Stadium Plans

[YouGottaRaulWithIt]

As long as I can walk to the ground at 2.30 from the Combermere Arms, I don’t mind where they rebuild the ground.

Well that settles it.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

In my opinion, Wolves have as least a big fan base as West Ham.
West Ham attracted a lot of new supporters, when they were gifted their present stadium.
We have missed and are missing an ideal opportunity, to attract new supporters for our future, by not having a bigger stadium.

Sorry I don’t see any parts of that being right at all.

 

[lets all have a disco]

West ham do very generous concession ticket for OAP and £99 season tickets for u18 to fill the new ground.....that's where a lot of the extra fans came from...

Pricing | West Ham United

West Ham United

www.seasontickets.whufc.com

 

[Abbobrom]

Since our glory years in the fifties, our catchment area has increased. Telford has appeared as a new town, Cannock, Rugeley and Stafford have increased in size and the Black country has stayed the same. We are the northern most Premier side before the North West. We could I am sure fill a forty thousand seat stadium.

 

[Stourport wolf]

Sorry I don’t see any parts of that being right at all.

Well, before 2002, they had only ever averaged 30,000 4 times in their whole history.
Wolves had averaged over 30,000 19 times and 3 of those being over 40,000.

 

[Jay Jay de Wolf]

Since our glory years in the fifties, our catchment area has increased. Telford has appeared as a new town, Cannock, Rugeley and Stafford have increased in size and the Black country has stayed the same. We are the northern most Premier side before the North West. We could I am sure fill a forty thousand seat stadium.

I would out bid you and say 45,000 easily would more or less fill Molineux in the PL now. . As now more or less Molineux is a sellout every PL home game Plus like the other week against Brentford only 1000 of their fans were there. Meaning 30,000 Wolves fans filled rest stadium and with still around 10,000 on ST waiting list makes 40,000 alone Then there's all those members and general public that never get a ticket some weeks

 

[SE10 Wolf]

I would out bid you and say 45,000 easily would more or less fill Molineux in the PL now. . As now more or less Molineux is a sellout every PL home game Plus like the other week against Brentford only 1000 of their fans were there. Meaning 30,000 Wolves fans filled rest stadium and with still around 10,000 on ST waiting list makes 40,000 alone Then there's all those members and general public that never get a ticket some weeks

And don’t forget significantly larger away allocations; maybe even a flexible away ‘end’ - the atmosphere would be immense when we played those with good sized followings.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I would out bid you and say 45,000 easily would more or less fill Molineux in the PL now. . As now more or less Molineux is a sellout every PL home game Plus like the other week against Brentford only 1000 of their fans were there. Meaning 30,000 Wolves fans filled rest stadium and with still around 10,000 on ST waiting list makes 40,000 alone Then there's all those members and general public that never get a ticket some weeks

There's no chance that 10,000 extra people would buy STs if they could at present prices (and performance). We'd certainly get 40k for the bigger fixtures at more sensible prices though.

 

[TheWolfFromWolverhampton]

I would love for the Wolves stadium to be at maximum capacity, when this happens. As there has been a delay. I would support any capacity increase to the ground, and would support any work done to the stadium. How little or big this work is.

 

[Jay Jay de Wolf]

There's no chance that 10,000 extra people would buy STs if they could at present prices (and performance). We'd certainly get 40k for the bigger fixtures at more sensible prices though.

Saturdays game v West Ham is an example that I'd didn't know about, Which was some ST holders share their tickets and would like one of their own..
I found out when I went to the Royal Oak (Compton Rd) before the game with a spare ticket. Before I got into the pub I sold the ticket I saw the landlord Terry and asked him in garden if he could ask around anyone who needed a ticket. He went straight up to the nearest guy sitting at table in garden area, Matt I think his name was and quickly phoned his mate Dean who agreed to buy the ticket off me. Well he gave me the money for ticket for Dean there and then. I left the Oak without meeting Dean there but obviously was sitting next to me when I got to the Molineux in the Stan Cullis upper. With that Dean explained to me he shares his season ticket with his mate in the Steve Bull upper and he was so pleased to have my spare ticket and said has he'd never been in the Stan Cullis stand before and how impressed he was with these seats row L not too far up the stand towards the middle. Plus he liked the better concourse in that stand also.

 

[oldgoldheart]

this is a totally pointless thread as Fosun are going to do nothing but this debate over could we/couldn't we fill 40-45,000 rages on regardless. my perspective is that we would easily fill it . in 1985 sunderland averaged 19,000. newcastle averaged 24,000 and liverpool 34,000. all top flight at the time. wolverhampton as a place lacks ambition. leicester were tiny but get 30k plus now. villa were on 19,000 now 40 plus with expansion plans.

just because in the 50s we "only" averaged in the early 40s says more about that era than our potential. we were not alone

if we do as seems likely and mess about at the current capacity we will end up back in the championship. 31k is not a big enough stadium and we would fill 40k-45k in the premier league. in the end there is a major correlation between capacity, revenue and league position.

 

[oldgoldheart]

Saturdays game v West Ham is an example that I'd didn't know about, Which was some ST holders share their tickets and would like one of their own..
I found out when I went to the Royal Oak (Compton Rd) before the game with a spare ticket. Before I got into the pub I sold the ticket I saw the landlord Terry and asked him in garden if he could ask around anyone who needed a ticket. He went straight up to the nearest guy sitting at table in garden area, Matt I think his name was and quickly phoned his mate Dean who agreed to buy the ticket off me. Well he gave me the money for ticket for Dean there and then. I left the Oak without meeting Dean there but obviously was sitting next to me when I got to the Molineux in the Stan Cullis upper. With that Dean explained to me he shares his season ticket with his mate in the Steve Bull upper and he was so pleased to have my spare ticket and said has he'd never been in the Stan Cullis stand before and how impressed he was with these seats row L not too far up the stand towards the middle.

i share my two tickets with a number of mates who cant get in regularly. in total we have 4 tickets covering 10 people. i earn Ok so give mine away but the others get sold at face value. we have done this for years

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

People always want to avoid the obvious when it comes to stadiums.

The elite can charge what they want because fans come from anywhere.

For the rest of us, cost is the most important factor by a mile. Not the size of the stand, the space in the concourse, and, to a degree, what you see on the pitch.

We could easily sell 40,000 if it was priced reasonably.

I look at Sunderland's crowds this season, they're incredible. Then I see a season ticket is £440 behind the goals, less than £20 a game.

The Blues chairman was on a video saying they've won every game they've sold out this season, but it's only like four times or something, and I know for a fact that two of those recently were because of offers. It was probably the same earlier this season.

Albion despised Lai until he sold the club in March. Did it impact attendances? Not at all. They're selling out nearly every week.
It's £349 an adult ticket behind the goals, £399 in other areas. Tickets are £28 for any league game.

You could make a case for our price being the worst in the entire league when you consider all the factors. To get what we're getting is outstanding and if it was reasonable, the fans would turn up.

 

[Perton Wolf]

Factoring in our very low wage bill this season too, where's the £ gone FOSUN?

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Factoring in our very low wage bill this season too, where's the £ gone FOSUN?

How problematic is mineral mining for electric cars? View attachment 41759

You know that's season where we lost £67m right?

Interesting article on minerals for car batteries though.

 

[JR WAS KING]

As long as I can walk to the ground at 2.30 from the Combermere Arms, I don’t mind where they rebuild the ground.

You and me both

 

[Minimalist]

I would out bid you and say 45,000 easily would more or less fill Molineux in the PL now. . As now more or less Molineux is a sellout every PL home game Plus like the other week against Brentford only 1000 of their fans were there. Meaning 30,000 Wolves fans filled rest stadium and with still around 10,000 on ST waiting list makes 40,000 alone Then there's all those members and general public that never get a ticket some weeks

Remember a lot of the members who buy tickets are the same people who are on the season ticket waiting list; so that isn’t an extra 10k on top of the 30k.

I’d prefer around 38k to begin with that would pretty much consistently sell out, rather than 45 which might often have 5k empty seats.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Am I missing something? How is it being fairly close to Curzon Street going to help this project work? Who is staying in a hotel in Small Heath rather than the City? Maybe town planning just isn't my thing?

It is probable that a new major city centre hub will develop in Brum around Curzon Street.

 

[WickedWolfie]

I think it depends on how this site gets connected to the new terminal. The site is approximately 1 mile from the new terminal. The wrong side of terminal for a city centre hotel, but if the site gets developed with offices etc. then potentially a decent development site.

Presumably "the wrong side" is significantly cheaper....

 

[wolvesjoe]

bSorry I don’t see any parts of that being right at all.

It really is just an uninformed and asserted pessimism that you continually argue on this theme of the stadium.

Clubs like Villa, Leicester, Brighton, all comparable to Wolves, are all looking to expand. The Premier league is
an incredible competition in that sense, with no obvious ceiling to popularity in sight, (VAR excepted).

Fosun's biggest error, by far.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

It really is just an uninformed and asserted pessimism that you continually argue on this theme of the stadium.

Clubs like Villa, Leicester, Brighton, all comparable to Wolves, are all looking to expand. The Premier league is
an incredible competition in that sense, with no obvious ceiling to popularity in sight, (VAR excepted).

Fosun's biggest error, by far.

Putting planning permission in and actually doing are completely different things. We had planning applications agreed and never went forward. Villa have shelved there’s, Leicester haven’t gone past the plan stage and could well shelve it looking at their own current financial position and Brighton have gone no further in their plans. As I’ve said before molineux needs development because two stands (one being the Steve Bull that desperately needs a facelift) aren’t fit for purpose now. However anything above 40k would be madness. The idea a new stadium will bring in rafts of additional income when it would take well over a decade to pay for it doesn’t make sense. Our need isn’t financial, it’s due to old facilities in one stand and one being too small.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Putting planning permission in and actually doing are completely different things. We had planning applications agreed and never went forward. Villa have shelved there’s, Leicester haven’t gone past the plan stage and could well shelve it looking at their own current financial position and Brighton have gone no further in their plans. As I’ve said before molineux needs development because two stands (one being the Steve Bull that desperately needs a facelift) aren’t fit for purpose now. However anything above 40k would be madness. The idea a new stadium will bring in rafts of additional income when it would take well over a decade to pay for it doesn’t make sense. Our need isn’t financial, it’s due to old facilities in one stand and one being too small.

I don’t think it matters in the short to medium term if it bring in more income or not. Spread the same revenue over the larger number of seats and have a lower per seat income, I don’t care. Get more fans in, get the kids in and brainwash the next generation. Demographics is destiny - I’m sure I read the average fan age at Molineux is 40 plus.we’ll soon be a dying breed.

 

[surreywolf]

It’s interest rates, Jeff has said before. If discussions are happening eg with council Uni and West Mids mayor, then it won’t take much for Fosun to move if the financial climate perks up in the next year or two as it’s all linked to regeneration (aka levelling up) which Gov desperately needs (and that’s any party post Election). So grants / support aplenty to make Molineux Quarter happen

 

[Minimalist]

It’s interest rates, Jeff has said before. If discussions are happening eg with council Uni and West Mids mayor, then it won’t take much for Fosun to move if the financial climate perks up in the next year or two as it’s all linked to regeneration (aka levelling up) which Gov desperately needs (and that’s any party post Election). So grants / support aplenty to make Molineux Quarter happen

Interest rates and the cost of materials and labour.
To rebuild the Steve bull to Morgan’s original phase 2 spec, I bet would cost 3 or 4 times what it would have had we just got on and done it straight after the north bank.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

It is probable that a new major city centre hub will develop in Brum around Curzon Street.

That was my point though, there's already loads of development. I don't see how it's going to provide much more footfall around St Andrews though. As for the people who actually arrive at Curzon St on HS2 then walking 20 back up the lines to share a multi sports complex with people from Small Heath - I think that's for the birds.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

I don’t think it matters in the short to medium term if it bring in more income or not. Spread the same revenue over the larger number of seats and have a lower per seat income, I don’t care. Get more fans in, get the kids in and brainwash the next generation. Demographics is destiny - I’m sure I read the average fan age at Molineux is 40 plus.we’ll soon be a dying breed.

I get your point but as you say you don’t care, which is because it’s not your money. If they spread the same revenue over additional seating then it’d never pay off or certainly not for decades, which for an investment company ownership won’t be attractive to Fosun.

I see this comment about youth being “locked out” a lot. Maybe it’s because my ST is in the south bank but I don’t see that at all. There’s a huge demographic of 20 somethings in there.

 

[Golden Arrow]

They won’t even replace the wolf head flag they use before kick off which has a massive hole in it, so it doesn’t matter how much it costs, they won’t do it as they clearly see no value in appearances.

Not wishing to have a pop at the club as they've done much good for us all, but looking at the flags (on the poles) in front of the Billy Wright stand the other day, I thought they'd started to look a bit shabby. Maybe it's in the clubs plans to replace them at some stage.
Just thinking, first impressions for those visiting Molineux, and all that.

 

[surreywolf]

Interest rates and the cost of materials and labour.
To rebuild the Steve bull to Morgan’s original phase 2 spec, I bet would cost 3 or 4 times what it would have had we just got on and done it straight after the north bank.

I don’t think it’d be total rebuild based on what the commercial chap (Russell??) said on that video last year inc about hosting concerts. Instead new lower tier of John Ireland, building out the back and doubling size of / filling corners of south bank

Probably wrong though - who knows

 

[wesley]

What do we think of Blues prospects now? Remaining games
Cov (H), Rotherham and Hudds (both away) Norwich (H)

The Huddersfield game is huge and Norwich may need a win to cement play offs.

 

[Minimalist]

I don’t think it matters in the short to medium term if it bring in more income or not. Spread the same revenue over the larger number of seats and have a lower per seat income, I don’t care. Get more fans in, get the kids in and brainwash the next generation. Demographics is destiny - I’m sure I read the average fan age at Molineux is 40 plus.we’ll soon be a dying breed.

I get your point but as you say you don’t care, which is because it’s not your money. If they spread the same revenue over additional seating then it’d never pay off or certainly not for decades, which for an investment company ownership won’t be attractive to Fosun.

I see this comment about youth being “locked out” a lot. Maybe it’s because my ST is in the south bank but I don’t see that at all. There’s a huge demographic of 20 somethings in there.

I think the key to a redevelopment is the corporate facilities. That is what made the north bank viable, and probably why Morgan originally wanted the south bank to mirror it. Ideally flourishing corporate areas could help keep the more general tickets a bit more reasonable price.
what I don’t know though is quite what the demand is for these sort of facilities at Molineux?

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

I think the key to a redevelopment is the corporate facilities. That is what made the north bank viable, and probably why Morgan originally wanted the south bank to mirror it. Ideally flourishing corporate areas could help keep the more general tickets a bit more reasonable price.
what I don’t know though is quite what the demand is for these sort of facilities at Molineux?

It’s certainly not difficult to get the semi corporate WV1 tickets, still on sale 48 hours before a game. Been in the Billy Wright corporate facilities before, don’t think it’s particularly hard to get them in there either.

Don’t get me wrong of course an increased capacity will increase income and definitely more corporate facilities will (though you obviously have to sell them). I just don’t buy into the rhetoric that we need a new stadium to compete financially with the big boys. Simple maths says the cost v income increase is a very long term plan and one which I think will out run Fosuns time here. If Fosun were a benefactor type owner then absolutely I’m for a new stadium because as I’ve said repeatedly it’s a better environment for fans but that’s a different argument to a financial reason to build one.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

It’s certainly not difficult to get the semi corporate WV1 tickets, still on sale 48 hours before a game. Been in the Billy Wright corporate facilities before, don’t think it’s particularly hard to get them in there either.

Don’t get me wrong of course an increased capacity will increase income and definitely more corporate facilities will (though you obviously have to sell them). I just don’t buy into the rhetoric that we need a new stadium to compete financially with the big boys. Simple maths says the cost v income increase is a very long term plan and one which I think will out run Fosuns time here. If Fosun were a benefactor type owner then absolutely I’m for a new stadium because as I’ve said repeatedly it’s a better environment for fans but that’s a different argument to a financial reason to build one.

Absolutely, once again people imagine we have some sort of corporate market that doesn't exist. I'd love to know how many people in WV1 are actually even actual corporate people and how many just paying for a rather expensive treat.

I guess if you're pushing PSR then there's the argument that bigger capacity that maybe just about pays for itself nonetheless increases revenues while the costs don't count in the PSR or player costs/turnover calculation. So if you're happy to lose money then it can still make sense (see Everton when Usmanov was involved). I don't think that's where Fosun are at though.

 

[Minimalist]

It’s certainly not difficult to get the semi corporate WV1 tickets, still on sale 48 hours before a game. Been in the Billy Wright corporate facilities before, don’t think it’s particularly hard to get them in there either.

Don’t get me wrong of course an increased capacity will increase income and definitely more corporate facilities will (though you obviously have to sell them). I just don’t buy into the rhetoric that we need a new stadium to compete financially with the big boys. Simple maths says the cost v income increase is a very long term plan and one which I think will out run Fosuns time here. If Fosun were a benefactor type owner then absolutely I’m for a new stadium because as I’ve said repeatedly it’s a better environment for fans but that’s a different argument to a financial reason to build one.

Completely agree about the finances of it. A new Steve Bull is hard to make work as bigger seats and removing the arch of it could likely mean a stand that looks much bigger but actually has about the same capacity.
The only counter point is you’d think it would add to the overall value of the club, for if/when Fosun decide to sell. I’ve always thought the fact the club don’t technically actually own the land is a stumbling block to the willingness to invest excessively on the stadium.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Absolutely, once again people imagine we have some sort of corporate market that doesn't exist. I'd love to know how many people in WV1 are actually even actual corporate people and how many just paying for a rather expensive treat.

I guess if you're pushing PSR then there's the argument that bigger capacity that maybe just about pays for itself nonetheless increases revenues while the costs don't count in the PSR or player costs/turnover calculation. So if you're happy to lose money then it can still make sense (see Everton when Usmanov was involved). I don't think that's where Fosun are at though.

I think Fosuns original talk of stadium redevelopment was as a vanity project more than anything. It was a different financial landscape for them and the entire world and they probably liked the idea of a “look what we’ve built” position. However the financial landscape has changed for them and globally since.

I suppose the redevelopment of a ground would add to a sale price as and when they want out but conversely that could also reduce the number of prospective buyers.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I think Fosuns original talk of stadium redevelopment was as a vanity project more than anything. It was a different financial landscape for them and the entire world and they probably liked the idea of a “look what we’ve built” position. However the financial landscape has changed for them and globally since.

I suppose the redevelopment of a ground would add to a sale price as and when they want out but conversely that could also reduce the number of prospective buyers.

Yes, it's all definitely changed. The new seats, the (according to Moxey) impossible job of replacing the screens, the rail seating. Those days seem long ago as the stadium crumbles around us, but is still perfectly functional.

 

[wolvesjoe]

Putting planning permission in and actually doing are completely different things. We had planning applications agreed and never went forward. Villa have shelved there’s, Leicester haven’t gone past the plan stage and could well shelve it looking at their own current financial position and Brighton have gone no further in their plans. As I’ve said before molineux needs development because two stands (one being the Steve Bull that desperately needs a facelift) aren’t fit for purpose now. However anything above 40k would be madness. The idea a new stadium will bring in rafts of additional income when it would take well over a decade to pay for it doesn’t make sense. Our need isn’t financial, it’s due to old facilities in one stand and one being too small.

BRighton cant really expand due to greenbelt restrictions, (although never say never). But they, like Villa and Leicester would really like to expand, which is the main point. They have all done their studies on demographics, popular demand for Premier league football, (which is also filtering down the leagues), and the increased role of bigger stadia in urban regeneration. Its a closed case.

Also when planning stadium development, maximum attendances are a key yardstick on judging both the capacity, but also the design. The more modular design allows more easily for variation in attendances. So, from what we know at present, it would seem somewhere between 42 and 45 thousand would be the range to be looked at for Wolves.

What is particularly frustrating, is that kind of increase, along with improved facilities is what a rebuild of thd Steve Bull and an expansion of the South Bank would bring about. Fosun dont need to build a whole new stadium.

Might be a good idea to stop being a contrarian and get on board the new Molineux Express.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

BRighton cant really expand due to greenbelt restrictions, (although never say never). But they, like Villa and Leicester would really like to expand, which is the main point. They have all done their studies on demographics, popular demand for Premier league football, (which is also filtering down the leagues), and the increased role of bigger stadia in urban regeneration. Its a closed case.

Also when planning stadium development, maximum attendances are a key yardstick on judging both the capacity, but also the design. The more modular design allows more easily for variation in attendances. So, from what we know at present, it would seem somewhere between 42 and 45 thousand would be the range to be looked at for Wolves.

What is particularly frustrating, is that kind of increase, along with improved facilities is what a rebuild of thd Steve Bull and an expansion of the South Bank would bring about. Fosun dont need to build a whole new stadium.

Might be a good idea to stop being a contrarian and get on board the new Molineux Express.

It’s not being contrary because my opinion differs from yours. I know they don’t need to build a whole new stadium it’s literally what I said a few posts up we only have two that aren’t fit for purpose (you could argue, but I won’t that only one of them is genuinely not fit for purpose). I’m merely pointing out WHY it’s probably not an attractive investment for Fosun.

As I’ve previously said if the argument for a new stadium is for increased revenue to challenge the big boys then it’s wrong. If the argument for stand redevelopment due to them not being fit for purpose then I agree, however with the caveat that I don’t think Fosun WILL do it.

I don’t have anywhere near the knowledge to estimate it properly but what’s two new stands going to cost in the current market? £100 million? Maybe more? I just don’t see Fosun doing it.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

I know we've had some fantastic football and success under Fosun's ownership of our great club with our team on the pitch..

If the last owner SM would have stayed here a few years longer the Molineux Stadium would have been fit for it's purpose in the 21st century. With at least the fans not complaining much in a Steve Bull stand and South Bank with great facilities like in this picture would they? Yes I know mixers are going to say but we'd still be in the championship but if Fosun would have come along later we could have had both. Your thoughts of how things could have transpired differently?
View attachment 41750

Completely disagree. The Steve Bull stand being rebuilt was contingent of PL status, which had been lost.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

I get your point but as you say you don’t care, which is because it’s not your money. If they spread the same revenue over additional seating then it’d never pay off or certainly not for decades, which for an investment company ownership won’t be attractive to Fosun.

I see this comment about youth being “locked out” a lot. Maybe it’s because my ST is in the south bank but I don’t see that at all. There’s a huge demographic of 20 somethings in there.

I get that, I’m thinking more actual children. Let them in for next to nothing, get them in young and in 10-15 years they can go be the next cohort on the south bank. Ten years after that they can bring their kids and buy them shirts etc. Just get them in there.

You hit the nail on the head though it’s not my money!

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

Like everyone I think Molineux needs redevelopment because it’s past its sell by date but I don’t buy into this theory that somehow that magically will be millions of additional income. I mean realistically if they’d done it 5 years ago and they’d built a 50,000 stadium, we wouldn’t be filling it because we haven’t got that fan base. It’d go up as a lot of casual fans would come for a bit but in time would dwindle off. Even the absolute glory years of the late 50’s when football was cheap our average attendance was only circa 35,000

Manchester United had similar success to Wolves in the 50's they averaged 35-45k throughout the decade.

By your logic, Old Trafford would be half empty for PL fixtures. It's a different time inhabited by different people.

I'm not suggesting we'd fill 50k every week but I believe we'd sell 90% of that capacity with sensible pricing quite easily as a middling PL team.