The " too lightweight " nonsense

[Mugwump]

Whats with the constant " X player is too lightweight " rubbish i keep seeing from people on here when talking about 18/19/20 year olds in the team? Are some of you lot really so stupid to think players of that age are going to be physically full developed and grown into their bodies? Its not like we are talking about a 25 year old Steve Corica.

I've been on here a long time, and negativity and level of dumb from some on here recently is blowing my mind, especially when you look at how far we have come under Fosun and Nuno. Its getting beyond just constructive criticism. I truly dont get how some people can actually have such little understanding of how a footballer has to develop physically.

Rant over, but probably not for long!

 

[Ian]

You're just putting another spin on the " Patience" theme.
Silva, Vitinha, RAN etc do currently look like they are easily bullied/ knocked off the ball, obviously their bodies will fill out and they will learn how to play in what is widely regarded as a " physical" league, I don't think many are disputing that.

 

[Mugwump]

You're just putting another spin on the " Patience" theme.
Silva, Vitinha, RAN etc do currently look like they are easily bullied/ knocked off the ball, obviously their bodies will fill out and they will learn how to play in what is widely regarded as a " physical" league, I don't think many are disputing that.

Bull****, its not a spin on patience. ( and even if it was, there would be nothing wrong with that when talking about developing young players ) Its common sense ( which has suddenly become not very common around here ) Who cares if the three you mentioned get bullied, they are developing footballers. Whats the point in some people having this absurd pop at them because they aren't ready because they are young developing footballers.

I can think of a club in London who had a similar attitude of pushing out young, developing players like Salah, Lukaku and De Bruyne because they weren't ready and that had some great results for them didnt it. Now i'm not saying our young blokes are on their level either, but my personal opinion is i'm not going to state the obvious and have a pop at them for being " lightweight " at the stage they are at in their careers. Its dumb to even use it as a stick to beat them with. Might as well have a go at every other player on our books for not being as quick as Adama.

 

[reanswolf]

I understand the youngsters being lightweight, but I do think it is potentially becoming a bit of an issue.

Without Boly at the back (who admittedly has been off-form) I would say we are a bit short defensively.
Midfield without Donk is obviously small, Neves, Mouts, Neto, Podence, where it doesn't matter as much. But there seems to be an emphasis on short. Mind you , the best player in the world Messi has no height.

Fabio and Vitinha will not develop much extra pace in my view, though they will bulk up hopefully.

 

[SA Wolf]

Whats with the constant " X player is too lightweight " rubbish i keep seeing from people on here when talking about 18/19/20 year olds in the team? Are some of you lot really so stupid to think players of that age are going to be physically full developed and grown into their bodies? Its not like we are talking about a 25 year old Steve Corica.

I've been on here a long time, and negativity and level of dumb from some on here recently is blowing my mind, especially when you look at how far we have come under Fosun and Nuno. Its getting beyond just constructive criticism. I truly dont get how some people can actually have such little understanding of how a footballer has to develop physically.

Rant over, but probably not for long!

Thanks for the condescending post. Just what's needed!

 

[Big Saft Kid]

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick. I am one who thinks we are 'lightweight' because we could do with having a few more mid-career players in the first team, and fewer up and coming lads of 18 to 20. That's because of a deliberate policy in the club to buy young talent when it is still relatively cheap. But we have been hit by an injury crisis which has taken out Boly, Doncks, Jonny, Marcal, Jimmy, all mature players who are anything but 'lightweight'. The lack of oomph is a result of this crisis and our transfer policy.

 

[Mugwump]

Thanks for the condescending post. Just what's needed!

Probably what a lot deserve.

 

[DPE]

So they are to lightweight is that what you are saying?

 

[Mugwump]

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick. I am one who thinks we are 'lightweight' because we could do with having a few more mid-career players in the first team, and fewer up and coming lads of 18 to 20. That's because of a deliberate policy in the club to buy young talent when it is still relatively cheap. But we have been hit by an injury crisis which has taken out Boly, Doncks, Jonny, Marcal, Jimmy, all mature players who are anything but 'lightweight'. The lack of oomph is a result of this crisis and our transfer policy.

I dont have much of an issue in terms of this " Lightweight " comment if its not aimed at our younger, developing players. I think its extremely unfair and lacks any kind of intelligence in terms of realising younger players are in that development stage.

I agree with what you are talking about. I clearly see the need to have these younger players, and i'm accepting ( as anyone with any sense would ) that they need time. We should have balanced it out more with some more mid-career players as you say. I'm just of the opinion that its silly to have a go at young blokes for being physically not developed. Its not that common you see an 18/19/20 year old player who is capable of competing with grown men physically. There will be exceptions, but we havent got any of those.

 

[Mugwump]

I understand the youngsters being lightweight, but I do think it is potentially becoming a bit of an issue.

Without Boly at the back (who admittedly has been off-form) I would say we are a bit short defensively.
Midfield without Donk is obviously small, Neves, Mouts, Neto, Podence, where it doesn't matter as much. But there seems to be an emphasis on short. Mind you , the best player in the world Messi has no height.

Fabio and Vitinha will not develop much extra pace in my view, though they will bulk up hopefully.

Thats the point though, no point having a pop at them and being overly critical of a young player for that kind of thing. Its kind of stating the obvious and doesnt really take much brain power to do. The criticism should be aimed elsewhere, like how we havent got the balance of the squad right. My post isnt really about the squad as a whole being lightweight as that ( depending on your take on it ) is a different argument. My point is more to do with being critical of young players for having the natural weaknesses a young player will have. I'm finding it quite bemusing how these days we have an element of fans who want everything now and seem to fail to grasp sometimes, we will need to develop players and wont get instant results.

 

[Hot Fuss]

Need a big ****er like that Foden at Man City.

 

[Mutchy]

All sides of arguments welcome here, but make them without insults please - that goes for everyone.

 

[Krispy Kreme]

Neto isnt lightweight and hes 20?

 

[Leamwolf]

I agree about the size needed in a few senior pros in key positions, but let’s not forget two of the most dominant cdm’s of recent times Kante and Macalele (I know I butchered it) were not exactly the biggest in physical stature but my god they kill /killed a team and just boss a defence area teams struggled to get past.

I think we do need one big lad in the midfield, as neves doesn’t win many headers and in the centre backs as back up/heir to boly long term (but can play first team if needed) as sais, yes he wins headers but with him and coady (always my first choice in that pair of options) combined there isn’t a tall guy between them and corners like Saturday and humped Long ball times like Burnley will always carry more threat than they have to.

 

[sc91]

Bull****, its not a spin on patience. ( and even if it was, there would be nothing wrong with that when talking about developing young players ) Its common sense ( which has suddenly become not very common around here ) Who cares if the three you mentioned get bullied, they are developing footballers. Whats the point in some people having this absurd pop at them because they aren't ready because they are young developing footballers.

I can think of a club in London who had a similar attitude of pushing out young, developing players like Salah, Lukaku and De Bruyne because they weren't ready and that had some great results for them didnt it. Now i'm not saying our young blokes are on their level either, but my personal opinion is i'm not going to state the obvious and have a pop at them for being " lightweight " at the stage they are at in their careers. Its dumb to even use it as a stick to beat them with. Might as well have a go at every other player on our books for not being as quick as Adama.

I can also think of that same club winning League Titles, being Champions of Europe and then winning Europe's 2nd tier competition in that same time period. Not saying your wrong but using Chelsea is one hell of a **** choice.

 

[MikeH68]

Might help attitude if the word ‘nonsense’ is taken out of the title and changed to ‘argument’ or ‘discussion‘. When I mentioned players size on another thread, I talked about lack of height being an issue. I used Neves, Mou, Podence and Neto as examples. Another ‘Mixer’ then talked about physicality as well, which also can be valid. Now based on those players ages, 3 out of 4, sorry to say aren’t going to grow much more.
just because people have a different opinion to you doesn’t make it nonsense. The points discussed were reasons for drop off in performance and results:
- Lack of squad size (as detailed by Saturdays bench).
- Negativity of tactics
I mentioned that height may be an issue at free kicks/corners (Raul/Boly/Donk injured) and that with players stated above we lose out in duels in midfield.
Apologies if it’s all nonsense.

 

[SA Wolf]

Might help attitude if the word ‘nonsense’ is taken out of the title and changed to ‘argument’ or ‘discussion‘. When I mentioned players size on another thread, I talked about lack of height being an issue. I used Neves, Mou, Podence and Neto as examples. Another ‘Mixer’ then talked about physicality as well, which also can be valid. Now based on those players ages, 3 out of 4, sorry to say aren’t going to grow much more.
just because people have a different opinion to you doesn’t make it nonsense. The points discussed were reasons for drop off in performance and results:
- Lack of squad size (as detailed by Saturdays bench).
- Negativity of tactics
I mentioned that height may be an issue at free kicks/corners (Raul/Boly/Donk injured) and that with players stated above we lose out in duels in midfield.
Apologies if it’s all nonsense.

Not all nonsense and your opinions are as valid as those who feel the need to insult other posters from their perceived positions of superiority.

 

[Superted]

We're in a bit of a perfect storm though aren't we?

Yes we pursued a policy of buying in young talent to develop as part of the first team which, on paper, is a good idea I think most would agree.

Problem is we have 5 experienced first teamers out with injury or otherwise. I don't care who you are, outside of the biggest 4/5 teams in the league nobody will be able to cope very successfully with that without a serious slice of good luck which we don't seem to be getting at the moment (I thought we'd got some the other day with the Burn own goal which the universe saw fit to even out straight away with an own goal off Saiss' face).

You could argue we should have had more experienced players in as back up but how far do you go? How many players out do you need to legislate for without inflating the wage bill to an unsustainable level?

There's a balance to be struck and you can guarantee if we'd have added more players to the squad then we'd have sailed through the season with no injuries again and ended up with a load of disgruntled players who got very little game time.

 

[Mugwump]

Might help attitude if the word ‘nonsense’ is taken out of the title and changed to ‘argument’ or ‘discussion‘. When I mentioned players size on another thread, I talked about lack of height being an issue. I used Neves, Mou, Podence and Neto as examples. Another ‘Mixer’ then talked about physicality as well, which also can be valid. Now based on those players ages, 3 out of 4, sorry to say aren’t going to grow much more.
just because people have a different opinion to you doesn’t make it nonsense. The points discussed were reasons for drop off in performance and results:
- Lack of squad size (as detailed by Saturdays bench).
- Negativity of tactics
I mentioned that height may be an issue at free kicks/corners (Raul/Boly/Donk injured) and that with players stated above we lose out in duels in midfield.
Apologies if it’s all nonsense.

No it wouldnt, because its nonsense. I'm talking about players who are in the 18/19/20 years old range ( which i specifically mentioned ) Other people then decided to ignore that to suit their particular agenda. I've been clearly talking about people having a go at developing players and their lack of understanding towards that side of their development. Thats totally different from somebody like Neves or Podence, or totally different from a more experienced player who may not be tall, or physically strong, or fast. Thats a totally different situation all together because we are then talking about players who have grown into their bodies. My OP, if people actually read it was never about is the squad lightweight as like i said, thats a different argument.

What you are talking about is another debate altogether.

 

[Mugwump]

Not all nonsense and your opinions are as valid as those who feel the need to insult other posters from their perceived positions of superiority.

But i am superior. Its not percieved.

 

[reanswolf]

I must admit that even without Boly we defend set pieces and corners relatively well, but I'd lie if I said I felt comfortable on corners v Brighton, I was ****ting myself each time.

We all realise fabio and Vitinha need time to evolve, they shouldn't be thrust into the cut-throat first team until they are ready, and frankly they are not. That's clearly not their fault, but its a combination of injury situation and transfer policy as to why they are. I don't think anyone has blamed them per se. But people are understandably frustrated right now.

I can see that Vitinha has potential from his Manure performance, though he disappointingly just literally disappeared in the Brighton game, perhaps to be expected. Fabio, personally I just don't see it at thsipoint - I don't see flair, skill, heading ability, pace, tho touch is ok, but totally get that he needs to evolve in the Under-23s. He is not ready now, it is like men against boys.

But that is not a criticism of the young lads themselves.

 

[Mugwump]

I must admit that even without Boly we defend set pieces and corners relatively well, but I'd lie if I said I felt comfortable on corners v Brighton, I was ****ting myself each time.

We all realise fabio and Vitinha need time to evolve, they shouldn't be thrust into the cut-throat first team until they are ready, and frankly they are not. That's clearly not their fault, but its a combination of injury situation and transfer policy as to why they are. I don't think anyone has blamed them per se. But people are understandably frustrated right now.

I can see that Vitinha has potential from his Manure performance, though he disappointingly just literally disappeared in the Brighton game, perhaps to be expected. Fabio, personally I just don't see it at thsipoint - I don't see flair, skill, heading ability, pace, tho touch is ok, but totally get that he needs to evolve in the Under-23s. He is not ready now, it is like men against boys.

But that is not a criticism of the young lads themselves.

I dont think some people can see they need time to evolve. Thats my whole point. Some might fail, some might be massive wastes of money, but they are getting criticised as the finished article by some on here imo when they clearly arent.

 

[Leamwolf]

We're in a bit of a perfect storm though aren't we?

Yes we pursued a policy of buying in young talent to develop as part of the first team which, on paper, is a good idea I think most would agree.

Problem is we have 5 experienced first teamers out with injury or otherwise. I don't care who you are, outside of the biggest 4/5 teams in the league nobody will be able to cope very successfully with that without a serious slice of good luck which we don't seem to be getting at the moment (I thought we'd got some the other day with the Burn own goal which the universe saw fit to even out straight away with an own goal off Saiss' face).

You could argue we should have had more experienced players in as back up but how far do you go? How many players out do you need to legislate for without inflating the wage bill to an unsustainable level?

There's a balance to be struck and you can guarantee if we'd have added more players to the squad then we'd have sailed through the season with no injuries again and ended up with a load of disgruntled players who got very little game time.

I think 3 - 4 more wouldn’t have been a bad number with the physical demands on the players for this season compared to any other.

1 more tall/first team SPECIALIST centre back as coady has only been a CB for 4 seasons and sais probably not much longer. That would have given us a direct Willy boly replacement. They both lack height meaning corners, crossed FK’s and long balls to the box are more dangerous than they need to be. Also sais more than coady worries me positionaly and I question would a natural CB specialist have been caught out fir the first goal as badly as sais was and offered better defence on the Burnley goal, no blame on sais for that one it was unlucky but Arial threat and height did us there.

1 tall/powerful first team ready cm - would have made a great point of difference to neves, moutinho and Vitinha. Yes we have dendonker, but OO isn’t ready to lead that role yet, but he will be (he is my favourite of all the young guns we have).

1 physical striker - taking the Jimenez injury away, it would give us a plan B even when Raul is fit and the chance to play two specialist strikers rather than shoe horning adama or podence into that role.

1 winger- just to have an extra option as with podence out we now only have two. An impact injury to Neto and Traore and we are in trouble.....

 

[Deleted member 9202LYK]

Whats with the constant " X player is too lightweight " rubbish i keep seeing from people on here when talking about 18/19/20 year olds in the team? Are some of you lot really so stupid to think players of that age are going to be physically full developed and grown into their bodies? Its not like we are talking about a 25 year old Steve Corica.

I've been on here a long time, and negativity and level of dumb from some on here recently is blowing my mind, especially when you look at how far we have come under Fosun and Nuno. Its getting beyond just constructive criticism. I truly dont get how some people can actually have such little understanding of how a footballer has to develop physically.

Rant over, but probably not for long!

People are bored due to tier 4 or whatever- especially the younger ones. Most want to be out at an illegal rave and due to lockdown they are only able to get to two or three a week.

that leaves a lot of time to fill. Posting things like ‘Vitinha showed a few nice touches’ doesn’t provoke much of a reaction.

Incessant criticism of the likes of Silva for being lightweight and slow is the internet equivalent of saying ‘look at me, look at me’.

When nothing else is happening in the world people have to invent their own drama.

 

[BarryM]

Anyone else confused at the actual point of the thread?!

Posters have commented that we have players that are lightweight and knocked off the ball easily ... Which is true. Just because they are 18/19/20 has nothing to do with the truth behind this.

Thread starter has had a hissy fit because people have made these observations.

 

[reanswolf]

I think 3 - 4 more wouldn’t have been a bad number with the physical demands on the players for this season compared to any other.

1 more tall/first team SPECIALIST centre back as coady has only been a CB for 4 seasons and sais probably not much longer. That would have given us a direct Willy boly replacement. They both lack height meaning corners, crossed FK’s and long balls to the box are more dangerous than they need to be. Also sais more than coady worries me positionaly and I question would a natural CB specialist have been caught out fir the first goal as badly as sais was and offered better defence on the Burnley goal, no blame on sais for that one it was unlucky but Arial threat and height did us there.

1 tall/powerful first team ready cm - would have made a great point of difference to neves, moutinho and Vitinha. Yes we have dendonker, but OO isn’t ready to lead that role yet, but he will be (he is my favourite of all the young guns we have).

1 physical striker - taking the Jimenez injury away, it would give us a plan B even when Raul is fit and the chance to play two specialist strikers rather than shoe horning adama or podence into that role.

1 winger- just to have an extra option as with podence out we now only have two. An impact injury to Neto and Traore and we are in trouble.....

Personally, I think if we had got Paulhinha (CM) and Rondon (CF) and we would have been absolutely fine.
Not my money of course, but £12m for Paulhinha and way less for Rondon.

 

[MikeH68]

No it wouldnt, because its nonsense. I'm talking about players who are in the 18/19/20 years old range ( which i specifically mentioned ) Other people then decided to ignore that to suit their particular agenda. I've been clearly talking about people having a go at developing players and their lack of understanding towards that side of their development. Thats totally different from somebody like Neves or Podence, or totally different from a more experienced player who may not be tall, or physically strong, or fast. Thats a totally different situation all together because we are then talking about players who have grown into their bodies. My OP, if people actually read it was never about is the squad lightweight as like i said, thats a different argument.

What you are talking about is another debate altogether.

Yes oh Lord & Master of appropriate debate (Mr Superior) your thread is littered with ‘Nonsense’ ‘Stupid’ comments. Difficult to see the wood for the trees (or is it the other way round, I can never remember!) with all the negative comments about other people’s comments.

 

[Arky_R]

But i am superior. Its not percieved.

Hope this is a joke otherwise you sir are a tool

 

[Fenrir_]

Neto isnt lightweight and hes 20?

He was when he joined, but a year of training and being involved in the senior game and look what's happened to him, anything but a lightweight player now

 

[Ewok vs Wolf]

Do opposing teams believe they can bully us?
The answer has to be yes. Some do it better than others.
This season we've been without Boly Donk Raul all physically good in both boxes. Don't forget how many Raul would clear at near post corners.
Yes the young players are developing, it's also worth remembering the likes of Vitinha and Silva hardly played or no senior top level football before they got here and are trying to do it in the tough test league in the world, of course for a time they will get pushed off the ball til they get more experience and grow stronger
Look at how Netos developed that side of his game over the past year

 

[Fenrir_]

Personally, I think if we had got Paulhinha (CM) and Rondon (CF) and we would have been absolutely fine.
Not my money of course, but £12m for Paulhinha and way less for Rondon.

Don't think Rondon was an option while he was picking up a quarter of a million pounds a week in China, with their new salary cap though and Raúl's injury he's one I'd be happy with - but I can see us going for someone who can also play wide (Origi/King)

 

[Mugwump]

Hope this is a joke otherwise you sir are a tool

I'm deadly serious. Like always.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Neto isnt lightweight and hes 20?

He was when he first came

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Anyone else confused at the actual point of the thread?!

Posters have commented that we have players that are lightweight and knocked off the ball easily ... Which is true. Just because they are 18/19/20 has nothing to do with the truth behind this.

Thread starter has had a hissy fit because people have made these observations.

I'd say there lack of physicality is exactly down to their age and experience

 

[Mugwump]

Yes oh Lord & Master of appropriate debate (Mr Superior) your thread is littered with ‘Nonsense’ ‘Stupid’ comments. Difficult to see the wood for the trees (or is it the other way round, I can never remember!) with all the negative comments about other people’s comments.

Lets look at the facts. I made a thread about the younger players, you start bringing up Neves, Podence, a lock of size in the squad because we are missing Raul, Boly and Dendoncker. None of which has anything to do with the over the top criticism of the likes of RAN and Silva. So yep its nonsense and stupid.

 

[Mugwump]

Anyone else confused at the actual point of the thread?!

Posters have commented that we have players that are lightweight and knocked off the ball easily ... Which is true. Just because they are 18/19/20 has nothing to do with the truth behind this.

Thread starter has had a hissy fit because people have made these observations.

I'll repeat it one last time even though its not that hard to understand. I'm sick of critisism of young players for being a bit lightweight who arent the finished article. It makes no sense to me just like it would be nonsensical of me to critisice Coady because he isnt as quick as Neto or Adama. If you feel they have no ability to work with, thats different, but to start criticising players who havent yet fully developed physically and use it as another negative stick to beat us with at the moment just makes no sense to me.

 

[Fenrir_]

Anyone else confused at the actual point of the thread?!

Posters have commented that we have players that are lightweight and knocked off the ball easily ... Which is true. Just because they are 18/19/20 has nothing to do with the truth behind this.

Thread starter has had a hissy fit because people have made these observations.

The fact they're 18/19/20 has everything to do with it, they'll get pushed off the ball less as they develop further

It's hardly an observation to state the (what should be to everyone) bleeding obvious

 

[Leamwolf]

I think the young bloods in the squad will be ok, Vitinha for example has shown in the Portugal under 21 games with people of similar physical development to him he looks a tidy and exciting player.

we just needed a couple more senior ready players.

 

[Leamwolf]

Personally, I think if we had got Paulhinha (CM) and Rondon (CF) and we would have been absolutely fine.
Not my money of course, but £12m for Paulhinha and way less for Rondon.

I can get on board with that, i really like the look of Paulinha from the games against us last season.

does anyone know if Rondon would get a work permit under the new criteria? If he does he would be a great addition and give Silva another good striker to learn from.

 

[Contrarian]

The fact they're 18/19/20 has everything to do with it, they'll get pushed off the ball less as they develop further

It's hardly an observation to state the (what should be to everyone) bleeding obvious

I used the term "physicality" as a broad term to cover something I noticed in recent matches. Commentators have mentioned it too. Winning hardly anything from corners. Being beaten by set pieces and corners in our own box. Second to the stray balls. Not winning the 50/50's. Easily dispossed all over the pitch. This is not aimed specifically at the youngsters. Not just height, the whole thing.

Against Spurs, for example, we got a *lot* of corners. And didn't get near any of them. Until the one at the end Saiss did the run to the near post and delivered to perfectly to score. Intelligent play presumably they'd realised they weren't winning the "free for all" so tried a different approach.

This is not aimed specifically at the youngsters. Though they will have to learn ways of dealing with it. Same as a defender who lacks pace. They learn how to cope with faster players...or they drop down the levels. It's throughout the team. Maybe it's that we had a run of matches against teams with greater physicality - Burnley, definitely, they are strong aerially and they know how to use it. However, I wonder if it's more to do with losing Boly, Dendonker and Raul who are the ones who win exactly those kind of challenges I believe we seem to losing recently.

I don't think the problem is the supporters who are not considering the youth and inexperience of our players. It's those bullying meanies on the other teams we keep playing! If only they would have the polite attitude and realise that our players are not fully developed yet, so they should not tackle so hard, jump so high etc

Opponents won't go easy on us because of our injury problems, either. One win in our last 7 matches. Literally relegation form in our last 10 matches. From a team that finished 7th twice. Of course this is mainly down to "Injury Problems". But the league table doesn't give you bonus points for injuries. My viewpoint is that it's a squad depth problem, not pointing the fingers at any of the players individually... in some positions we have little choice but to play whoever is standing, it seems.

Just seems easier to say "I think we've looked a bit lightweight recently" rather than type that lot out with referenced examples and heat maps every time.