Spend v performance; 2020/21 is still a good season

[LW1]

The Athletic in their financial review have us 16th for revenue and 17th for wage bill for 19/20. Even if we have moved up a couple of places for this year, 12th is still outperforming our financial power. Adds some context to this season.

 

[marrs-guitar]

All the accounts for 19/20 are for incomplete seasons so they aren't really much use yet for comparative purposes. Some clubs will have paid out hefty performances bonuses as wages at the end of that season, but would also have gained a nice chunk of prize money.

 

[Hoganstolemywife]

I struggle to understand how we are 17th for wage bill! If that's the case, finishing 7th twice is nothing short of miraculous

 

[Kebab Warrior]

I struggle to understand how we are 17th for wage bill! If that's the case, finishing 7th twice is nothing short of miraculous

It’s bloody marvellous

 

[SA Wolf]

Whatever you want to believe - then believe!

For me, this season has been disappointing, both from an entertainment p.o.v. and also from where we finish in the table. Extenuating circumstances, certainly, but 'a good season' - no.

 

[John de Wolf's hairdryer]

The Athletic in their financial review have us 16th for revenue and 17th for wage bill for 19/20. Even if we have moved up a couple of places for this year, 12th is still outperforming our financial power. Adds some context to this season.

You can't go around adding context when there are pitchforks to be waved around though!

 

[Hoganstolemywife]

Whatever you want to believe - then believe!

For me, this season has been disappointing, both from an entertainment p.o.v. and also from where we finish in the table. Extenuating circumstances, certainly, but 'a good season' - no.

#it's not a case of believing though, really.

If indeed this data is true (which would surprise me, as I can't see it being present), securing the finishes we have done is a little bad mad

 

[Chris H]

#it's not a case of believing though, really.

If indeed this data is true (which would surprise me, as I can't see it being present), securing the finishes we have done is a little bad mad

That’s the wages table, obviously figures are for last season when we finished 7th.

 

[maws]

I’ve said this numerous times, people think we should be finishing top 6 on bottom 6 outlays. Everton pay massive fees and wages yet will probably not make top 6 yet again. They’re now looking at bringing in Bale, on his knows how much a week.

Nuno was a miracle worker last season, that many games with such a small squad and still finished seventh. Until Raul got injured we were 6th ffs. We’ve had a poor season but it’s not a sack the manager type season.

 

[thisisgil]

That's all well and good, but I support a football club.. not a spreadsheet

 

[Deleted member 11332]

The Athletic in their financial review have us 16th for revenue and 17th for wage bill for 19/20. Even if we have moved up a couple of places for this year, 12th is still outperforming our financial power. Adds some context to this season.

Not really relevant, just because we have players on good deals doesnt make them less of a player. Just like paying Danny Welbeck 100k a week doesn't turn him into Raul.
From memory our wages are heavily incentivised, got huge bonuses for promotion for example and I'd assume we would be operating in the same way which would skew this data also.

 

[John de Wolf's hairdryer]

They are not perfect (is anyone?) but we are honestly blessed having both Fosun and Nuno, and those moaning and trying to deny the magnitude of the achievements of both, given the relatively modest financial outlay in modern professional footballing terms, really don't get how lucky we are. Given the dire straits we were in from 1982 through 2016, it's frankly unfathomable to me that some fans seemingly don't appreciate just what we've got right now and think - dangerously in my view - that the mythical grass is going to be magically greener simply with a change of head coach (i.e. what Charlton fans called for when Alan Curbishley was no longer 'good enough' for their inflated sense of importance).

 

[AndyWolves]

Not really relevant, just because we have players on good deals doesnt make them less of a player. Just like paying Danny Welbeck 100k a week doesn't turn him into Raul.
From memory our wages are heavily incentivised, got huge bonuses for promotion for example and I'd assume we would be operating in the same way which would skew this data also.

It's totally relevant, look at the top 6 clubs - is it coincidence they tend to do the best?

 

[Deleted member 11332]

It's totally relevant, look at the top 6 clubs - is it coincidence they tend to do the best?

In that case is saying that because Burnley have a higher wage budget their players and squad is better than ours correct?

Or that for example Lacazette who's on 180k a week is twice as good as 85k Raul Jiminez?

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

A lot of that will be down to the small squad, it makes such a difference.

Not that 7th still isn’t overachieving but I bet the pay our first XI get would be closer to 7th than 17th.

 

[Bawtry Wolf]

I struggle to understand how we are 17th for wage bill! If that's the case, finishing 7th twice is nothing short of miraculous

It’s why we have a small squad, we can pay higher wages for 18 first teamers than we can for 24 first teamers so can therefore get higher quality (supposedly).

 

[whitnash wolf ex.dewsbury]

In that case is saying that because Burnley have a higher wage budget their players and squad is better than ours correct?

Or that for example Lacazette who's on 180k a week is twice as good as 85k Raul Jiminez?

the players were better than ours a short time ago.but there usually is a correlation between money spent and finishing position.
execeptions being ourselves(higher than expected)and everton(lower)
but it`s usually transfer fees that add to money spent

 

[Bawtry Wolf]

Whatever you want to believe - then believe!

For me, this season has been disappointing, both from an entertainment p.o.v. and also from where we finish in the table. Extenuating circumstances, certainly, but 'a good season' - no.

I understand, to an extent, the entertainment statement but questioning a mid table finish is mind blowing. This will be our 3rd best season, points and league position wise in the last 40 years with the top two being the last two seasons. Yes we haven’t done as well as the last two seasons but I don’t think it quite merits the term disappointing, I can give you many seasons that were disappointing.

 

[Deleted member 11332]

the players were better than ours a short time ago.but there usually is a correlation between money spent and finishing position.
execeptions being ourselves(higher than expected)and everton(lower)
but it`s usually transfer fees that add to money spent

Of course but in our case we are the exception that proves the rule I'd say. I don't look at our squad as any less talented than the likes of Palace, Newcastle, Burnley for example.

 

[whitnash wolf ex.dewsbury]

Of course but in our case we are the exception that proves the rule I'd say. I don't look at our squad as any less talented than the likes of Palace, Newcastle, Burnley for example.

but a lot less than man.c. and as I say we are the exception.
if we had the money we could have 24 players on high wages even if nuno likes a small squad(has that changed now?)

 

[Bob Wolf]

A lot of that will be down to the small squad, it makes such a difference.

Not that 7th still isn’t overachieving but I bet the pay our first XI get would be closer to 7th than 17th.

Which was another really good reason to have have a small squad (at the time).

 

[Deleted member 11332]

but a lot less than man.c. and as I say we are the exception.
if we had the money we could have 24 players on high wages even if nuno likes a small squad(has that changed now?)

Not really, I doubt world class footballers who are good enough to start are going to come and sit on the bench for little old wolves, regardless of the money paid to them.

 

[whitnash wolf ex.dewsbury]

Not really, I doubt world class footballers who are good enough to start are going to come and sit on the bench for little old wolves, regardless of the money paid to them.

we don`t need 24 world class players just better than what we have now(IF we had the money)

 

[Chris H]

Not really relevant, just because we have players on good deals doesnt make them less of a player. Just like paying Danny Welbeck 100k a week doesn't turn him into Raul.
From memory our wages are heavily incentivised, got huge bonuses for promotion for example and I'd assume we would be operating in the same way which would skew this data also.

I believe the bonuses still sit within staff costs (which is what the athletic will be using as wages for their analysis).

That's why our promotion seasons figure were said to be so high, the figure included those bonuses.

 

[Hoganstolemywife]

I'm genuinely staggered by theses statistics.

I had thought we were 7th - 10th

I'm certainly a lot more lenient of this season's struggles now

 

[Deleted member 11332]

I believe the bonuses still sit within staff costs (which is what the athletic will be using as wages for their analysis).

That's why our promotion seasons figure were said to be so high, the figure included those bonuses.

I'm unsure if it is personally, how would it be calculated if someone had a goal bonus for example and scored all their goals in the cl or cups, would that count towards this formula or not?

 

[theweave]

A lot of that will be down to the small squad, it makes such a difference.

Not that 7th still isn’t overachieving but I bet the pay our first XI get would be closer to 7th than 17th.

Definitely gone for quality over quantity. Just bit us in the ass due to the short turnaround between seasons

 

[AndyWolves]

In that case is saying that because Burnley have a higher wage budget their players and squad is better than ours correct?

Or that for example Lacazette who's on 180k a week is twice as good as 85k Raul Jiminez?

It's a correlation, not a hard and fast scientific rule with absolutely no exceptions.

And in answer to your questions, no, in both cases

 

[Deleted member 11332]

It's a correlation, not a hard and fast scientific rule with absolutely no exceptions.

And in answer to your questions, no, in both cases

But in our case we are the exception which was kind of my point.

 

[AndyWolves]

But in our case we are the exception which was kind of my point.

It's a pretty big exception though, would you agree?

 

[Deleted member 11332]

It's a pretty big exception though, would you agree?

Not particularly, we get players cheaper due to relationships with their agent along with heavily incentivised contracts and we have less of those players, our players are younger and therefore not at their peak in earning terms.

Someone pointed out our first 11 average would probably be inside the top 10.

 

[AndyWolves]

Not particularly, we get players cheaper due to relationships with their agent along with heavily incentivised contracts and we have less of those players, our players are younger and therefore not at their peak in earning terms.

Someone pointed out our first 11 average would probably be inside the top 10.

I find that an odd view. Considering how far up the league we finished and the amount we spent in wages.

You can see the correlation between league position and wages spent, other teams spent significantly more on wages than we did.

 

[GigaWolf]

Not withstanding our performance to pennies ratio did fosun buy us to watch the club languish in the bottom half of the prem? I suspect not.

So next season put up the cash to make us complete please

 

[Deleted member 11332]

I find that an odd view. Considering how far up the league we finished and the amount we spent in wages.

You can see the correlation between league position and wages spent, other teams spent significantly more on wages than we did.

But we have better players than half those teams so I'd expect us to?

 

[Chris H]

I'm unsure if it is personally, how would it be calculated if someone had a goal bonus for example and scored all their goals in the cl or cups, would that count towards this formula or not?

I’d assume so.

These figures are just extracted from the accounts and is the total of staff costs which includes wages, social security costs (employers NI) and pension.

There’s a note below that states it includes a provision for £1.7m player bonuses not yet paid due to the season still being ongoing at 31 May 2020 which the account are made up to.

You can view them here: -

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/NIo164wRJC2LPU5K_z_RE1UVQX5MpFG5FtMoftsfQIg/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3DD7FAEYK%2F20210505%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20210505T171037Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEIz%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJIMEYCIQDiGBKH15xGluTmlHmPOxdh5ux%2F1R6AmSbww400HgxA8gIhAOT2HaQAGzn5s1WxcgbKqdcPOStTR20K2cW7oD%2BFbQ88KrQDCBUQAxoMNDQ5MjI5MDMyODIyIgw4xoT2Az1s4ox4WXsqkQPKwucilTU6OIrSs0YzNeNl%2B%2F2CQCsbVKdkUHAtfvji30WI52C4%2BmMiMTXkbjrVRDSPWPJJRl9%2FqwUV3tFRZyBcGqMgQvFyy6%2F8yOXc%2F1lQUwz5DH3pAfON31vRDOPcHXUTfyRrt0bwJwUZ5gUQMgC45SF2%2BT39eo6cnE2tfNgp8DcybKESBNSv9el2YBVoKPe2ogTZ%2BW1RMJnHpRJBW7RA5yTDmVdApKtNXNpvAkCTy7niSwtFUFh1Pl%2FePJIhTkWqpLfcxhrWrzYe%2FTQSXRkTSwSzdNUt8l%2B1SF91G%2FUgtc7K3XORJI4n1uB2%2F9yKfOdK2dGP1L3p3ieRTjVjcXYPkTh7hJpHhbl96zL81Sybw5DAgFJKF8vhYRY8THogC8OUES1QrkeqFjkbnWLtxdWvjBlcap4NFgY35z3BQHHZEjtQZKg5D1dYiI2UzbavrbgI8QQr72uxDtTDY%2FbTDbTwaw4oSR1TpmmrYYErfs2bNj2hl5%2B5H9md%2B8fiZClNPLd%2BdB4p2uaOkkKfLXX5xfNaYzD7kcqEBjrqAVa%2FY2Y5pSBLN7yQ569LvjUHKG9RgApSA6awOGjzsgOosLMxMhiQSq96QV1EoBnagfFOhEIRa1heRIodBVnwk4wlZLqSsTer80ygVXnvlx%2FjsL%2BNqleynryPsieYtBmg57N37YcggK%2FG0OdMPzYxiC2ODHyrwHyqGv43eL1N%2Be8wgYJjOJ3phMx8zUO7HWsAdDAEQs4%2F%2FVZIxNyzDK2FtEeOJHqHDNzTnSbsjd%2Fa12Gm5rowRaCTqyvmhug0T%2BDcmqVzNuLGJp6KHn%2FOsvc7k0hgv%2Fy9bmLq51Fr6lU9G6duwE7GX6k4m2fdDg%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22companies_house_document.pdf%22&X-Amz-Signature=db5c042f01721c354f106754b58327692c61af08eeea5fe4477b7bb02f7d7e66

 

[Lycaon]

I think we need to look at Fosun’s strategy, buying young players who have bags of potential on “average” wages (in football terms) developing them over a number of seasons and if it all works out then selling them on at a very healthy profit.
By the very nature of them doing well I would suspect successful league positions would reflect this, both go hand in hand. Other clubs don’t necessarily follow this model hence why they pay huge transfer fees whether they can afford it or not!
Buying success in other words.

 

[Bawtry Wolf]

I think we need to look at Fosun’s strategy, buying young players who have bags of potential on “average” wages (in football terms) developing them over a number of seasons and if it all works out then selling them on at a very healthy profit.
By the very nature of them doing well I would suspect successful league positions would reflect this, both go hand in hand. Other clubs don’t necessarily follow this model hence why they pay huge transfer fees whether they can afford it or not!
Buying success in other words.

Spot on. Fosun have always said they were using a different approach.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I think we need to look at Fosun’s strategy, buying young players who have bags of potential on “average” wages (in football terms) developing them over a number of seasons and if it all works out then selling them on at a very healthy profit.
By the very nature of them doing well I would suspect successful league positions would reflect this, both go hand in hand. Other clubs don’t necessarily follow this model hence why they pay huge transfer fees whether they can afford it or not!
Buying success in other words.

Fosun have owned us for 5 seasons now; how many young players have they bought and then sold on for a very healthy profit? Imv Fosun's model was a gamble and worked for the first 2 Prem seasons because we were amazingly lucky with injuries. I think had we not had the injuries to Jonny and then Jimenez it's possible we would be pushing for 7th again this season. The gamble on a small squad and kids providing the cover has not worked and Nuno has said this will be changed next season.

 

[Lycaon]

Fosun have owned us for 5 seasons now; how many young players have they bought and then sold on for a very healthy profit? Imv Fosun's model was a gamble and worked for the first 2 Prem seasons because we were amazingly lucky with injuries. I think had we not had the injuries to Jonny and then Jimenez it's possible we would be pushing for 7th again this season. The gamble on a small squad and kids providing the cover has not worked and Nuno has said this will be changed next season.

Yes very much a gamble, which to a degree was working, the sale of Jota for a healthy profit was/will be one of many further down the line if they continue this strategy.
You’re quite right though, injuries have scuppered this approach short term and I’m sure they are well aware that a change of direction is required.
I think it’s partly due to naivety and being incredibly lucky that we survived the Europa season fielding pretty much the same players throughout, that chicken has come home to roost!
Even with having top medical staff it wasn’t going to last!

 

[Deleted member yltz11841]

I struggle to understand how we are 17th for wage bill! If that's the case, finishing 7th twice is nothing short of miraculous

We don't have many so called first team players and our squad is considerably smaller than others, hence the wage bill is lower. Next year going off Nuno's recent comments that may not be the case.