Everton, surely a points deduction?

[Frank Lincoln]

I wonder how many premier league clubs actually operate within the financial rules?

 

[JadeWolf]

I wonder how many premier league clubs actually operate within the financial rules?

Just us by the sounds of it.

 

[Plovdiv Wolf]

Just us by the sounds of it.

Iv read Newcastle, Chelsea, Man City and Tottenham are face sanction and further investigations

Bournemouth & Man Utd close on FFP and sustainability rules

 

[Leominster_Wolf]

I wonder how many premier league clubs actually operate within the financial rules?

Problem is we genuinely don’t know
All clubs publish their company accounts, but FFP has so many deductibles (stadium, youth &women’s teams, training facilities, player impairment) that the accounts don’t give sufficient detail for anyone to assess.

As I understand it FFP ‘submissions’ are given to the PL (and not published as far as I am aware) which details those deductions and that is where Everton fell foul. They over egged the pudding and inflated the deductions based on some rather ambiguous reasoning.

If you look at Evertons accounts losses they are huge, but FFP losses was only £19.5m above the allowable. They had already deducted a **** pile of losses.

If PL wanted to get its house in order and be transparent- and allay the rumour and supposition - they should publish each clubs FFP submissions.

 

[WW1963]

Problem is we genuinely don’t know
All clubs publish their company accounts, but FFP has so many deductibles (stadium, youth &women’s teams, training facilities, player impairment) that the accounts don’t give sufficient detail for anyone to assess.

As I understand it FFP ‘submissions’ are given to the PL (and not published as far as I am aware) which details those deductions and that is where Everton fell foul. They over egged the pudding and inflated the deductions based on some rather ambiguous reasoning.

If you look at Evertons accounts losses they are huge, but FFP losses was only £19.5m above the allowable. They had already deducted a **** pile of losses.

If PL wanted to get its house in order and be transparent- and allay the rumour and supposition - they should publish each clubs FFP submissions.

I can see it now.

'Freezers went down and we lost £4.5m because the pies went manky'

 

[St. Lukes Reserves]

I can see it now.

'Freezers went down and we lost £4.5m because the pies went manky'

Don't know what they are complaining about, the Welsh FA have just docked Pontypridd Utd 141 points! luckily for them only 6 are immediate with the rest suspended

 

[glorybox]

Just seen they're potentially at risk of administration. They've borrowed 100m off 777 but the sale will not go through until at least January and may not go through at all. They'll probably have to sell players in Jan to cover the shortfall.

Funny part is people on their forum recon DCL is 60-70m player!

If he played all the time maybe. But he only plays about a quarter of the matches so £15m-£17.5m sounds about right.

 

[The Wolf In The North]

If the current rate of points accumulation for Everton and the bottom 3 continued for the rest of the season, Everton could afford to be deducted another 23 points on top of the 10 they've already lost and still not be relegated. That's how poor the situation is.

 

[wolfslair]

If the current rate of points accumulation for Everton and the bottom 3 continued for the rest of the season, Everton could afford to be deducted another 23 points on top of the 10 they've already lost and still not be relegated. That's how poor the situation is.

Yet people are acting like staying up this year is a massive achievement…….

We should be changing that goal to finishing in the top half of the league as the bottom three are so bad that staying up isn’t an achievement really when the survival tally is as low as it is projecting to be.

 

[SmiffyWolf]

is there a defined table anywhere regarding clubs and FFP.

For instance a league table to show where clubs are at in relation to breaching FFP in say a transfer window .

Surely that might help the average person like myself know that Man UTD for instance need to sell before they buy or something similar .

 

[Northampton_wolf]

is there a defined table anywhere regarding clubs and FFP.

For instance a league table to show where clubs are at in relation to breaching FFP in say a transfer window .

Surely that might help the average pe

Someone has tried to do something here

Premier League FFP Table: 2023/24 Club-by-Club Report

Discover the 2023/24 Premier League FFP table to see which clubs have financial problems and restrictions and who can spend more freely.

sqaf.club

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Someone has tried to do something here

Premier League FFP Table: 2023/24 Club-by-Club Report

Discover the 2023/24 Premier League FFP table to see which clubs have financial problems and restrictions and who can spend more freely.

sqaf.club

It's useless though, Everton accounts £520m loss over 3 years, but actually £25m. The opacity of the whole situation is part of the problem.

 

[Northampton_wolf]

It's useless though, Everton accounts £520m loss over 3 years, but actually £25m. The opacity of the whole situation is part of the problem.

Because of the covid write down, its very difficult to understand positions, but you can get a grasp

Unless we have it published by the premier league we are stumped

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Because of the covid write down, its very difficult to understand positions, but you can get a grasp

Unless we have it published by the premier league we are stumped

Yes, more than that though, all the other things that are in the accounts but don't count for FFP.

 

[WolfLing]

Iv read Newcastle, Chelsea, Man City and Tottenham are face sanction and further investigations

Bournemouth & Man Utd close on FFP and sustainability rules

In the future, the should play the league out and allocate the standard points for the team based on their games, then have a big ceremony to reveal the points deductions for each club, and where it puts them in the final table.

Like the Eurovision song contest fan's vote at the end.

It would be equally as entertaining as it is terrible, again like the Eurovision song contest.

 

[glorybox]

If clubs have continued to spend on new players and their wages despite continuing losses they should have the book thrown at them as that has zero to do with Covid related losses

 

[SmiffyWolf]

So from that link then Man UTD , Chelsea and Villa really need to sell players before they can invest surely ?

As Villa's loses are double what ours are on that list . I know it might be rolling time but you get my drift ?

 

[Plovdiv Wolf]

So from that link then Man UTD , Chelsea and Villa really need to sell players before they can invest surely ?

As Villa's loses are double what ours are on that list . I know it might be rolling time but you get my drift ?

Not right now, in 1/2 seasons. No big sales, they face same punishments as Everton

 

[Wolf316]

I can see it now.

'Freezers went down and we lost £4.5m because the pies went manky'

If the price of their pies is anything like ours that’s probably not too far fetched.

 

[Fenrir_]

It's useless though, Everton accounts £520m loss over 3 years, but actually £25m. The opacity of the whole situation is part of the problem.

Probably the most 'accurate' way to judge is it just by looking at the accounts and see the amortisation and wages costs against turnover. It won't be entirely accurate unless you get into the nitty gritty of every account but probably the best guide and even then you could be way off depending on whether the owner is/isn't writing off the losses

Just looking at a couple of Everton reports (they're very fancy!!)

2020
Turnover £186m
Wages £143m
Amortisation £99m

Total -£52m

2021
Turnover £193m
Wages £159m
Amortisation £81m

Total -£47m

2022
Turnover £181m
Wages £141m
Amortisation £68m

Total -£27m

So with £35m a year losses allowed for FFP you can suddenly see why it was tighter than many thought it would be with their huge overall losses. Those numbers give a loss of £126m over the three year period where they were allowed £105m, and they've been reported as being what, £19m over? It worked out more accurate than I thought!!

 

[SmiffyWolf]

Not right now, in 1/2 seasons. No big sales, they face same punishments as Everton

1 or 2 seasons ??? Then not sure how our 150 million stacks up compared to 300 million. As we have had to sell 120/140 million worth of players .

So will be interested to see if villa have to sell upwards of200 million worth or not at least then

 

[Ned]

Everton should be hoping that any further point deductions happen this season too. They will still easily stay up with another 10 points deduction due to the state of the bottom of the table.

 

[oldgoldheart]

rumour of administration for everton....

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

rumour of administration for everton....

If they lose appeal another 3pts docked then admin 9 points would make the battle at the bottom more interesting

 

[WW1963]

So from that link then Man UTD , Chelsea and Villa really need to sell players before they can invest surely ?

As Villa's loses are double what ours are on that list . I know it might be rolling time but you get my drift ?

Villa might sell Douglas Luiz for £100m+ in January if they can't fiddle their way out of it by some other means.

Had no idea he was valued so highly until Villa denied he would be sold.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Villa might sell Douglas Luiz for £100m+ in January if they can't fiddle their way out of it by some other means.

Had no idea he was valued so highly until Villa denied he would be sold.

They won’t get 100m for Luiz - total fantasy maybe 60/70m

 

[JadeWolf]

I see they’ve delayed the move to the new ground until 2025/2026. Wonder if it’s linked to their financial trouble?

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I see they’ve delayed the move to the new ground until 2025/2026. Wonder if it’s linked to their financial trouble?

Maybe, although I think officially the ground is still due to be completed by the end of the calendar year and they've just decided to do the whole season at Goodison rather than moving half way. New ground does look good, but God knows what the access will be like, no nice easy parking in Stanley Park for me!

 

[Bawtry Wolf]

Maybe, although I think officially the ground is still due to be completed by the end of the calendar year and they've just decided to do the whole season at Goodison rather than moving half way. New ground does look good, but God knows what the access will be like, no nice easy parking in Stanley Park for me!

That’s what they’ve said on local news up here in North West. Parking will be a nightmare. That dock road makes their current location salubrious.

 

[WW1963]

Maybe, although I think officially the ground is still due to be completed by the end of the calendar year and they've just decided to do the whole season at Goodison rather than moving half way. New ground does look good, but God knows what the access will be like, no nice easy parking in Stanley Park for me!

Access by canoe.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Access by canoe.

Seriously did wonder about a ferry from the Wirral. Close to the Liverpool landing.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

I see they’ve delayed the move to the new ground until 2025/2026. Wonder if it’s linked to their financial trouble?

Absolutely. They are about to hit administration in the new year

 

[dnf14]

Nottingham Forest could face FFP charge as Everton risk second penalty

Forest have been living by the seat of their pants for a while now and looks like it's coming back around soon.

 

[A wanderer from Bristol]

Nottingham Forest could face FFP charge as Everton risk second penalty

Forest have been living by the seat of their pants for a while now and looks like it's coming back around soon.

Paywall on that article. Don't suppose you could give us the gist?

 

[dnf14]

Paywall on that article. Don't suppose you could give us the gist?

No problem

Premier League clubs will learn in the next two weeks if any will face charges for new breaches of financial rules, with Nottingham Forest seen by experts as being most at risk

Forest are considered to be sailing close to the wind because of their heavy spending while in the Championship and since winning promotion, and there are also concerns that Everton could face a second charge in consecutive seasons of breaching profit and sustainability rules (PSR).

Under a new system brought in by the Premier League for this season, charges for straightforward breaches will be fast-tracked and dealt with by early April, with any points deductions applied to this campaign. Everton were charged last season but had a ten-point penalty imposed in November, which they have appealed against.

The new rules meant all 20 clubs had to submit accounts for 2022-23 by December 31 and any charges will be announced by January 14. A club will have two weeks to respond to a charge and then a hearing by an independent commission must be concluded by April 8. Appeals will have to be completed by the end of the season.

Under the Premier League’s PSR, clubs can make a maximum loss of £105 million over a rolling three-year period, or £35 million a season. If a club has been in the EFL during those three years, the amount of losses allowed are even smaller. Forest would be limited to losses of £61 million: £13 million for the 2020-21 and 2021-22 seasons when they were in Sky Bet Championship, plus £35 million for last season.
Forest made a loss of £45.6 million in 2021-22, when they were promoted, and £15.5 million the season before. In both years, the club spent double the amount on wages that they earned in turnover. Although promotion to the Premier League will have boosted Forest’s income by about £90 million, the club spent heavily on transfers after promotion and their wage bill will have rocketed too.

One legal expert with experience of Financial Fair Play cases told The Times that he expected another club apart from Everton to be charged.

Meanwhile, the football finance author Kieran Maguire believes that Forest have the most to fear. “Nottingham Forest were very much at the limit of their Financial Fair Play allowance when they were promoted to the Premier League and that investment in new players continued in their first season, when they signed players on high wages, including some such as Jesse Lingard who didn’t work out,” he said. “If you are looking for clubs close to the limit they would be at the top in my opinion.”

Forest declined to comment.

There's another bit at the end about Chelsea also being quite close but, long story short, big daddy Saudi came and made their problems go away.

 

[SA Wolf]

No problem

My heart is truly split in two.

 

[Wolf of Salop]

No problem

Wonder if Nuno knew about this before agreeing to join them? Him and his entourage managing Forest must be costing close to Portugal's GDP.

 

[Monketron]

Everton getting punished like they have will have really woken some clubs up.

 

[Starsky]

This season could be a real springboard for us if we are now through this issue whilst others are yet to sort it.

 

[lets all have a disco]

Forest were 190m down on last season transfers....it's pretty obvious they will fail....