how late it was before the southerners joined in. Arsenal (presumably Woolwich Arsenal back then) were the first top division league team south of Birmingham. And they didn't get in till 1904-05 season. And the rest of us have regretted it ever since. Luton were another suprisingly early joiner (in the second division) as were Bristol City, which is surprising considering how totally rubbish both have been in the 125 years since.

 

[Frank Lincoln]

Yes, just had a check and it's surprising how late it was before the southerners joined in. Arsenal (presumably Woolwich Arsenal back then) were the first top division league team south of Birmingham. And they didn't get in till 1904-05 season. And the rest of us have regretted it ever since. Luton were another suprisingly early joiner (in the second division) as were Bristol City, which is surprising considering how totally rubbish both have been in the 125 years since.

I think there were plenty of teams springing up in the south. Wanderers FC, originally Forest FC, were one of the founders of the Football Association. Wanderers won the FA Cup six times, and you have to go to the 1882/83 season before one of the northern based clubs won the competition, that club being Blackburn Rovers. I am guessing that was the first year the FA Cup was an 'open' competition. The first Midlands club to win it was Aston Villa, I think.

 

[Incognito]

The originals should form a breakaway league. That'll teach 'em.

 

[Contrarian]

I think there were plenty of teams springing up in the south. Wanderers FC, originally Forest FC, were one of the founders of the Football Association. Wanderers won the FA Cup six times, and you have to go to the 1882/83 season before one of the northern based clubs won the competition, that club being Blackburn Rovers. I am guessing that was the first year the FA Cup was an 'open' competition. The first Midlands club to win it was Aston Villa, I think.

Yes, the FA Cup was originally dominated by the southerners. However Wanderers etc. never joined the league. In that 1888 first league season, we beat Old Carthusians 4-3 in the FA Cup. We ended up in the final (losing to double winners Preston). So we must have been one of the best in the country at that time, 3rd in the league, FA Cup runners up. So Old Carthusians must have been half-decent to get as close as a 3-4 defeat. The FA Cup was important, then, so we wouldn't have fielded the under 23s!

Must have been interesting at that time to have all these pro- or semi- pro northerners against the public schools and Royal Engineers amateurs who had basically formed the rules of the game nearly 20 years earlier. But they had refused to join the football league, the FA Cup must have have a lot of significance.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

did we have more than 3 centre midfielders?

I doubt it. Back then 1-1-8 was a valid formation.

 

[whitnash wolf ex.dewsbury]

our average crowd 1888/89 was 3980(really difficult to get accurate figures until 1925)

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

Yes, the FA Cup was originally dominated by the southerners. However Wanderers etc. never joined the league. In that 1888 first league season, we beat Old Carthusians 4-3 in the FA Cup. We ended up in the final (losing to double winners Preston). So we must have been one of the best in the country at that time, 3rd in the league, FA Cup runners up. So Old Carthusians must have been half-decent to get as close as a 3-4 defeat. The FA Cup was important, then, so we wouldn't have fielded the under 23s!

Must have been interesting at that time to have all these pro- or semi- pro northerners against the public schools and Royal Engineers amateurs who had basically formed the rules of the game nearly 20 years earlier. But they had refused to join the football league, the FA Cup must have have a lot of significance.

It was more the money than significance.

During the mid eighteenth century, there were no set rules as we understand them, most teams usually played to their own version and if playing another club, the rules were normally agreed before kick off, or often one half would be played under one set of rules and the other under the other clubs interpretation of football. Eventually groups came together trying to say their rules were the right ones, the football association being one of them.

To further their cause, the FA put up a challenge cup with a prize to play for with the stipulation that clubs should sign up to playing their rules.

All a lot of Victorian willy waving.

 

[Frank Lincoln]

our average crowd 1888/89 was 3980(really difficult to get accurate figures until 1925)

Did Wolves start in the new league playing at Dudley Road?

 

[kennyB]

On the 8th. September 1888 the first football league games ever played took place. The results were :

Everton 2 Accrington 1( at Anfield, home of Everton)
Aston Villa 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers1
Preston North End 5 Burnley 2
Stoke 0 West Bromwich Albion 2
Bolton Wanderers 3 Derby County 6

Blackburn Rovers v Notts. County was played a week later.

Gresham Cox of Aston Villa scored the first ever league goal.

Preston North End were crowned champions, and were unbeaten for all 22 games.

I wonder what it was like at the begining of it all.

My friends and family say that I was there but I'm so old I can't remember for sure! I do remember us winning the cup for the first time in 1893!

 

[whitnash wolf ex.dewsbury]

Did Wolves start in the new league playing at Dudley Road?

yes ,moved to molineux the next season.they had played a cup game at molineux in 1886
dudley road had a capacity of 10,000 when wolves left.
wolves didn`t get an average crowd over 10,00 until 1911/12

 

[Ned]

On the 8th. September 1888 the first football league games ever played took place. The results were :

Everton 2 Accrington 1( at Anfield, home of Everton)
Aston Villa 1 Wolverhampton Wanderers1
Preston North End 5 Burnley 2
Stoke 0 West Bromwich Albion 2
Bolton Wanderers 3 Derby County 6

Blackburn Rovers v Notts. County was played a week later.

Gresham Cox of Aston Villa scored the first ever league goal.

Preston North End were crowned champions, and were unbeaten for all 22 games.

I wonder what it was like at the begining of it all.

Disappointed in Semedo for the Villa goal, tbh.

 

[Jack Russell]

We had a goal ruled out for a toe nail being offside

Did they have some sort of clockwork VAR in those days?

 

[whitnash wolf ex.dewsbury]

Did they have some sort of clockwork VAR in those days?

they had photos but some delay while they were developed and the crowd didn`t know what was happening!!

 

[whitnash wolf ex.dewsbury]

when the league started they hadn`t decided whether they should
have points or goal average to decide who won!

 

[SuperGran]

they had photos but some delay while they were developed and the crowd didn`t know what was happening!!

Still quicker than VAR

 

[Oldvic161]

Watch “the English game“ was on Netflix, about the start of football, basically toffs down south had their own rules and always won the cup, think Blackburn are in it and they were naughty getting a couple of jocks down to play for them..

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

our average crowd 1888/89 was 3980(really difficult to get accurate figures until 1925)

About the same as the mid 80s!!!

 

[whitnash wolf ex.dewsbury]

About the same as the mid 80s!!!

true enough 4,020 in 1985/86
lets hope we never get that low again
or it could be a 100year cycle

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Yeah, it is interesting. There are a fair few books on this, these days. I really liked this one :

Beastly Fury: The Strange Birth Of British Football: Amazon.co.uk: Sanders, Richard: 9780553819359: Books

Buy Beastly Fury: The Strange Birth Of British Football by Sanders, Richard (ISBN: 9780553819359) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

The FA Cup had started only 16 years earlier and was the opposite in that it was all Southern teams (and Queens Park of Glasgow?). And all amateur, I think? This divide between Amateur and Professional was very important, back then. The Pro- teams were viewed by many as a bit like we view the Super League today. Cash grabbing mercenaries ruining the real spirit of the game, which was presumably best represented by public school educated amateurs playing "proper football". Forming a professional league "will be the end of football", they said.

Been trawling through Amazon, you can get a used copy for £3.88 - tempted! When you look inside the book there are 10 pages of bibliography at the back. So plenty of literature on the subject. I see one guy did his PHD thesis on the history of football in Lancashire. The history of football in the Midlands would have been worth going to University for! The only name in the bibliography that I kind of recognise is Percy Young but I can't think why?

 

[whitnash wolf ex.dewsbury]

Been trawling through Amazon, you can get a used copy for £3.88 - tempted! When you look inside the book there are 10 pages of bibliography at the back. So plenty of literature on the subject. I see one guy did his PHD thesis on the history of football in Lancashire. The history of football in the Midlands would have been worth going to University for! The only name in the bibliography that I kind of recognise is Percy Young but I can't think why?

Dr.percy young wrote 2 books on wolves and programme notes for many years
the books were wolves.the first 80 years and
centenary wolves

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Dr.percy young wrote 2 books on wolves and programme notes for many years
the books were wolves.the first 80 years and
centenary wolves

Thanks Dews, I knew I knew his name. I'll look him up in my old programmes. In the book quoted above Percy Young's contributions are books on Bolton, Sheffield and Man U, but not Wolves. Obviously a man of many interests and knowledge of several football clubs. I can vaguely recall his programme notes ( from matches in the 50s and 60s I think) and they spanned the 2 central pages of the 8 page (?) programme. I think he talked about football in general rather than Wolves specific. There will be 1 or 2 on here who will have been at games and collected these programmes but before my time!

 

[whitnash wolf ex.dewsbury]

Thanks Dews, I knew I knew his name. I'll look him up in my old programmes. In the book quoted above Percy Young's contributions are books on Bolton, Sheffield and Man U, but not Wolves. Obviously a man of many interests and knowledge of several football clubs. I can vaguely recall his programme notes ( from matches in the 50s and 60s I think) and they spanned the 2 central pages of the 8 page (?) programme. I think he talked about football in general rather than Wolves specific. There will be 1 or 2 on here who will have been at games and collected these programmes but before my time!

think ivan sharpe did a lot of programme notes

 

[Contrarian]

Been trawling through Amazon, you can get a used copy for £3.88 - tempted! When you look inside the book there are 10 pages of bibliography at the back. So plenty of literature on the subject. I see one guy did his PHD thesis on the history of football in Lancashire. The history of football in the Midlands would have been worth going to University for! The only name in the bibliography that I kind of recognise is Percy Young but I can't think why?

Well worth it - though I have the ultra-cheap Kindle version. If anyone knows a better book on the early years, please share the title! I read The Beastly Fury just before that TV docu-drama on Lord Kinnaird a couple of years back. Personally preferred the book as it is has a *load* more background in it (on the social contexts of the time) and was less Hollywood-ised.