Forest- possible points deduction

[S G Wolves]

Can someone explain to me why Forest, Everton and apparently Leicester City are being penalised, but Manchester City and Chelsea are (currently) not. Based on what’s happened (or may happen) to those first 3, the last 2 should be relegated if we are to understand the numerous rules they have broken.

Am I completely missing something or are the Premier League afraid of upsetting 2 members of the so called Big 6?

If this has been mentioned previously on this thread, I apologise, but, seriously, why is the Premier League dragging its heals in dealing with bloody Man City and Chelsea?

Chelsea will be next season unless they sell £200m worth of players.

They'll be getting penalised soon.

 

[Ginger Chimp]

Football, eh?

Bloody hell.

 

[CelebrityWolf]

The PL are not dragging their heals. The lawyers for the 2 clubs will be doing everything they can to drag this out.

Forest and Everton pleaded guilty. Msn City deny all 115 charges.

I hope when they finally get punished it’s relegation.

City will barely get punished. This whole thing has been brought in to safeguard the big clubs and stop the likes of us, Villa and Newcastle from ever bridging the gap.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Chelsea will be next season unless they sell £200m worth of players.

They'll be getting penalised soon.

Yeah I read that report. They need to sell 200m in players by the end of June or it looks like they will fail the next PSR reporting period. They have a big squad, but it will be tough to sell that many in that short a period.

 

[moseleyite]

Chelsea will be next season unless they sell £200m worth of players.

They'll be getting penalised soon.

Yeah I read that report. They need to sell 200m in players by the end of June or it looks like they will fail the next PSR reporting period. They have a big squad, but it will be tough to sell that many in that short a period.

Could they get their money back for a couple of the lads they bought from Brighton? That should cover it.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Could they get their money back for a couple of the lads they bought from Brighton? That should cover it.

Potentially, but it’s asking a lot to make 2-3 big money sales in the couple of weeks the window is open before the PSR deadline. Not impossible, just challenging. Now it’s been mentioned before that their owner got some of his money to buy Chelsea from the Saudi’s…

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Potentially, but it’s asking a lot to make 2-3 big money sales in the couple of weeks the window is open before the PSR deadline. Not impossible, just challenging. Now it’s been mentioned before that their owner got some of his money to buy Chelsea from the Saudi’s…

Chelsea in the mud did not see this one coming

 

[Fenrir_]

You're confusing the PSR submission deadline with the club's accounting deadline. They aren't necessarily the same. Basically a club has to get their accounts made up to their own deadline (in Wolves' case 31st May) then those accounts must be submitted for a PSR review by the Premier League by 30th June.

It's the most recent set of company accounts ending before the PSR deadline which are relevant. Neves' sale happened after May 31st so for PSR purposes it would be in the 23/24 accounting period not 22/23.

You're confusing it. The accounts have to be submitted in December and include anything up to June 30th, otherwise clubs that have an accounting period ending May 31st as we do would have an inherent disadvantage over those that have one that ends June 30th, because the later date allows clubs to shift players after the season has ended and include them in the previous season accounts. So for PSR purposes, ALL accounting periods end June 30th, regardless of what the individual club has, to make it a level playing field (for once)

 

[WickedWolfie]

Chelsea in the mud did not see this one coming

I'm assuming that they budgeted on being in the Champions League

 

[Surrey Wolf]

Potentially, but it’s asking a lot to make 2-3 big money sales in the couple of weeks the window is open before the PSR deadline. Not impossible, just challenging. Now it’s been mentioned before that their owner got some of his money to buy Chelsea from the Saudi’s…

Think i read they're banking on 100m from saudi for a couple of players

 

[WW1963]

Leicester charged by the PL now as well. likely if they come up will already have a deduction

Hypocrites always make the most noise. Delighted that they are getting done.

 

[hollo]

Think i read they're banking on 100m from saudi for a couple of players

They can wait in the queue until we've sold Jose sa for 40 million.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

I'm assuming that they budgeted on being in the Champions League

Yes, part of Chelsea’s issue is the lack of European football. Another part is the assumption that Mount sale was in this financial year, when it appears it was actually in the last year and helped them avoid a breach in that period. Obviously they have a mass of amortisation charges now built into their accounts for years to come, so this may be a recurring problem…

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

They can wait in the queue until we've sold Jose sa for 40 million.

Iv got a weird feeling some of the folllwing could move to Saudi for inflated prices Sa, Semedo, Sarabia, Guedes, Silva, Podence

 

[Superted]

I can't believe this is becoming so complicated.

To start with our accounting deadline is 31st May so that's easy.
Those accounts aren't submitted by 30th June, they don't get submitted until March of the following year (although I think it's earlier if they think you're sailing close to the wind!)
The question is whether the information submitted in March is just the accounts to May 31st, or does it include any transfers made in June.

I think you and Madeley are saying no, which means that different clubs are effectively operating under different rules.

Not quite true. They don't have to be submitted to companies house until 11 months after the end of the accounting period but they will have to make up their books and make a submission to the Premier League.

It just wouldn't be the final set of audited accounts because companies house and the PL are looking at different things.

It's just a question of timing.

 

[DanishWolf]

I'm assuming that they budgeted on being in the Champions League

So did Forest...

 

[jackdusty]

City will barely get punished. This whole thing has been brought in to safeguard the big clubs and stop the likes of us, Villa and Newcastle from ever bridging the gap.

What gets me is why did the clubs vote for it ?.

 

[WW1963]

Yeah I read that report. They need to sell 200m in players by the end of June or it looks like they will fail the next PSR reporting period. They have a big squad, but it will be tough to sell that many in that short a period.

Everybody should refuse to buy any of their players. The Saudis should do the same as it's in their interest to kill any competitors to Newcastle.

 

[Superted]

You're confusing it. The accounts have to be submitted in December and include anything up to June 30th, otherwise clubs that have an accounting period ending May 31st as we do would have an inherent disadvantage over those that have one that ends June 30th, because the later date allows clubs to shift players after the season has ended and include them in the previous season accounts. So for PSR purposes, ALL accounting periods end June 30th, regardless of what the individual club has, to make it a level playing field (for once)

That's not my understanding. I believe clubs can choose to harmonise their accounting period to June 30th if they wish but they're not obliged to.

The June 30th is not a deadline as such it's just the point at which one PSR assessment period becomes the next. The December submission deadline for the PL is for the most recent set of company accounts made up to the accounting period that ended before June 30th of that year. Transactions made between the end of the accounting period and June 30th fall into the next years accounts and therefore the next PSR assessment period.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Iv got a weird feeling some of the folllwing could move to Saudi for inflated prices Sa, Semedo, Sarabia, Guedes, Silva, Podence

It could all get interesting if the Saudis bought a chunk of Fosun...

 

[WickedWolfie]

So did Forest...

Champions League, Championship.... It's an easy mistake to make lol....

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

It could all get interesting if the Saudis bought a chunk of Fosun...

Hmmmm best we keep quiet

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

That's not my understanding. I believe clubs can choose to harmonise their accounting period to June 30th if they wish but they're not obliged to.

The June 30th is not a deadline as such it's just the point at which one PSR assessment period becomes the next. The December submission deadline for the PL is for the most recent set of company accounts made up to the accounting period that ended before June 30th of that year. Transactions made between the end of the accounting period and June 30th fall into the next years accounts and therefore the next PSR assessment period.

Sorry if I'm struggling with this, but just for my own clarity....

You seem to have said that 30th June is where PSR periods run for all clubs - regardless of when they submut accounts to Companies House.

But then that transactions in June go into the next accounts (obviously), but also the next PSR period.

Keep it simple for me, Neves sold in June - does he count in PSR for 22/23 or 23/24?

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Sorry if I'm struggling with this, but just for my own clarity....

You seem to have said that 30th June is where PSR periods run for all clubs - regardless of when they submut accounts to Companies House.

But then that transactions in June go into the next accounts (obviously), but also the next PSR period.

Keep it simple for me, Neves sold in June - does he count in PSR for 22/23 or 23/24?

Yes we done it the confusing way to stop others like forest crying about our correct actions

 

[AndyY]

Yeah I read that report. They need to sell 200m in players by the end of June or it looks like they will fail the next PSR reporting period. They have a big squad, but it will be tough to sell that many in that short a period.

If I was any club thinking of buying a Chelsea player I would wait until July - 1) they will be desperate and price should go down and 2) they will be faced with a points deduction!

 

[Sussex Wolf]

If I was any club thinking of buying a Chelsea player I would wait until July - 1) they will be desperate and price should go down and 2) they will be faced with a points deduction!

Well, maybe the end of June…

The thing is, most PL clubs face the same deadline, so they won’t be keen to buy before it either. Most European clubs outside England are skint, so the only deep pockets are in Saudi…

 

[JonahWolf]

Potentially, but it’s asking a lot to make 2-3 big money sales in the couple of weeks the window is open before the PSR deadline. Not impossible, just challenging. Now it’s been mentioned before that their owner got some of his money to buy Chelsea from the Saudi’s…

And has been holding face to face talks with the Saudi league’s technical director.
They’d have been in even more of a hole if hadn’t already offloaded ageing, injury prone and massive wage Koulibaly and Kante there.

 

[AndyY]

We could be top of the league before kick off on the first match of the next season on zero points and everyone else on minus numbers!!!

 

[Superted]

Sorry if I'm struggling with this, but just for my own clarity....

You seem to have said that 30th June is where PSR periods run for all clubs - regardless of when they submut accounts to Companies House.

But then that transactions in June go into the next accounts (obviously), but also the next PSR period.

Keep it simple for me, Neves sold in June - does he count in PSR for 22/23 or 23/24?

23/24 for Neves.

Im not sure how to simplify it really.

The PSR period for 22/23 ended on June 30th 2023.

Our accounting period for 22/23 ended on May 31st 2023.

So our 22/23 accounts that we need to submit for the 22/23 PSR period happen to be made up to 31st May. This is probably because the company was incorporated on 1st June.

Depending on the club the 22/23 accounting year could be anything from August 21-July 22 to July 22-June 23 because they end in the period between 1st July 2022 and 30th June 2023.

The PSR date of 30th June 2023 was the end of the period where a club's 2022/2023 accounts were relevant. After this date a club's 2023/2024 accounts apply, regardless of what month they end in.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

23/24 for Neves.

Im not sure how to simplify it really.

The PSR period for 22/23 ended on June 30th 2023.

Our accounting period for 22/23 ended on May 31st 2023.

So our 22/23 accounts that we need to submit for the 22/23 PSR period happen to be made up to 31st May. This is probably because the company was incorporated on 1st June.

Depending on the club the 22/23 accounting year could be anything from August 21-July 22 to July 22-June 23 because they end in the period between 1st July 2022 and 30th June 2023.

The PSR date of 30th June 2023 was the end of the period where a club's 2022/2023 accounts were relevant. After this date a club's 2023/2024 accounts apply, regardless of what month they end in.

Right got it now (I think) thanks, so we literally can't balance our books with a summer sale, because by the time the window opens our books are closed. Whereas Forest last year (and e.g. Chelsea this season) could have got out of a hole by selling in June. And Villa can have a 13 month year this year and sell after the season finishes rather than in January to balance their books!

 

[Superted]

Right got it now (I think) thanks, so we literally can't balance our books with a summer signing because by the time the window opens our books are closed. Whereas Forest last year (and e.g. Chelsea this season) could have got out of a hole by selling in June. And Villa can have a 13 month year this year and sell after the season finishes rather than in January to balance their books!

Correct as far as I know.

 

[Fenrir_]

That's not my understanding. I believe clubs can choose to harmonise their accounting period to June 30th if they wish but they're not obliged to.

The June 30th is not a deadline as such it's just the point at which one PSR assessment period becomes the next. The December submission deadline for the PL is for the most recent set of company accounts made up to the accounting period that ended before June 30th of that year. Transactions made between the end of the accounting period and June 30th fall into the next years accounts and therefore the next PSR assessment period.

Yeah clubs can harmonise their accounts should they choose to, but PSR assessment runs 1st July to 30th June. Any club in danger of breach will have that first few weeks of the transfer window in June to raise funds to get the right side of it no matter when their own accounting period ends. Villa are the prime example, their accounts end 31st May 24 but they have until 30th June to sell to meet the numbers for PSR 23/24

 

[WW1963]

Never zoned out so many times on any thread like this one.

 

[Superted]

Yeah clubs can harmonise their accounts should they choose to, but PSR assessment runs 1st July to 30th June. Any club in danger of breach will have that first few weeks of the transfer window in June to raise funds to get the right side of it no matter when their own accounting period ends. Villa are the prime example, their accounts end 31st May 24 but they have until 30th June to sell to meet the numbers for PSR 23/24

Villa are running a one-off 13-month accounting period for 23/24 in order to harmonise with the PSR period. They don't do it every year.

If a club is in breach once that year's accounts are made up then to my knowledge there's no opportunity to rectify it.

What if their accounting period ended in February? They wouldn't get 4 months to sort it out before the end of June.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Yeah clubs can harmonise their accounts should they choose to, but PSR assessment runs 1st July to 30th June. Any club in danger of breach will have that first few weeks of the transfer window in June to raise funds to get the right side of it no matter when their own accounting period ends. Villa are the prime example, their accounts end 31st May 24 but they have until 30th June to sell to meet the numbers for PSR 23/24

Villa have extended their accounting period though.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03375789/filing-history/MzQxMjc5MzE4NWFkaXF6a2N4/document?format=pdf&download=0

 

[Bryce]

So did Forest...

Please don’t do that when I am drinking. I just splurged a lager over my dog ffs

 

[Fenrir_]

Villa are running a one-off 13-month accounting period for 23/24 in order to harmonise with the PSR period. They don't do it every year.

If a club is in breach once that year's accounts are made up then to my knowledge there's no opportunity to rectify it.

What if their accounting period ended in February? They wouldn't get 4 months to sort it out before the end of June.

What is a club going to do to raise money between Feb and June? Not like they can sell anyone

Looked into it further, seems they don't actually have their own period as such.
What they do ask is clubs forecasting a loss report in December rather than March. Then when those losses are looked at, the PL looks for some kind of explanation if they're over the limit

Clubs that have reporting periods ending in June have an extra few weeks to balance their (official) books than clubs whose reporting periods end in May - which is in no way fair to be honest. So the PL will ask for interim accounts to see if anything has been done to get the right side of it. Seeing as we sold Neves in June, before pre-season started, we made a big sale quickly

Crux. Neves' sale balanced us out for 22/23 PSR assessment, even though he isn't included in our official accounts for that period. We couldn't possibly have sold him before our reporting period ended because the transfer window was shut but we did sell him shortly after. Issue with someone like Forest is they had an opportunity to sell Brennan Johnson in time and keep their finances in check, but got all haggly for an extra €10m

 

[CelebrityWolf]

What gets me is why did the clubs vote for it ?.

Honestly have no idea. As stupid a thing as we have seen for decades.

 

[Andywolf74]

Honestly have no idea. As stupid a thing as we have seen for decades.

IMO if it helps prevent want happened to the likes of Portsmouth happening again, them I’m all for it. Accepting however, like most things in life, what’s in place is not perfect. For too long too many Premier league clubs were operating on a “throw enough mud at a wall and hope some of it sticks” transfer policy, operating at huge losses in the process, often when the club were relatively successful on the pitch. IMO operating at a loss of £105 million over a 3 year period isn’t sustainable in the medium term and anything more certainly isn’t.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Villa have extended their accounting period though.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03375789/filing-history/MzQxMjc5MzE4NWFkaXF6a2N4/document?format=pdf&download=0

So they have until June? They are really hoping to sell someone before July. SOTV

Who in their right mind will pay above 40m for Ramsey knowing it’s a get out of jail free card for them?

Nobody is going to pay over 80m for Luiz or Watkins either.

Only one I could see leaving is maybe Luiz and I don’t rate him that highly. McGinn makes him look better than what he is from the industrial work power he puts into his game.

Let’s see what happens. Fail this one they are in the mud along with Chelsea. Champions league or not