The Drop List - Overhaul Needed

[Leamwolf]

It's very generous to refer to most of the comments in here as "interpreting a set of data".

It's all basically, "we lost, so I'm in a stinking mood, so I'm going to criticise every player".

Neves has been a key man while we finished 7th twice, and yet all of a sudden, if we don't offload him in the summer, we're going to be relegated by January, apparently.

I think it's a good thing the fans haven't been in this year - it means our players haven't had to endure some of the "support" our fans would have given them during bad results.

The data people interpret is clearly; league points, goals scored, goals conceded, xg in games, % in territory zones, goals conceded/scored in first halves, times we concede first goals. We all view it on our own way and base an opinion on it that people then share on here. You see it one way another person sees it another, doesn’t make your option more valid than theirs or vice versa.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

Part of that is due to a lack of options tho.

Who can he pass it to? An immobile Jose or static traore . Alternatively go backwards .

**** all options in the area of pitch that matters

He wasn't exactly an option for the other two though, was he?
Our front three were poor. He had the most space and he didn't use it. When he took it on he didn't beat players and for me was our poorest player offensively again.
I don't think he's fully fit, because he doesn't look as quick as I remember him being, and he doesn't look like he's got the beating of anyone at the moment.
And defensively, he does nowt.

 

[Flump]

The data people interpret is clearly; league points, goals scored, goals conceded, xg in games, % in territory zones, goals conceded/scored in first halves, times we concede first goals. We all view it on our own way and base an opinion on it that people then share on here. You see it one way another person sees it another, doesn’t make your option more valid than theirs or vice versa.

Weird, I haven't seen many people mentioning that based on xG, we would only expect to have conceded 2 goals yesterday, so we were unlucky that Burnley's finishing was unexpectedly good.

I think it's clear that a lot of people here are talking based on their emotional reaction, that's why there's so many comments along the lines of "that was embarrassing so there need to be repercussions", rather than "with a couple of quality additions, we could be back to where we want to be next season".

West Ham were what, 16th or 17th last season, added a couple of high quality players, got on a roll, and are right up there now. And yet if you read this thread we need to offload about 10 first team players, and the manager, otherwise we're certain to be relegated.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

It's very generous to refer to most of the comments in here as "interpreting a set of data".

It's all basically, "we lost, so I'm in a stinking mood, so I'm going to criticise every player".

Neves has been a key man while we finished 7th twice, and yet all of a sudden, if we don't offload him in the summer, we're going to be relegated by January, apparently.

I think it's a good thing the fans haven't been in this year - it means our players haven't had to endure some of the "support" our fans would have given them during bad results.

Our midfield wasn't where we lost the game yesterday. We dominated possesion, although being awful and slow paced with it.
Boly wins a couple of headers early on and it's a different game. As it is, it started a rot throughout the team. Pub league defending.

 

[Deleted member 11332]

So he’s an unnecessary passenger then?

He's a decent option off the bench and cover for Neves who can also play centre half. Him and Neves as a pair doesn't work and the latter is a much better footballer.

 

[WickedWolfie]

It's very generous to refer to most of the comments in here as "interpreting a set of data".

It's all basically, "we lost, so I'm in a stinking mood, so I'm going to criticise every player".

Neves has been a key man while we finished 7th twice, and yet all of a sudden, if we don't offload him in the summer, we're going to be relegated by January, apparently.

I think it's a good thing the fans haven't been in this year - it means our players haven't had to endure some of the "support" our fans would have given them during bad results.

I agree, if you assume that those on the Mix are representative of the wider fanbase. In reality l seriously doubt that and fear that, had some of the comments posted on here been made at a full Molineux, violence would have ensued. We've seen it before....

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

Weird, I haven't seen many people mentioning that based on xG, we would only expect to have conceded 2 goals yesterday, so we were unlucky that Burnley's finishing was unexpectedly good.

I think it's clear that a lot of people here are talking based on their emotional reaction, that's why there's so many comments along the lines of "that was embarrassing so there need to be repercussions", rather than "with a couple of quality additions, we could be back to where we want to be next season".

West Ham were what, 16th or 17th last season, added a couple of high quality players, got on a roll, and are right up there now. And yet if you read this thread we need to offload about 10 first team players, and the manager, otherwise we're certain to be relegated.

A 2 nil loss against Burnley, would be bad enough considering.
We were beaten by the better side, so I get the response, but you are right in that it is important we stick to the facts.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

If money is no object then I'd like a new spine to the team.
I've said time and time again, that this season it has been the core; the experienced international players that have been letting us down. This isn't the first time we've conceded 4 this season with our supposed first choice back line. That was a strong team we had out.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Coady
Dendoncker
Saiss
Boly
Kilman
AIT-NOURI

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

He wasn't exactly an option for the other two though, was he?
Our front three were poor. He had the most space and he didn't use it. When he took it on he didn't beat players and for me was our poorest player offensively again.
I don't think he's fully fit, because he doesn't look as quick as I remember him being, and he doesn't look like he's got the beating of anyone at the moment.
And defensively, he does nowt.

Yeah don’t disagree . I just think it’s bigger than individual players .

And is the system primarily

close down the wing backs you stop wolves. Been the same for 3 years

 

[OLDGOLD]

I don't think it is just as simple as saying x or y is not good enough, because on their day they can all perform.
I think as a unit things need changing and freshening up. They certainly do tactically.
We all know that whoever we move on will look better elsewhere, and I also think that there are players out there who would look better at Wolves than their current clubs.
Despite the heat of the moment comments by some on here yesterday, myself no doubt included, many of us are sentimental at heart and don't like the thought of good club servants moving on.
That said, I would not take up the option on Jose.
I think the reliance on Coady is holding us back.
Saiss and Donk should be squad players ideally.
Moutinho is likely to play less next season.
I think we need more proven quality than OO, MGW and Vitinha as his replacement options, so at least one of them should be moved on, my preference being MGW.
I still think Silva will do a job, but we must assess where we are with Raul and not leave ourselves so light up top.
If Podence is not fit, rest him.
Assess where we are with Neto and Johnny. 2 injuries consecutively for Johnny has me worrying about his future.
Many of the current players need to have a look at themselves on the balance of this season, and the same goes for the coaches.
There may well be bids for players we do not want to leave, we need to have replacements lined up before they go.

So many variables, and I think this summer could be Fosuns most testing one yet. We have ridden the momentum from our championship winning season, but that has run out big time this year. Doing nothing sees us falling back. We simply cannot afford a poor transfer window from a football perspective, the question is can we or will we afford one financially?

 

[Biffana wolf]

This a very sad view you have of the whole Wolves organization. Do you see any hope at all?

Yes it is i love wolves have had a golden 3 season and spoiled. But for me the pinnacle was the run in europa. That exposed to me that we didn't have the squad depth to cope with two cup competitions a league run and Europe. The squad was too small to cope with many players also going out to play in each international break. That was the time to add players. Instead we sold, recruitment was very poor and has resulted to where we are. Can it be saved yes if we get rid of dead wood and buy 5 or 6 quality players.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Sorry but for me 60% of those there so called playing today could leave play with kids and wouldn't be any worse. We will I predict with these players and no big changes including the manager be relegated easily by January of next year.
Solutions are in the squad lie
Transfer windows didnt help lie
Money is available lie
Nuno picks the players to buy lie
Jiminez injury and jota and doc going destroyed season lie
Building a project lie
Change of system to get more possession lie.

Totally reliant on a scouser to hold us back truth
Winger who can't cross and two so called wingback true
Projects finished true
No re development or long term plan true
Too defensive true
Nuno can see what a good player is true
Nuno talks same crap every week true

no team has ever been relegated in January.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

If money is no object then I'd like a new spine to the team.
I've said time and time again, that this season it has been the core; the experienced international players that have been letting us down. This isn't the first time we've conceded 4 this season with our supposed first choice back line. That was a strong team we had out.

Johnny
Raul
Neto
Moutinho

Take 4 of the best players out of any team at one point and see how they do.

 

[Deleted member 11332]

Johnny
Raul
Neto
Moutinho

Take 4 of the best players out of any team at one point and see how they do.

Moutinho isn't one of our 4 best players to be a pedantic ********. Although he was class in our EUFA Europa League campaign last year.

 

[AlexWolvesHD]

Another computer game player.....

Most the players i named aren't even in our first team squad anymore or are fringe players we would all agree need moving on, saiss would be the last chance to fetch a fee for him as january he can sign for someone else for free, coady has no place in a back 4 but can guarantee he stays, boly is injury prone and a liability in a back 4, everyone wants traore gone and neves is the only one who would fetch a decent fee and we might manage to get 80mil for the pair of them combined

Our players were signed to play a 523 formation if we are to progress we need to go to a back 4 and control games more which requires different players

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Moutinho isn't one of our 4 best players to be a pedantic ********. Although he was class in our EUFA Europa League campaign last year.

Doesnt spend many games on the bench when he is fit.

 

[Deleted member 11332]

Doesnt spend many games on the bench when he is fit.

Suppose that's more lack of competition issue though right?

Ps gutted you didn't take the bait. Haha.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Suppose that's more lack of competition issue though right?

Ps gutted you didn't take the bait. Haha.

I nearly took the bait lol.

 

[SakosRightFoot]

Johnny
Raul
Neto
Moutinho

Take 4 of the best players out of any team at one point and see how they do.

This is a very important point. This season has been disappointing but we’ll finish mid table having been without our 2 most consistent players over the last couple of years in Jonny and Jimenez for almost the entire season. It’s telling that in the short periods only one was available we were actually very much on top 10 if not higher form.

We do need another central defender, central midfielder and a forward option but then that’s been the case for a year or more. The rest of the squad are more than capable but any team is badly affected when missing so many key players.

Crucially we don’t have the funds to do a mass clear out anyway. The likelihood is we’ll use whatever we can get for Vinagre, Sanderson, Gibbs-White, Jordao, Cutrone and Mir to fund new signings but they won’t be world beaters. Perhaps this is finally the time we get someone like Palhinha to add legs to the midfield

 

[Contrarian]

This season has undoubtedly been poor. However, l can't help thinking that quite a few people in their disappointment are offering knee-jerk hostage to fortune extreme views that could well come back to bite them in the ass in future.....

It's not a "knee-jerk" reaction anymore. OK, you may disagree with the reaction. But yesterdays debacle has been brewing for months - well over a year, even.

It's a reaction to what we know we are going to get week-after-week, because nothing is improving. A team that starts every match looking as in they are strangers to each other and as if they have no idea on who the opposition is and no plans to cope with them. So they just sit back and dawdle around hoping to get to half time at 0-0. Then carry on and hope that a moment of individual brilliance or set piece will snatch a goal, then we can all camp out in the edge of our penalty area again.

That is how we set out for every match, so this is no "knee jerk" to one defeat. Follow that recipe as above, which we do, and expect regulat thrashings and people to start saying you are the dullest team in the league. Sometimes it works, of course. And injuries affect the implementation . But even with a full squad that described above is exactly how we were playing *before* lockdown and Jonny and Raul injuries! The backlash was inevitable and it's been brewing for a long time.

 

[Superted]

I've got differing views on some of them but Patricio?

Yes he's not in particularly brilliant form right now but he's one of the top ten keepers in the world in my opinion.

 

[forge]

Saiss and Donk should only be squad players.


Sell all players on loan

along with Podence, Adama, Marcal, Ruddy, Morgan, Kilman, and Coady

 

[Loefah]

I've got differing views on some of them but Patricio?

Yes he's not in particularly brilliant form right now but he's one of the top ten keepers in the world in my opinion.

If you look up stats for goalkeepers, he's consistently at the bottom or near it in the Premier League.

On paper, Patricio's goals allowed and clean sheet stats look good, but in reality, Patricio has been the worst keeper in the league this year in terms of expected goals. The Portuguese keeper has allowed 5.1 more goals than expected so far this year, worst in the league, plus he ranks last among keepers in Europe's "Big 5" leagues in defensive actions outside the penalty area.

The Numbers Don't Lie When It Comes To Ranking Premier League Goalkeepers

Traditional stats just don't do justice to the modern goalkeeper.

the18.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1359214925349011461

 

[WickedWolfie]

It's not a "knee-jerk" reaction anymore. OK, you may disagree with the reaction. But yesterdays debacle has been brewing for months - well over a year, even.

It's a reaction to what we know we are going to get week-after-week, because nothing is improving. A team that starts every match looking as in they are strangers to each other and as if they have no idea on who the opposition is and no plans to cope with them. So they just sit back and dawdle around hoping to get to half time at 0-0. Then carry on and hope that a moment of individual brilliance or set piece will snatch a goal, then we can all camp out in the edge of our penalty area again.

That is how we set out for every match, so this is no "knee jerk" to one defeat. Follow that recipe as above, which we do, and expect regulat thrashings and people to start saying you are the dullest team in the league. Sometimes it works, of course. And injuries affect the implementation . But even with a full squad that described above is exactly how we were playing *before* lockdown and Jonny and Raul injuries! The backlash was inevitable and it's been brewing for a long time.

That is passionate but obviously represents your own perception. I'm unsure to what extent others would agree; certainly l don't.

 

[Deleted member yltz11841]

That is passionate but obviously represents your own perception. I'm unsure to what extent others would agree; certainly l don't.

if you do not agree, what is your perception of our play this year

 

[hollo]

Possible transfer money

Rafa mir 15 million
Cutrone 7.5 million
Gibbs white 5 million
Killman 4 million
Vinagre 8.5 million
Traore 35 million( won't sign contract)
Giles 1 million
Campana 500k
Bruno jordao 2 million

Circa 80 million

We could raise more if pedro goncalves is sold by sporting 12.5 million or swansea get promotion ( bennett five million promotion clause)

 

[Halesowen wwfc]

Whether with nuno or without 4 starting players are required. Wholesale changes wont happen and are not required i feel.

Keep 1st team
Patricio
Semedo
Ait Nouri
Boly
New cd 25m ish
Neves
New dynamic centre mid 25m palinha
New winger (trincao) 35m
Raul
Neto
New 2nd striker 25m Vinicius

110m spend

Squad
Coady
Saiss (would gain little in sale price if sold)
Hoever
Podence (impact sub)
Moutinho (steady the ship late on)
Otosowie
Mgw
Corbenau
Fabio
Shabani

Sell
Dendoncker £15m
Mir £12m
Traore £35m
Vitinha send back
Cutrone 7m
Vinagre 12m

81m incomming

Net spend 29m

 

[Contrarian]

That is passionate but obviously represents your own perception. I'm unsure to what extent others would agree; certainly l don't.

Fair enough! Now to be clear, I'm not saying we are a bad squad ,that we are an awful team and so on. But that we have been *playing* mostly poor football this season, with the roots of it going back into last season. All I want is to fix it - which requires acknowledging it in the first place. Our performance level is that of a bottom 6 team and has been hovering around that level too much this season. Without improvement, that will continue.

Have you noticed *something* about how we play half a match? The first half specifically? Every match, more or less the same? Do you not think it a little odd that since 2 goals in the first 10 mins of the season, since then, we have scored only 1 goal in the first 15 minutes of any match? How do you explain that?

I see a malaise that has fallen over the club this past year. Covid almost certainly plays a part, but it's been going on a long time now and as they say "is the new normal" for most of us. And most other clubs in the league have had problems, but are clearly coping with it now and have been for ages. I'm just trying to understand the change from how well we played a couple of years ago to now. I know people will go "injuries", but how does an injury to Raul cause Neves free kick technique to deteriorate? How do injuries prevent fit players running in a match? How do injuries make us into a Jekyll and Hyde team that can play very well for the occasional 15 minute burst, while looking like strangers for the rest of the match - and this happening so often, it is a distinct pattern.

Would you be surprised if Nuno left in the summer? If he does and had been planning to for a while now, that would explain it all more than anything. I'm not saying he is leaving, just that if he did, then I would be like "Ah!! Now we know what it was all about". Similarly, if 3 or 4 core players (neves/Raul/Coady/Moutinho etc) all left and had been known within the club to be leaving, again, it would explain "what I am seeing match after match" far better than Covid/no pre-season/injuries.

The team seems to have gone, the whole is less than the sum of the parts. Virtually every match... and it's not getting better.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Fair enough! Now to be clear, I'm not saying we are a bad squad ,that we are an awful team and so on. But that we have been *playing* mostly poor football this season, with the roots of it going back into last season. All I want is to fix it - which requires acknowledging it in the first place. Our performance level is that of a bottom 6 team and has been hovering around that level most of this season. Without improvement, that will continue.

Have you noticed *something* about how we play half a match? The first half specifically? Every match, more or less the same? Do you not think it a little odd that since 2 goals in the first 10 mins of the season, since then, we have scored only 1 goal in the first 15 minutes of any match? How do you explain that?

I see a malaise that has fallen over the club this past year. Covid almost certainly plays a part, but it's been going on a long time now and as they say "is the new normal" for most of us. And most other clubs in the league have had problems, but are clearly coping with it now and have been for ages. I'm just trying to understand the change from how well we played a couple of years ago to now. I know people will go "injuries", but how does an injury to Raul cause Neves free kick technique to deteriorate? How do injuries prevent fit players running in a match? How do injuries make us into a Jekyll and Hyde team that can play very well for the occasional 15 minute burst, while looking like strangers for the rest of the match - and this happening so often, it is a distinct pattern.

Would you be surprised if Nuno left in the summer? If he does and had been planning to for a while now, that would explain it all more than anything. I'm not saying he is leaving, just that if he did, then I would be like "Ah!! Now we know what it was all about". Similarly, if 3 or 4 core players (neves/Raul/Coady/Moutinho etc) all left and had been known within the club to be leaving, again, it would explain "what I am seeing match after match" far better than Covid/no pre-season/injuries.

The team seems to have gone, the whole is less than the sum of the parts. Virtually every match... and it's not getting better.

I wouldn't disagree with much of the early part of your post. I suspect that Nuno does not intend to leave - he doesn't seem to me to be the type of guy who would sign a new contract and then walk within six months. I would be unsurprised, particularly given that things do seem to be rather stale, if some "core" players are moving on (possibly whether they know it or not!).

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

We need a new defence pronto!

As for midfield that also needs reconstructing.

Neves is past his best.. Get whatever we can for him and Dendoncker I’d keep Moutinho for his experience

Pretty much a new team is needed.

Let’s try use the free agent market too Jeff!!

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

Johnny
Raul
Neto
Moutinho

Take 4 of the best players out of any team at one point and see how they do.

I'd hope they would do better than losing 4-0 at home to Burnley.
But that was not my point. Jonny aside, the defence and keeper were our first choice, and the reason we were 3-0 down before half time. This isn't the first time this has happened this season.
Raul out can only be an excuse for so long. We signed Jose as an experienced player to help Fabio Silva come along. We'd have done better to sign Chris Wood.
After two good performances, Semedo went back to not looking like a defender again. I thought Saiss played well for the most part, but then got caught in possesion for the 4th. Coady was ineffective to say the least, and Rui Patricio should save the first, and come out and punch the 3rd. 7 shots on target shouldn't end up in 4 goals.

 

[Contrarian]

We need a new defence pronto!

As for midfield that also needs reconstructing.

Neves is past his best.. Get whatever we can for him and Dendoncker I’d keep Moutinho for his experience

Pretty much a new team is needed.

Let’s try use the free agent market too Jeff!!

but...but.. but. .. Looking at the league table and every single one of the trillions of available stats, they all point to Lack Of Goal Scoring as our problem!

Our defence are not The Invincibles, but it is surely the least of our concerns? It is a good standard for this level and I would even say, the only reason we are on 41 points and not panicking on 35 is precisely because our defence has been solid and won the occasional point or two here or there when our attack has been virtually non-existant. 6 points in two matches v Fulham and Sheff U. The two 1-0 wins v Leeds where Leeds did their usual loads of attacking, had many half chances, it was our defence that won us those points .. .and so on.

Our top scorer is a midfielder on a paltry 5 goals and people say our defence is the problem. Pah!

 

[BigSteve]

Patricio KEEP
Saiss GO
Podence KEEP
Dendoncker KEEP (Seriously you're deluded if you want him gone)
Gibbs White GET OUT
Moutinho KEEP
Traore SELL SELL SELL
Marcal KEEP
Jose SEND BACK ASAP
Vitinha Hasn't played enough to judge.

Dendoncker: good enough to start for the #1 international team in the world but yeah he's rubbish and not good enough for the mighty Wolverhampton Wanderers Football Club of Molineux Stadium WV1 founded in 1877.

 

[Axle]

I would keep them all but buy 4 ready to play players that push the current ones onto the bench.

2 Central defenders with pace
1 midfielder
1 forward

That's going to cost probably £200M.

Where does the money come from for that?

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

I'd hope they would do better than losing 4-0 at home to Burnley.
But that was not my point. Jonny aside, the defence and keeper were our first choice, and the reason we were 3-0 down before half time. This isn't the first time this has happened this season.
Raul out can only be an excuse for so long. We signed Jose as an experienced player to help Fabio Silva come along. We'd have done better to sign Chris Wood.
After two good performances, Semedo went back to not looking like a defender again. I thought Saiss played well for the most part, but then got caught in possesion for the 4th. Coady was ineffective to say the least, and Rui Patricio should save the first, and come out and punch the 3rd. 7 shots on target shouldn't end up in 4 goals.

Johnny is our best defender. Liverpool lost Van Dijk there best defender and have fell apart.

Raul will be an excuse until he is fit again. Jose isnt anywhere near his level, neither is Silva (yet) and as for Chris Wood, why would he have come to us as a stop gap?

 

[WKFWolf]

Donk is **** for us - couldnt give a flying **** how he does at international level if he plays like a wet lettuce every week for WWFC alongside being one of the worst players technically ive ever seen play at the top level

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

If money is no object then I'd like a new spine to the team.
I've said time and time again, that this season it has been the core; the experienced international players that have been letting us down. This isn't the first time we've conceded 4 this season with our supposed first choice back line. That was a strong team we had out.

Like all clubs money is an object.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

but...but.. but. .. Looking at the league table and every single one of the trillions of available stats, they all point to Lack Of Goal Scoring as our problem!

Our defence are not The Invincibles, but it is surely the least of our concerns? It is a good standard for this level and I would even say, the only reason we are on 41 points and not panicking on 35 is precisely because our defence has been solid and won the occasional point or two here or there when our attack has been virtually non-existant. 6 points in two matches v Fulham and Sheff U. The two 1-0 wins v Leeds where Leeds did their usual loads of attacking, had many half chances, it was our defence that won us those points .. .and so on.

Our top scorer is a midfielder on a paltry 5 goals and people say our defence is the problem. Pah!

It's harder to score when the opposition don't have to. We've given away too many cheap goals. Sort out the defence, maybe we could play a back 4 with the right players, maybe we could get more players forward without going 3 down in minutes.
How many times have we been criticised for being overly negative? How many times have we then opened up only to get battered?

Teams that have put three or more past us include Burnley, Brighton, west brom, West ham twice, as well as Liverpool and Man City(twice). Have I missed anyone off?

 

[Halesowen wwfc]

I wouldn't disagree with much of the early part of your post. I suspect that Nuno does not intend to leave - he doesn't seem to me to be the type of guy who would sign a new contract and then walk within six months. I would be unsurprised, particularly given that things do seem to be rather stale, if some "core" players are moving on (possibly whether they know it or not!).

Its a tough one. He did walk from valencia rather than be sacked because of fan pressure. Its difficult because he hasnt had lots of jobs to build a trend. Very successful at rio ave, successful for his first 2 years at valencia, then fans sick of his playing style, then 12 months at porto where he left again because of fans unhappy with negative playing style, even though they finished second in the league