Welcome Notice

Hello and welcome to Molineux Mix a forum for Wolves fans by Wolves fans.

Register Log in

The Scapegoat XI

goldfish

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
3,499
Reaction score
3,176
The transformation of the Nunes thread into the Hwang thread got me thinking about scapegoats through the years. Had a go at a Scapegoat XI below. I've gone with our current 4-2-3-1 formation, partly cos the players seemed to fit.

I'm understanding scapegoat to refer to someone whose negative impact on the team is exaggerated. I'm sticking to players I've seen, so 1998 onwards.

GK: Oakes
Tricky one this: most of the keepers who've had real stick in my time (Postma, Hennessey, Jones) really were holding us back. Stowell was increasingly vilified before he was replaced by Oakes, but that didn't last too long. Oakes got constant stick for poor kicking and poor command of his area (fair), but his shot stopping was under-rated until he had that purple patch in the Prem, just before being dropped for Jones.

DL: Naylor
The easiest pick in the team. Local boy done good in problem position, England U21 international, linked with Liverpool, scorer of occasional wondergoals. And yet constantly vilified by our fans for what he couldn't do rather than what he could, especially in our first Prem season. He did have an unfortunate knack of switching off on occasion (Bolton away), but his failings were never as catastrophic for the team as people suggested (Irwin made a number of awful blunders in our Prem season but got very little stick).

CB: Neill Collins
If nothing else, he won me a load of cash cos he was always huge odds to be the first scorer despite averaging a goal every ten games for us. Limited defensively, but never as bad as lots made out.

CB: Richard Stearman
The proto John Stones wasn't the world's greatest, but got disproportionate flack. Probably because people felt him too pretty to be a Proper English Centre Half.

DR: Matt Doherty
Doherty is certainly limited, and can only play in certain systems. But the system we played under Nuno for the first three seasons was perfect for him. When Nuno wanted to change Doherty was exposed. He can't beat a man, he's a dodgy passer and he's not blessed with loads of pace. But his (very real) attributes were overlooked in all of that. Ironically I could also have put his replacement, Semedo, in here, as it was fashionable to pin our defensive woes on him when he first arrived.

CM: Simon Osborn
The crab, as he was nicknamed. Yeah, he slowed us down, but if we had mobile attackers ahead of him he could be really effective.

CM: Seyi Olofinjana
Suffered from the expectation that all tall sub-Saharan African midfielders should play like Viera, and constantly called a 'fairy' because he didn't. A rare box-to-box midfielder in a Wolves shirt and very, very good on his day (but very inconsistent!).

ACM: Seol Ki-Hyeon
Had a real purple patch when he first signed, then tailed off - largely cos he was stuck on the wing by Hoddle when he was clearly more effective as a narrow wide forward, or playing a sort of roving number 10 role. Grew to be really disliked as our football under Hoddle was dour, and was held up as the epitome of all wrong with us.

Wide forward: Carl Cort
"But he's a striker!", I hear you cry. Exactly. So why was he constantly vilified for being lazy when Hoddle stuck him out wide? (I could give you one reason.) A genuinely good goalscorer when played in the correct position. When played wide he was a symptom of a dysfunctional team and not the cause.

Striker: Andy Keogh
A player ahead of his time, maybe? Brilliant as a second striker, but never clinical enough to be the main man. Often unfairly lambasted.

Wide forward: Michael Gilkes
He was absolutely loathed, wasn't he? The cheers when he inevitably got subbed-off for Paul Simpson were deafening. He can't have been that bad, surely?

Bench: Stowell, Semedo, Ward, Berra, Andrews, Hwang, Doyle
 

Kennedy

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2017
Messages
683
Reaction score
1,393
Some good shouts there. Managed by Jez Moxey..

I would throw Karl Henry in with Donk and put Sellers and Thelwell on the coaching staff.
 

goldfish

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
3,499
Reaction score
3,176
Isn't a scapegoat blameless ?
In the literal sense probably. But I'm sort of going with 'blamed for things that weren't their fault', even if they were limited. Often I think scapegoats embody certain aspects of the whole that people dislike. e.g. Doherty: slow.
 

Jack Russell

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Nov 30, 2016
Messages
8,812
Reaction score
20,646
Back before your time we had a fantastic midfielder called Mike Bailey. He was the epitome of the perfect midfielder. However there was an element of fans at Wolves that chose to belittle him. Since then I have accepted that we will always have an element of fans that are totally clueless and would have great difficulty in telling the difference between a football and a banana. Totally thick and stupid they may be but, sadly, we will always be lumbered with them!
 

berwickwolf

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
4,171
Reaction score
5,685
How is saying Hwang is not good enough making him a scapegoat?
There are some right patronising people on here, calling wolves fans morons etc. Back in the day you had some sing Loyal supporters to demonstrate self perceived superiority.
Now I've always tried to support each wolves player and coach. I couldn't hide my contempt for Saunders, however. With Hwang, I genuinely don't see what he has to offer, and I think he's a liability. He was truly dreadful in most of the games I saw last season. He wasn't a scapegoat: lage was responsible for the performances. But to watch him ahead of Fabio was hard to believe.
Anyway, if he improves, great. It was noticeable though that in that Spires YouTube on Nunes, Hwang as an option wasn't even discussed.
And to all those that think he's good despite the evidence, why not say we don't need Ramos cos we have Hwang playing through the middle.
If he comes good, then fair play. But these posts having a go at fellow fans are crap to be honest.
Edit: I don't remember some of the same people supporting Fabio when he got genuine and concerted grief on here, with only a small minority of us defending him. The crap some of you gave him was horrendous.
 
Last edited:

Padraig

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
4,022
Reaction score
4,401
Who’s the manager?

Jez Moxey as CEO
 

Bawtry Wolf

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jul 13, 2006
Messages
3,515
Reaction score
6,926
Jody Craddock - in his early days and consequently had a song about him. He used to be…
Anyone who wasn’t bully for a number of years. Akinbiyi for example, although he was more laughed at for his comical chasing of lost causes which remained lost but then ignoring balls played with 5 yards of him.
Neil Emblem got a bit of stick as well but not as much as Ferguson (only played when contract was due for renewal) and Corica.
 

jrpb-3

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
14,172
Reaction score
7,273
Graham Taylor in contention for manager too maybe
 

SingYourHeartsOut

"Its less confusing with a smaller brain"
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
38,100
Reaction score
36,793
Robbie Dennison (who I always loved) used to get a lot of stick. Saw people come to blows over him a couple of times.

Stowell did used to divide opinion, Jones was always favoured by people who wanted a keeper to command his box, not unlike Rui and Sa, except Sa can usually save a low shot.

Berra was constantly criticised for the numerous penalties people thought he would (but never actually did) give away.

Karl Henry was the crab who held back the midfield under Mick. Now he'd just be called a CDM and everyone would understand he wasn't supposed to pass forwards.
 

WolfInSheep'sClothing

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
12,909
Reaction score
15,178
The transformation of the Nunes thread into the Hwang thread got me thinking about scapegoats through the years. Had a go at a Scapegoat XI below. I've gone with our current 4-2-3-1 formation, partly cos the players seemed to fit.

I'm understanding scapegoat to refer to someone whose negative impact on the team is exaggerated. I'm sticking to players I've seen, so 1998 onwards.

GK: Oakes
Tricky one this: most of the keepers who've had real stick in my time (Postma, Hennessey, Jones) really were holding us back. Stowell was increasingly vilified before he was replaced by Oakes, but that didn't last too long. Oakes got constant stick for poor kicking and poor command of his area (fair), but his shot stopping was under-rated until he had that purple patch in the Prem, just before being dropped for Jones.

DL: Naylor
The easiest pick in the team. Local boy done good in problem position, England U21 international, linked with Liverpool, scorer of occasional wondergoals. And yet constantly vilified by our fans for what he couldn't do rather than what he could, especially in our first Prem season. He did have an unfortunate knack of switching off on occasion (Bolton away), but his failings were never as catastrophic for the team as people suggested (Irwin made a number of awful blunders in our Prem season but got very little stick).

CB: Neill Collins
If nothing else, he won me a load of cash cos he was always huge odds to be the first scorer despite averaging a goal every ten games for us. Limited defensively, but never as bad as lots made out.

CB: Richard Stearman
The proto John Stones wasn't the world's greatest, but got disproportionate flack. Probably because people felt him too pretty to be a Proper English Centre Half.

DR: Matt Doherty
Doherty is certainly limited, and can only play in certain systems. But the system we played under Nuno for the first three seasons was perfect for him. When Nuno wanted to change Doherty was exposed. He can't beat a man, he's a dodgy passer and he's not blessed with loads of pace. But his (very real) attributes were overlooked in all of that. Ironically I could also have put his replacement, Semedo, in here, as it was fashionable to pin our defensive woes on him when he first arrived.

CM: Simon Osborn
The crab, as he was nicknamed. Yeah, he slowed us down, but if we had mobile attackers ahead of him he could be really effective.

CM: Seyi Olofinjana
Suffered from the expectation that all tall sub-Saharan African midfielders should play like Viera, and constantly called a 'fairy' because he didn't. A rare box-to-box midfielder in a Wolves shirt and very, very good on his day (but very inconsistent!).

ACM: Seol Ki-Hyeon
Had a real purple patch when he first signed, then tailed off - largely cos he was stuck on the wing by Hoddle when he was clearly more effective as a narrow wide forward, or playing a sort of roving number 10 role. Grew to be really disliked as our football under Hoddle was dour, and was held up as the epitome of all wrong with us.

Wide forward: Carl Cort
"But he's a striker!", I hear you cry. Exactly. So why was he constantly vilified for being lazy when Hoddle stuck him out wide? (I could give you one reason.) A genuinely good goalscorer when played in the correct position. When played wide he was a symptom of a dysfunctional team and not the cause.

Striker: Andy Keogh
A player ahead of his time, maybe? Brilliant as a second striker, but never clinical enough to be the main man. Often unfairly lambasted.

Wide forward: Michael Gilkes
He was absolutely loathed, wasn't he? The cheers when he inevitably got subbed-off for Paul Simpson were deafening. He can't have been that bad, surely?

Bench: Stowell, Semedo, Ward, Berra, Andrews, Hwang, Doyle
No mention of Adama?
 

Alex Rae The Substitute

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
May 14, 2012
Messages
7,478
Reaction score
9,173
How did I forget him!? Did wonder about putting Dendoncker in, but don't think the criticism is that disproportionate yet.

He was walking out the ground on Saturday up by the players car park and some knuckle dragger type Wolves fans were giving him some abuse.

Our fans are so odd, he’d just had another very good game and one shouts “enjoy being back on the bench next week”.

The mind boggles what goes through their heads.
 

Zico

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
May 8, 2012
Messages
2,541
Reaction score
5,430
How is saying Hwang is not good enough making him a scapegoat?
There are some right patronising people on here, calling wolves fans morons etc. Back in the day you had some sing Loyal supporters to demonstrate self perceived superiority.
Now I've always tried to support each wolves player and coach. I couldn't hide my contempt for Saunders, however. With Hwang, I genuinely don't see what he has to offer, and I think he's a liability. He was truly dreadful in most of the games I saw last season. He wasn't a scapegoat: lage was responsible for the performances. But to watch him ahead of Fabio was hard to believe.
Anyway, if he improves, great. It was noticeable though that in that Spires YouTube on Nunes, Hwang as an option wasn't even discussed.
And to all those that think he's good despite the evidence, why not say we don't need Ramos cos we have Hwang playing through the middle.
If he comes good, then fair play. But these posts having a go at fellow fans are crap to be honest.
Edit: I don't remember some of the same people supporting Fabio when he got genuine and concerted grief on here, with only a small minority of us defending him. The crap some of you gave him was horrendous.
There are people who say far more about Hwang than "not good enough". "Worst player to ever play at this level" is an example.
 

goldfish

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
3,499
Reaction score
3,176
He was walking out the ground on Saturday up by the players car park and some knuckle dragger type Wolves fans were giving him some abuse.

Our fans are so odd, he’d just had another very good game and one shouts “enjoy being back on the bench next week”.

The mind boggles what goes through their heads.
That's ridiculous. The poor fella! Unjustified even if he was as bad as some people think. I don't think being abused is quite the same as being a scapegoat, though. Dendoncker isn't held up consistently as the one thing holding us back.
 

goldfish

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
3,499
Reaction score
3,176
Steven Ward
Steve Corica
I put Ward on the bench. I think Naylor really sticks in my mind because I began supporting Wolves as he broke through and as a local player I really identified with him, so the abuse he got hurt me too somehow! I also think Naylor got ridiculous flack in comparison with Irwin, who was consistently poor in the Prem but whose reputation shielded him. But yeah, Ward copped a load too. From RoI fans too.
 

goldfish

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
3,499
Reaction score
3,176
There are people who say far more about Hwang than "not good enough". "Worst player to ever play at this level" is an example.
That's unjustified criticism, but it's not necessarily scapegoating (that happens when Hwang is held up as *the problem* holding us back, which certainly also happens).
 

Frank Lincoln

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Aug 8, 2012
Messages
25,114
Reaction score
35,008
John Holsgrove would have to be in the team. It seemed every time we conceded a goal he got the blame.
 

Axle

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Jan 3, 2018
Messages
2,652
Reaction score
3,508
Stowell, no. Great keeper and servant.

Keogh. He was a bit like Beardsley, never really seen as the attacker who would score goals, but was so key to how we played. It says something that Billy Sharp is still doing it (and gelled so well with MGW). If we had signed both of them, who knows where we would be?

Also Wolves fans have a bit of previous with this scapegoating and it's not an endearing trait. The booing of Bull was one of the lowest points I've ever witnessed as a Wolves fan.
 

goldfish

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
3,499
Reaction score
3,176
Stowell, no. Great keeper and servant.

Also Wolves fans have a bit of previous with this scapegoating and it's not an endearing trait. The booing of Bull was one of the lowest points I've ever witnessed as a Wolves fan.

My memory might be playing tricks on me, but as soon as Oakes was signed I remember people clamoring for Stowell to be dropped and saying he was past his best/holding us back, perhaps because Oakes was quite a glamorous signing. Stowell's performances might have dropped off a bit but this was clearly nonsense - especially as we went 10 games unbeaten! (The 11th was a defeat to Ipswich in which Stowell got caught out of position by a Scowcroft header: he was dropped for the next game.) This was probably very short-lived scapegoating, but it really stuck with me. And the Bully example you give shows that even great players/club servants can be targeted! Being a scapegoat doesn't necessarily mean being bad.
 

Ned

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Messages
7,657
Reaction score
16,408
Off the top of my head:

Paul Jones
Karl Henry
Donk
Semedo
Doc
Naylor
 

Adrian_Monk

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Apr 17, 2006
Messages
16,516
Reaction score
13,307
How is saying Hwang is not good enough making him a scapegoat?
There are some right patronising people on here, calling wolves fans morons etc. Back in the day you had some sing Loyal supporters to demonstrate self perceived superiority.
Now I've always tried to support each wolves player and coach. I couldn't hide my contempt for Saunders, however. With Hwang, I genuinely don't see what he has to offer, and I think he's a liability. He was truly dreadful in most of the games I saw last season. He wasn't a scapegoat: lage was responsible for the performances. But to watch him ahead of Fabio was hard to believe.
Anyway, if he improves, great. It was noticeable though that in that Spires YouTube on Nunes, Hwang as an option wasn't even discussed.
And to all those that think he's good despite the evidence, why not say we don't need Ramos cos we have Hwang playing through the middle.
If he comes good, then fair play. But these posts having a go at fellow fans are crap to be honest.
Edit: I don't remember some of the same people supporting Fabio when he got genuine and concerted grief on here, with only a small minority of us defending him. The crap some of you gave him was horrendous.
We hear the term scapegoat banded around all the time, mostly as a lazy defence mechanism towards posters who call out crap players playing crap. Dendoncker, for example, is often described as a scapegoat even when those criticising him are roundly criticising the whole team, and Dendoncker has played rubbish. I've been accused of scapegoating him a few times but was effusive in my praise of him in the last game.
 

goldfish

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
3,499
Reaction score
3,176
Off the top of my head:

Paul Jones
Karl Henry
Donk
Semedo
Doc
Naylor

Henry's a good shout. Wasn't he blamed for supposed off-pitch trouble as well as our poor form?

I'm not sure on Paul Jones was a scapegoat though, because 1) he was genuinely awful for us; 2) very few people blamed him for the team's woes as a whole - they just pointed out how bad he was. He was maybe especially harshly judged because Dave Jones dropped Oakes after heroic performances in consecutive games against Man Utd (1-0 win) and Liverpool (1-1 draw), and then after a debut clean sheet Paul Jones conceded 7 in 2 including a couple of howlers (against Leeds?).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ned

Alex Rae The Substitute

Just doesn't shut up
Joined
May 14, 2012
Messages
7,478
Reaction score
9,173
That's ridiculous. The poor fella! Unjustified even if he was as bad as some people think. I don't think being abused is quite the same as being a scapegoat, though. Dendoncker isn't held up consistently as the one thing holding us back.

He sort of smiled/ laughed at them. But his reaction suggested he was kind of used to/ expecting it. Which is completely unfair.

Personally I don’t think he’s been the most exciting signing of the Fosun era, but I’d say he rarely gives below a 6/10 wherever he is ok the pitch, and time to time pops up with some very valuable goals/ match defining moments.

Certainly not deserving of being shouted at as he walked to his car with his young partner.
 
Back
Top Bottom