4 at the back for the remainder of the season?

[manchesterwolf17]

Patricio

Semedo Boly Saiss Marcal

Neves Dendoncker

Traore Podence Neto

Jose



The best we've looked this season in my opinion was against Southampton at home in the 2H, and Arsenal away in the first.

The connection there is that we've played Traore, Podence and Neto at the same time, with a striker in front of them. There isn't a team in the country who wouldn't have problems dealing with those 3. The issue is we haven't had Jimenez, other than in the Southampton game I referenced, where we honestly looked the best we have in a long, long time in terms of an attacking threat.

I really don't understand the notion that we suffer defensively because of this formation? To my mind, we conceded 1 against Southampton, and 1 against Arsenal. They're decent opposition. It happens.

Am I right in thinking the only other occasions we've deployed this formation is Liverpool away and Villa at home? The latter in which we never looked like conceding all game until the final minute due to a lapse in concentration, against a side who've shoved 7 past Liverpool this season.

Sure we get a hiding at Anfield. Many sides do.

It's also worth noting that we've never played a back 4 without Coady. That again will be a way forward.

I watch the likes of West Ham, Villa etc. Teams are being rewarded for playing positive, attacking football. Yet when I look at their players, they're no better than what we have. The difference is mindset and intent to go out and win a game of football.

Playing 5 at the back does not make us any better defensively. Yet it undoubtedly makes us blunter offensively. I firmly believe we missed out on European football last campaign because of our inability to consistently threaten sides like Newcastle, Burnley and Brighton within games. This is why we never seem to beat these sides, where as other top half teams take 3 points without breaking a sweat more often than not.

The biggest elephant in the room and probably the point I want to make more than any - Now we have a proper striker back in the squad!

This is 100% the way to go . That is what will take us to the next level. Perhaps tomorrow we won't see it, because Jose won't be available, but from Palace onward I see no reason for it not to be the case. We've been so unfortunate losing Jimenez, particularly just as we finally started to change approach. But we are no longer relying on an 18 year old kid to be our number 9.

We have the players. Lets use the remainder of this season to get used to the system and in perfect preparation for next when we can bring in a new CB and CM and really go at teams, and become a difficult side to play against, whilst also enjoyable to watch.

 

[BigSteve]

Patricio

Semedo Boly Saiss Marcal

Neves Dendoncker

Traore Podence Neto

Jose



The best we've looked this season in my opinion was against Southampton at home in the 2H, and Arsenal away in the first.

The connection there is that we've played Traore, Podence and Neto at the same time, with a striker in front of them. There isn't a team in the country who wouldn't have problems dealing with those 3. The issue is we haven't had Jimenez, other than in the Southampton game I referenced, where we honestly looked the best we have in a long, long time in terms of an attacking threat.

I really don't understand the notion that we suffer defensively because of this formation? To my mind, we conceded 1 against Southampton, and 1 against Arsenal. They're decent opposition. It happens.

Am I right in thinking the only other occasions we've deployed this formation is Liverpool away and Villa at home? The latter in which we never looked like conceding all game until the final minute due to a lapse in concentration, against a side who've shoved 7 past Liverpool this season.

Sure we get a hiding at Anfield. Many sides do.

It's also worth noting that we've never played a back 4 without Coady. That again will be a way forward.

I watch the likes of West Ham, Villa etc. Teams are being rewarded for playing positive, attacking football. Yet when I look at their players, they're no better than what we have. The difference is mindset and intent to go out and win a game of football.

Playing 5 at the back does not make us any better defensively. Yet it undoubtedly makes us blunter offensively. I firmly believe we missed out on European football last campaign because of our inability to consistently threaten sides like Newcastle, Burnley and Brighton within games. This is why we never seem to beat these sides, where as other top half teams take 3 points without breaking a sweat more often than not.

The biggest elephant in the room and probably the point I want to make more than any - Now we have a proper striker back in the squad!

This is 100% the way to go . That is what will take us to the next level. Perhaps tomorrow we won't see it, because Jose won't be available, but from Palace onward I see no reason for it not to be the case. We've been so unfortunate losing Jimenez, particularly just as we finally started to change approach. But we are no longer relying on an 18 year old kid to be our number 9.

We have the players. Lets use the remainder of this season to get used to the system and in perfect preparation for next when we can bring in a new CB and CM and really go at teams, and become a difficult side to play against, whilst also enjoyable to watch.

I can't see us dropping the captain for the remainder of the season and personally I think we are much better defensively with 3 CBs.

Yet to be convinced about Semedo in a 4. So yeah I think this is one variant we will see but I can't see it being the default lineup.

 

[Lisas Husband]

Personally I'd go for the 3 at the back for the remainder of the season and address the 4 at the back during close season.
But if we were to go with a 4 then I'd feel more comfortable giving Hoever instead of Semedo a crack.

Semedo in a 3.
Hoever in a 4.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

I can't see us dropping the captain for the remainder of the season and personally I think we are much better defensively with 3 CBs.

Yet to be convinced about Semedo in a 4. So yeah I think this is one variant we will see but I can't see it being the default lineup.

I agree regarding Coady. But I'm wondering if that's more so now to do with us lacking anyone considerably better in that position rather than anything else. He is undoubtedly under pressure if we are to go with 4 at the back next season, with a summer to bring in an experienced, top quality CB.

I disagree in the sense that is makes us much better defensively with 3 CBs. We look poor either way for me. The difference being we look like we can score ourselves on a more regular basis without.

 

[SA Wolf]

We played for three seasons with a back three. It was drummed into the players and each new signings was brought in to play that formation. We won the Championship and got two 7th place finishes playing that way with one of the most-miserly defences in the league. We try a different system and hey-presto, we ship goals for fun and tumble down the league until we are just above the relegation scrap. Coincidence? I think not!

 

[pacamac]

If we go exclusively 4 at the back for the rest of the season we're relegated.

Its a good option to have when games suit but thats it.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

We played for three seasons with a back three. It was drummed into the players and each new signings was brought in to play that formation. We won the Championship and got two 7th place finishes playing that way with one of the most-miserly defences in the league. We try a different system and hey-presto, we ship goals for fun and tumble down the league until we are just above the relegation scrap. Coincidence? I think not!

In what games have we played 4 at the back and conceded more than 1 goal a game, other than at Anfield? I ask that genuinely, not smugly.

I also think losing Jimenez at the exact same time we changed formation is unbelievably bad luck. Since then we've been effectively playing without a striker. Someone who can hold the ball up and get others involved around them. And of course, put the ball in the net.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

If we go exclusively 4 at the back for the rest of the season we're relegated.

Its a good option to have when games suit but thats it.

We're conceding goals regardless. The difference is we don't create anything ourselves with a 5.

 

[Summer_Wolf]

Not a chance he drops Coady. But 1000% agree that a back 4 would be better without him. I don't see Nuno doing it yet though, he'll go back to a back 5 ie back to what we know. Back to basics, hopefully grind some results out and build some confidence.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

Not a chance he drops Coady. But 1000% agree that a back 4 would be better without him. I don't see Nuno doing it yet though, he'll go back to a back 5 ie back to what we know. Back to basics, hopefully grind some results out and build some confidence.

I think this is ultimately what will happen as well.

 

[Minimalist]

2 systems:
343 & 4231
Basically you either have a sweeper OR a 10.

I would probably only ever seriously consider 4231 if we had a fit Neto Podence & Traore to play behind a striker.

Definitely don’t like 433. We don’t have the right midfielders for it.

 

[Wolf in Kenilworth]

If we play only 2 centre halves for the rest of the season we will be in the Chanpionship come August.

We need to be safe from relegation first, yes I am serious, then Nuno can experiment and see where we need to evolve to next season and with what personnel.

 

[MolineuxMixer]

The way we’ve been leaking goals lately and our lack of goals I’d go for a 91 when defending and a 19 when attacking formation!

 

[ombyman]

Not a chance he drops Coady. But 1000% agree that a back 4 would be better without him. I don't see Nuno doing it yet though, he'll go back to a back 5 ie back to what we know. Back to basics, hopefully grind some results out and build some confidence.

Is there an argument for a back four with boly and Saiss as centre backs and then coady as a deep midfielder ahead of them?

 

[Deleted member 11332]

If we play only 2 centre halves for the rest of the season we will be in the Chanpionship come August.

We need to be safe from relegation first, yes I am serious, then Nuno can experiment and see where we need to evolve to next season and with what personnel.

I think that's ridiculous. We are realistically about 15 points from safety, you don't think we could pick up 4 wins and 3 draws from 19 games with a back 4?

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

Patricio

Semedo Boly Saiss Marcal

Neves Dendoncker

Traore Podence Neto

Jose



The best we've looked this season in my opinion was against Southampton at home in the 2H, and Arsenal away in the first.

The connection there is that we've played Traore, Podence and Neto at the same time, with a striker in front of them. There isn't a team in the country who wouldn't have problems dealing with those 3. The issue is we haven't had Jimenez, other than in the Southampton game I referenced, where we honestly looked the best we have in a long, long time in terms of an attacking threat.

I really don't understand the notion that we suffer defensively because of this formation? To my mind, we conceded 1 against Southampton, and 1 against Arsenal. They're decent opposition. It happens.

Am I right in thinking the only other occasions we've deployed this formation is Liverpool away and Villa at home? The latter in which we never looked like conceding all game until the final minute due to a lapse in concentration, against a side who've shoved 7 past Liverpool this season.

Sure we get a hiding at Anfield. Many sides do.

It's also worth noting that we've never played a back 4 without Coady. That again will be a way forward.

I watch the likes of West Ham, Villa etc. Teams are being rewarded for playing positive, attacking football. Yet when I look at their players, they're no better than what we have. The difference is mindset and intent to go out and win a game of football.

Playing 5 at the back does not make us any better defensively. Yet it undoubtedly makes us blunter offensively. I firmly believe we missed out on European football last campaign because of our inability to consistently threaten sides like Newcastle, Burnley and Brighton within games. This is why we never seem to beat these sides, where as other top half teams take 3 points without breaking a sweat more often than not.

The biggest elephant in the room and probably the point I want to make more than any - Now we have a proper striker back in the squad!

This is 100% the way to go . That is what will take us to the next level. Perhaps tomorrow we won't see it, because Jose won't be available, but from Palace onward I see no reason for it not to be the case. We've been so unfortunate losing Jimenez, particularly just as we finally started to change approach. But we are no longer relying on an 18 year old kid to be our number 9.

We have the players. Lets use the remainder of this season to get used to the system and in perfect preparation for next when we can bring in a new CB and CM and really go at teams, and become a difficult side to play against, whilst also enjoyable to watch.

I genuinely think we could go down if we persist with the back four, especially with Saiss as one of them.
The reason it has failed has not been due to a lack of goals. It has been the sheer amount we have conceded. If we are giving goals away like we did against Brighton and West brom it won't matter what our front 4 can do. Great that we have an experienced number 9, but that isn't going to help us keep a clean sheet.
Personally, I thought our best performance came in the 2-0 win against crystal palace. But we threw that in the fire because we lost 1-0 against leicester; which is hardly the low point of the season.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

I think that's ridiculous. We are realistically about 15 points from safety, you don't think we could pick up 4 wins and 3 draws from 19 games with a back 4?

We have picked up one win so far, and couldn't beat Brighton or albion. So no, I'm not sure we could.

 

[CelebrityWolf]

Don't understand why we have to be so loyal to any one system. We needed to evolve and not just play a back three forever but to just now play a back four forever only leads to the same problems. Flexibility is key.

 

[Minimalist]

Is there an argument for a back four with boly and Saiss as centre backs and then coady as a deep midfielder ahead of them?

If one of them moves into midfield I’d definitely choose Saiss.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

On balance I think I'd go with 5 at the back because it's what we know and my belief is that it will get us more points to get us through to the end of the season. Our mf don't create whatever formation we have so goals will always be at a premium and this way I think we'll let in less. Next season is a whole new thing. I'm all for a 4 then and adopt an attacking style to get us back on track.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

2 systems:
343 & 4231
Basically you either have a sweeper OR a 10.

I would probably only ever seriously consider 4231 if we had a fit Neto Podence & Traore to play behind a striker.

Definitely don’t like 433. We don’t have the right midfielders for it.

A sweeper or a ten?
What about full/wing backs? How far forward can you push both forward in a 4 and get away with it, without having to have a midfielder come over and sit in?
I see this as one of the reasons we have conceded so many recently, either you make sure the back 4 stay as a back 4 or you get one of the midfielders to sit. I don't think any of our midfielders have been doing that effectively, and our full back's sure as hell haven't been disciplined.

 

[ombyman]

If one of them moves into midfield I’d definitely choose Saiss.

I was thinking coady as it would move the focus of the team further up the pitch with his communication. But yeah agree about Saiss.
If it was coady, he could do a neves and go and stand between boly and Saiss anyway!

 

[goldeneyed]

If we have Podence as a No.10 with Traore, Jose and Neto up front - Neves and Dendoncker as DMs , Semedo and Ait Nouri as wing backs and say Boly Coady /Saiss as the back two CBs with Rui that might just about work as unlike now the ball would not keep pinging back to put pressure on the defence. But without that front four formation definitely revert to three at the back, five in the middle and two up front, especially against the best teams.

 

[92WWFC]

If we have Podence as a No.10 with Traore, Jose and Neto up front - Neves and Dendoncker as DMs , Semedo and Ait Nouri as wing backs and say Boly Coady /Saiss as the back two CBs with Rui that might just about work as unlike now the ball would not keep pinging back to put pressure on the defence. But without that front four formation definitely revert to three at the back, five in the middle and two up front, especially against the best teams.

Yeah that attacking three behind Jose would be the only way I'm confident with 4231 right now. Only in some games though. It's looked very good in patches and would keep the ball much better, we definitely create more chances. Maybe after a preseason we can use it more widely.

But other than that 352/343 for the most part. I honestly think Nuno will stick with 5 at the back now. Get a rhythm going before starting again next season.

 

[tamwolf]

Don't understand why we have to be so loyal to any one system. We needed to evolve and not just play a back three forever but to just now play a back four forever only leads to the same problems. Flexibility is key.

I agree with this. We should be able to adapt our approach on a game by game basis.

The back three was awful against West Ham and Burnley. Its been poor in games against teams that play with men behind the ball for a few seasons and that weakness in the system probably caused us to miss out on a top 6 finish last season.

Where is has been good is in games where we are expected to have less possession or against teams that play really narrow. I'm not sure why we can't be flexible on how we set up to make the most of each system's strengths based on who we play.

 

[theweave]

I think to be solid defensively in a 4 we would need Marcal and Jonny as the fullbacks

 

[WufflerMuffler]

In the 4-at-the-back versus What-We-Did-So-Well-In-Last-Three-Seasons debate, we've surely got to remember in that all started with a pre-season training and system-learning that rocketed us out of the Chump and into 7th and 7th - whereas this season, zilcho pre-season. Therefore, for the second half of season, boring or not, maybe we have to stick to Concede-Possession, Absorb-Pressure, Fast-Counterattack.

 

[maws]

Back 4 all the way for me, let’s transition, unfortunately it does mean dropping Coady

Rui
Nelson Boly Saiss Ait Nouri (Jonny)

Neves Otasowie

Adama Vitinha (Podence ) Neto
Silva (Jose)

There’s starting to be a competitive squad too

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Back 4 all the way for me, let’s transition, unfortunately it does mean dropping Coady

Rui
Nelson Boly Saiss Ait Nouri (Jonny)

Neves Otasowie

Adama Vitinha (Podence ) Neto
Silva (Jose)

There’s starting to be a competitive squad too

Got a puppy maws?

I'm staying 5 at the back for now. As said above, if we have 2 fullbacks who don't play like wingbacks maybe we could do it. 4231 is great but not with currently fit personnel.

 

[Contrarian]

In the 4-at-the-back versus What-We-Did-So-Well-In-Last-Three-Seasons debate, we've surely got to remember in that all started with a pre-season training and system-learning that rocketed us out of the Chump and into 7th and 7th - whereas this season, zilcho pre-season. Therefore, for the second half of season, boring or not, maybe we have to stick to Concede-Possession, Absorb-Pressure, Fast-Counterattack.

Yes, it doesn't like we can make the change in current circumstances. We have to deal with things as they are, not some hypothetical ideal world where all our players are fit, we have bought the perfect squad to fulfill their roles and we have a full pre-season to fine tune it. We have none of that.

The fast counterattacking seems to have stalled somewhat with the current XI we are able to field. But still, the old cliche is that turning around a bad run always starts with sorting out the defence, stop leaking goals. A lot of truth in it and to me that has to be the first thing we address.

 

[Minimalist]

A sweeper or a ten?
What about full/wing backs? How far forward can you push both forward in a 4 and get away with it, without having to have a midfielder come over and sit in?
I see this as one of the reasons we have conceded so many recently, either you make sure the back 4 stay as a back 4 or you get one of the midfielders to sit. I don't think any of our midfielders have been doing that effectively, and our full back's sure as hell haven't been disciplined.

Absolutely.
I wasn’t meaning players wouldn’t have to adjust their game for the 2 formations. But In a 343 sometimes it’s a flat back 5 and sometimes wingbacks.

I don’t think we have the players for a back 4, and I think our best back 4 has Jonny at rb and marcal lb.
Also I think your point about the midfield is spot on; and exactly why I think we need 2 holding midfielders not one (the fundamental differences between 433 & 4231)

But: if we want transition to a back 4 eventually, then occasionally using it at the end of a game when we need a goal - loose the sweeper add Traore or podence, probably still allow the NOW fullbacks to get forward . It’s a way of introducing it gradually.

 

[maws]

Got a puppy maws?

I'm staying 5 at the back for now. As said above, if we have 2 fullbacks who don't play like wingbacks maybe we could do it. 4231 is great but not with currently fit personnel.

He’s a year old next Monday mate, Boly is his name

I think we need to attack woth. One full back, leaving 3 back plus a deep lying Neves. I’d rather lose 4-3 than 1-0

 

[Joshwolf218]

I would be interested wolves playing a system like Tuchel does

4-2-2-2

So basically a few pivot in midfield the wingers tuck in allowing the wingbacks space wide and then two forwards

Jose as the CF with someone playing of him

Could work

 

[reanswolf]

Don't think any combination of midfield 2 has given us good results, but then I don't think he will play just 4 at the back unless he plays 3 in midfield.

 

[Deleted member 11332]

We have picked up one win so far, and couldn't beat Brighton or albion. So no, I'm not sure we could.

6 Wins last time I checked.

 

[Bob Wolf]

I would love to stick with the 4 as it means we can have more attacking players on the field. But at the moment I just feel that we are too vulnerable at the back so I would go 343 until the summer and then hopefully upgrade the CB department. Bit of a shame that coady plays in that position as I think physically he is a bit of a gammy leg in a 4 but is still very important player in all other aspects.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

6 Wins last time I checked.

With a back 4?

 

[SA Wolf]

In what games have we played 4 at the back and conceded more than 1 goal a game, other than at Anfield? I ask that genuinely, not smugly.

I also think losing Jimenez at the exact same time we changed formation is unbelievably bad luck. Since then we've been effectively playing without a striker. Someone who can hold the ball up and get others involved around them. And of course, put the ball in the net.

I can't remember which matches we played 3 or 4 at the back. And I think that is part of the problem. We have flip-flopped between the two systems, confusing not only me, but the players as well. We need to revert to what we know and what has served us well.
In any case, even by conceding just one, means we have to score two to win matches and we're a team that even with Jimenez didn't really score many goals. We had a tight defence with three at the back and last season, Rui had many clean sheets (I think he had the 4th or 5th best record). Don't concede and scoring 1 wins the game!
If it ain't broke, don't fix it is a mantra that Nuno could do worse than to adopt.

 

[Deleted member 11332]

With a back 4?

We've only played about 5 games with a back 4 though. So we have a 20% win rate.

 

[luiandlui]

I think that’s probably the formation Nuno wants to use going forward. It only works if all our attacking players are fit though so we probably need at least one more attacking player on top of Jose.

Also if we are going to play two CBs it can’t be with Boly, that’s a recipe for shipping goals. Only Saiss is really capable of playing in a back four.

I don’t the we have seen the last of a back four but I suspect we will see a back five against Chelsea