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Summer Transfer Window 2022.

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sc91

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Yes, and that's basically the same thing, unless you particularly care about how much that US Media company's stake in Wolves is.
So changing debt into equity doesn't mean that money isn't going to be recouped by Fosun. All it means is that they will no longer invest in Wolves.
 

JOSWolf

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I know it isn't the best source but football insider saying Minamino rejected a move to us.
 

Northampton_wolf

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So £1.6Bn debt isn't a problem then. Great. Convinced me.

Could you tell my wife that taking a small overdraft to go watch Wolves pre-season tour is a worthwhile investment as well please.

Just want to remind you the current UK Debt

UK general government gross debt was £2,382.8 billion at the end of 2021, equivalent to 102.8% of gross domestic product (GDP); this was .

Fosun's debt to equity ratio is running at something like 1.7

Apple - 0.3
Microsoft about 0.4
Mercedes benz 1.4
Ford Motor company 5.4

Just to give you context, im a financial advisor by trade, i wouldnt be to worried about the running debt - share price dropping off 50% in the last 5 years is alongside the poor Chinese equity market.

This all of it isnt going to affect wolves
 

Flump

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So £1.6Bn debt isn't a problem then. Great. Convinced me.

Could you tell my wife that taking a small overdraft to go watch Wolves pre-season tour is a worthwhile investment as well please.

Given they made £1.2b in profit last year, it's not a massive problem on it's own.

If we have to use an analogy from household finances, then it would be like having a mortgage of slightly more than your annual salary - i.e. pretty normal.
 

JOSWolf

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Its times like this where you really need the "come here as we qualified for European Football" carrot to dangle. The capitulation last year really was unforgiveable and will hurt us in the transfer market for the better players who have options.

Totally agree.
 

sc91

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Just want to remind you fosun did write of all of the debt from wolves to them.


Wolves as a club is in a very sound position
Absolutely correct that Wolves are financially sound, it is just a false narrative to not give the full and true picture of what a debt write off (aka conversion to equity) entails that from a business perspective it is a plus, from the view of a football club and that side, it is a negative, because the tap is off.
 

Premier Quality

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Tough business, recruitment.

I often wonder why we can’t uncover the players that reach {insert big European club} and then go on to sell for 4/5x, but even then we’re competing with Benfica, Milan and the likes of..

We’ve got to try and do something different to attract these players to Wolves.

There’s got to be something beyond just training in the midlands for a middle of the road Premier League club and then travelling to games.

There are some lovely parts to live, but in comparison to London, or major European cities, we can’t compete with the lifestyle. We just can’t.

Time to do something radical.
Franchise us to a leafy outskirt of London?
 

Northampton_wolf

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Absolutely correct that Wolves are financially sound, it is just a false narrative to not give the full and true picture of what a debt write off (aka conversion to equity) entails that from a business perspective it is a plus, from the view of a football club and that side, it is a negative, because the tap is off.

Just because the debt is written off at that time, doesnt mean they wont turn the tap back on?

I mean it makes sense to write it off in 2021 given covid, in terms or accounting numbers.
 

Mighty Thor

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Just want to remind you fosun did write of all of the debt from wolves to them.


Wolves as a club is in a very sound position

The didn’t write anything off. Inter company debt is just equity anyway albeit structured as debt for tax reasons. That fosun debt just had the interest rate removed (it was probably close to zero or pay in kind anyway) and the maturity date removed. Ie it was converted from debt to equity. That’s the only difference.

What’s the difference between straight equity and debt with a 100 year maturity, bullet repayment at maturity and a 0.005% interest. There isn’t one apart from one is called debt and one is called equity.
 

YouGottaRaulWithIt

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Just want to remind you the current UK Debt

UK general government gross debt was £2,382.8 billion at the end of 2021, equivalent to 102.8% of gross domestic product (GDP); this was .

Fosun's debt to equity ratio is running at something like 1.7

Apple - 0.3
Microsoft about 0.4
Mercedes benz 1.4
Ford Motor company 5.4

Just to give you context, im a financial advisor by trade, i wouldnt be to worried about the running debt - share price dropping off 50% in the last 5 years is alongside the poor Chinese equity market.

This all of it isnt going to affect wolves
Yes, but seriously, when are you going to have a word with my wife about the tour?
 

Hoganstolemywife

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I know it isn't the best source but football insider saying Minamino rejected a move to us.
I would stake my pitiful reputation (!) On the line that we were never interested in him. Very unWolves player....thankfully.

As for the comment about European football....you know, when we qualified for Europe, I thought we would be able to sign the next level up of player. Didn't really happen for us though.

I understand that CL football is massive but I get the sense that no one cares about the Europa/Conference league
 

jwolfie91

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Just a potential, but of course Argentine journalists would make out that River and playing in the Copa Libertadores are more prestigious than a move to England, but in reality we all know the truth.
I mean it is far more prestigious to play for River than it is to play for a mid table Prem team, just nowhere near as lucrative - which is the crux of the issue
 

Flump

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So changing debt into equity doesn't mean that money isn't going to be recouped by Fosun. All it means is that they will no longer invest in Wolves.

I don't not understand how you haven't used so many double negatives.

Writing off the debt does not mean they won't invest in us, that's a completely separate decision.
 

oldgoldheart

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So changing debt into equity doesn't mean that money isn't going to be recouped by Fosun. All it means is that they will no longer invest in Wolves.
That may be true but that is not a result of a debt for equity swap. They could easily lend more money to wolves. Depends on their view of the likely return i guess. Its not a sign of fosun losing interest. It makes wolves a bit more stable as they cant just ask for the money back and bankrupt wolves. For us as fans it should be a big positive. Any lender can call a loan in. Once it is equity it is harder to withdraw
 

sc91

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Just because the debt is written off at that time, doesnt mean they wont turn the tap back on?

I mean it makes sense to write it off in 2021 given covid, in terms or accounting numbers.
You aren't going to take out another debt with Fosun having previously 'written off' the last one, tax wise it isn't advisable but also it logically makes very little sense.

As for covid, they chose to the defer income if I am correct in the prior 2020 accounts, a clearance to equity is generally only used for either a window dressing purpose or to truly draw the line in the sand and say our work is done.

Wolves very healthy business, but a self sustaining one.
 

Black Country Wanderer

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Bit of over reaction on Fosun
All investment business runs on debt,in fact most Football clubs run on debt,just manageable debt
Most of the top European clubs are 100s of millions in debt yet still buy players at huge cost every season
We are actually well run as far as that is concerned,so dont worry about financial markets they go up they go down
This time next year Rodders.......
 

Hoganstolemywife

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So changing debt into equity doesn't mean that money isn't going to be recouped by Fosun. All it means is that they will no longer invest in Wolves.
Not sure that computes!

It's probably true as a statement, but it doesn't bear correlation to the above statement.

Wolves are a player trading operation for Fosun. They've said it themselves. Nothing wrong with that - I'm happy to be a PL player trading operation instead of a ****ty Championship club.

It means every transfer is arranged with ROI very much at the forefront. Provided we get the right players in, excellent. South American market makes a great deal of sense to me, accordingly. We just have to convince the players I guess
 

sc91

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I don't not understand how you haven't used so many double negatives.

Writing off the debt does not mean they won't invest in us, that's a completely separate decision.
So fosun having wrote off debt, as you correctly said, will once again open debt with Wolves in the same vein likely devaluing their equity that they've just created. Not to mention the tax ramifications. Its would be highly suspect business practice to go that route.

Now what they might do is getting better terms of credit from other outside lenders, that's true, but fosun themselves reinvesting again would be going totally against everything they've stated about wolves self sustaining.
 

jwolfie91

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So fosun having wrote off debt, as you correctly said, will once again open debt with Wolves in the same vein likely devaluing their equity that they've just created. Not to mention the tax ramifications. Its would be highly suspect business practice to go that route.

Now what they might do is getting better terms of credit from other outside lenders, that's true, but fosun themselves reinvesting again would be going totally against everything they've stated about wolves self sustaining.
Yeah, they've given their investment to us the club will be expected to stand on it's own two feet now. It is what it is
 

sc91

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Not sure that computes!

It's probably true as a statement, but it doesn't bear correlation to the above statement.

Wolves are a player trading operation for Fosun. They've said it themselves. Nothing wrong with that - I'm happy to be a PL player trading operation instead of a ****ty Championship club.

It means every transfer is arranged with ROI very much at the forefront. Provided we get the right players in, excellent. South American market makes a great deal of sense to me, accordingly. We just have to convince the players I guess
Invest purely as a direct 1 to 1 loan from Fosun to Wolves, I can't see that ever happening again, doesn't make sense, but getting better lines of credit with a lender to fund a transfer for sure does seem an option but as you noted, it will all be with one eye on getting a return from saddling the club with that further debt.

I'd say it has left Wolves in a bit of a limbo, a club that is content to tred water, I am not overly convinced in the money grab world that is top flight football that this is something that works longer term.
 

Fifty Niner

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Its times like this where you really need the "come here as we qualified for European Football" carrot to dangle. The capitulation last year really was unforgiveable and will hurt us in the transfer market for the better players who have options.
I mentioned elsewhere that Bruno is fortunate the decision makers are no longer as ambitious for top 6/regular European football as they once were. The way we dropped off was shocking but a combination of poor first XI investment and injuries saved his job. And they couldn’t really sack him when they effectively ignored his pleas for new players.
 

Slothmonkey

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The £17m for him this window is going to be the same £17m in January.

If that's the case might as well sign Jack Cork and settle for meh players
I am not saying settle for meh players but you were talking in certainty. I was merely making a point. You cannot predict how well a player will settle and perform at a new club. If we buy him now and let him stay he may get a serious injury. A lot of if's, but's and risk.
 

Axle

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Just want to remind you the current UK Debt

UK general government gross debt was £2,382.8 billion at the end of 2021, equivalent to 102.8% of gross domestic product (GDP); this was .

Fosun's debt to equity ratio is running at something like 1.7

Apple - 0.3
Microsoft about 0.4
Mercedes benz 1.4
Ford Motor company 5.4

Just to give you context, im a financial advisor by trade, i wouldnt be to worried about the running debt - share price dropping off 50% in the last 5 years is alongside the poor Chinese equity market.

This all of it isnt going to affect wolves
OK, so can you explain why countries can run such massive debts and not be 'broke'? I often hear about the line where we shouldn't compare nation state debt to household budgeting, but I've never really understood it.

Not really on topic, but think I would like to learn (read The Economist every week, but this is never really explained in there).

Thanks.
 

Hoganstolemywife

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Invest purely as a direct 1 to 1 loan from Fosun to Wolves, I can't see that ever happening again, doesn't make sense, but getting better lines of credit with a lender to fund a transfer for sure does seem an option but as you noted, it will all be with one eye on getting a return from saddling the club with that further debt.

I'd say it has left Wolves in a bit of a limbo, a club that is content to tred water, I am not overly convinced in the money grab world that is top flight football that this is something that works longer term.
Me neither. If we assume that there will be a new Newcastle every few years, the premier league is going to be only suitable for the richer billionaires at some point. Ludicrous!
 

sc91

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Me neither. If we assume that there will be a new Newcastle every few years, the premier league is going to be only suitable for the richer billionaires at some point. Ludicrous!
Truth and there does get a point where the fans inevitably do tire of knowing that they're never really going anywhere (Portsmouth, Blackburn, Bolton, Charlton etc etc) and what we have seen in recent examples of Everton, Villa and the best to keep an eye on, Southampton.

In footballer terms there's only so many you can convince to come play with you without mentioning the a word.
 

YouGottaRaulWithIt

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So fosun having wrote off debt, as you correctly said, will once again open debt with Wolves in the same vein likely devaluing their equity that they've just created. Not to mention the tax ramifications. Its would be highly suspect business practice to go that route.

Now what they might do is getting better terms of credit from other outside lenders, that's true, but fosun themselves reinvesting again would be going totally against everything they've stated about wolves self sustaining.
So,just to clarify...

Fosun in debt, but not to worry, Wolves are a stand alone business

We shouldn't expect an extra influx of cash though, and have to sell to buy

So, if Neves is staying, we can't get much for Adama, and we can't sell Jiminez or Dendonker, then we have to re-evaluate our recruitment strategy.

Has anyone got Keiffer Moore's phone number?
 

Bacon Sandwich

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Just want to remind you the current UK Debt

UK general government gross debt was £2,382.8 billion at the end of 2021, equivalent to 102.8% of gross domestic product (GDP); this was .

Fosun's debt to equity ratio is running at something like 1.7

Apple - 0.3
Microsoft about 0.4
Mercedes benz 1.4
Ford Motor company 5.4

Just to give you context, im a financial advisor by trade, i wouldnt be to worried about the running debt - share price dropping off 50% in the last 5 years is alongside the poor Chinese equity market.

This all of it isnt going to affect wolves
Share price dropping 50% over 5 years is alongside poor Chinese equity market?
The Shanghai Composite closed 2018 at 2,494. It ended May at 3,186 - a gain of 27.7%. If Fosun's share price is down 50% in roughly that time I'd be more than a little worried, especially given the liquidity problems at companies like Evergrande
 

jwolfie91

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OK, so can you explain why countries can run such massive debts and not be 'broke'? I often hear about the line where we shouldn't compare nation state debt to household budgeting, but I've never really understood it.

Not really on topic, but think I would like to learn (read The Economist every week, but this is never really explained in there).

Thanks.
As long as you can service debt, you are never broke in relation to it. Could owe £1500 quid and be broke, or owe roughly $300M in debt and be Apple.
 
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