Mile End Wanderer
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Kick West Ham out of the prem!! Racism has no place in today’s game. How about that
Racism Alive and Well in the East End
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Very Proud (AKA Still Proud)
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Firstly why do you want me to give you my definition of racism? Are you assuming that I have my own personal definition of racism which would be contrary to the normal definition that society and the law applies? I'd like to know what brought you to the conclusion that I might have my own? Exactly what are you trying to imply here, may I ask?
Secondly why have you assumed I am offended. Is it because you mis-interpreted my ironic tongue-in-cheek post earlier? Would you like me to explain it to you? I'm not offended at all, that is not the point of my posts, so if that is what you've taken from them then I suggest you read them again <long sentence warning here> because you may ironically, and I say may because I'm not jumping to any conclusions myself, have jumped to a conclusion about me without finding out what you needed to know about me before you judged me. But then again I wouldn't want to be wrong and make a judgement call based solely on the two sentences you have posted.
Am intrigued to hear how you feel about my responses.
JuliusCaesar
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He's an idiot. So he'd have refused sign Mo Salah, Mahrez, Sadio Mane and Aubameyang because they were born on the wrong continent?
I'd say that makes him pretty bad at his job.
If he'd said he didn't want to sign any players who may be taken to the African Cup of Nations during their contract, he'd have had a perfectly valid operational objection. But he didn't. He just made a sweeping, negative generalisation about an entire group. That's very definition of prejudice and defending that position is a fool's game. His own words are there to see. His own words.
Personally, I don't care if he loses or keeps his job. He's a private citizen hired by a private company. But his own words are most certainly prejudiced and pretty stupid. Malky MacKay has found a new friend though.
I'd say that makes him pretty bad at his job.
If he'd said he didn't want to sign any players who may be taken to the African Cup of Nations during their contract, he'd have had a perfectly valid operational objection. But he didn't. He just made a sweeping, negative generalisation about an entire group. That's very definition of prejudice and defending that position is a fool's game. His own words are there to see. His own words.
Personally, I don't care if he loses or keeps his job. He's a private citizen hired by a private company. But his own words are most certainly prejudiced and pretty stupid. Malky MacKay has found a new friend though.
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Deleted at own request (WeAreTheWolves)
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Stupid comments but the headline is way OTT to what he actually says in my opinion.
It's lazy stereotyping based on one player, which he backtracks at times, but he also mentions Russians, Italians etc.
It's lazy stereotyping based on one player, which he backtracks at times, but he also mentions Russians, Italians etc.
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Deleted member 3573J
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What I think he's attempting to say is the African players at West Ham have grouped together and cause mayhem (whatever that means) and he doesn't want to add to that group. They probably need a strong manager who can break up the little groups rather than to stop buying players who were born on a particular continent. He even admits that it can happen with English players too but he still can't see what he's said wrong. I've no idea how some people get the title of director as this guy is clearly clueless and can't understand the most basic of things. I mean if he's admitting that it can happen with players from other countries/continents then surely he can see it is an individual problem rather than a collective?
He might not be racist, just thick as ****.
He might not be racist, just thick as ****.
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Lord Neves
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Generalising based on skin colour/race is racism. Edcuate yourselves.
"We want fewer foreign players" - absolutely fine.
"We don't want anymore Africans" - Not fine.
"We want fewer foreign players" - absolutely fine.
"We don't want anymore Africans" - Not fine.
JuliusCaesar
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I agree with this.
I believe it is possible for someone to say an incredibly racist thing without them actually being a gold plated, card carrying racist. Ron Atkinson springs to mind. Said just about the most racist thing you could imagine someone saying, but his actions as a football manager tend to point firmly toward him not being a racist, as do the comments about him from black players who played for him.
It's possible to defend someone and speak to their good character and actions over a long period of time. What I struggle with is people trying to defend what this gimp has actually said. Same with Ron. Is Big Ron a massive racist? I don't think so, personally. Did he deserve to be sacked and absolutely mauled for the very racist thing he said, hell yes.
Very Proud (AKA Still Proud)
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Quick question, would anyone on here regard Bully as a racist?
I thought Africa was a continent ?
Yoh can get white Moroccans and Algerians ? White South Africans ? If he says they dont want any more Africans that would mean they dont want any more Africans . He did not say they dont want any more Black Africans did he so where does the “ racism “ come into it ?
Yoh can get white Moroccans and Algerians ? White South Africans ? If he says they dont want any more Africans that would mean they dont want any more Africans . He did not say they dont want any more Black Africans did he so where does the “ racism “ come into it ?
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German Wolf
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Try re-reading your own posts and the excellent 84, 94, 97, and 124.
Rather a lot of evasive questions but here goes as I have a few minutes.
1. Cos you have strong and conflicting views according to what you wrote above.
2. Yes, due to what you wrote.
3. What you wrote.
4. Not implying anything. You imply things by what you write.
5. Ironic tongue in cheek statements - just banter, yeah, right. That's what they ll say when they realise they screwed up.
6. Nope, I understand your support of this guy. Are you a relative?
You seem rather stressed and defensive about what the racist gentleman has said even going as far as imagining what he may have meant about diversifying to other parts of the world because he screwed up about some allegedly naughty Africans.
Please reflect and move on. I have a patio to fix so won't be coming back on this one.
EDIT: Please reflect and delete that ridiculous post about whether Bully is a racist. That's low, very low.
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Lord Neves
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Holy ****, what am i reading? So racism is confined to black people yeah?
Oh my god wtf !!!
He stated a CONTINENT !!! He Didnt state a RACE. Simple.
Maybe he just wants a more diverse squad, nothing wrong with more diversity eh?
In all honesty the way I see it, if he had said black people and not Africans I would have no problem with him getting both barrels from everyone but this is obviously not about race (African does not equal black, imo racist to think so), it's about culture.
In all honesty the way I see it, if he had said black people and not Africans I would have no problem with him getting both barrels from everyone but this is obviously not about race (African does not equal black, imo racist to think so), it's about culture.
Bingo !
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Lord Neves
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Any need for the 3 exclamation marks? This is meant to be a family board.
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Deleted at own request (WeAreTheWolves)
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I don't know how long he has been in his job, but the Mail's report lists the African players West Ham have signed over the years and I'd say it's more than most.
So, if he has been at West Ham during that spell, there's clearly not an agenda and policy against signing Africans.
I take his comments as we don't want to disrupt the dressing room and that's based on experience with Sakho. Is that wrong? Yes, you shouldn't generalise which is what he is doing. But he makes the same comments about Russians and Italians so it's not specific.
We all hear about how important the togetherness and unity is in a dressing room and he also mentions that as a factor and it's a very important factor.
Paul Lambert wouldn't have signed foreign players if he was at Wolves.
Burnley don't seem to have signed many players outside of Britain whilst Sean Dyche is there.
IMO it's very naive to think they wouldn't express similar concerns to what Tony Henry has said here when it comes to deciding on whether to sign a player.
And again, it's not as if West Ham have not signed African players over the recent years.
maws
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No he's wrote off a whole continent on the back of one or two players as far as I can see? If that's not prejudice then please enlighten me? Why you bring skin colour in I dont know? A race of people can be of different skin colours. He's just said the whole continent which is as mind boggling as can be
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Deleted member 3573J
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Why is the first one absolutely fine? So if he'd have said foreign players are causing mayhem so we want fewer of them in our squad, that would have been fine? Both sentences are as bad as each other.
JuliusCaesar
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If someone placed a job advert that read "Skilled technician required. Please send your CV to b.manning@westham.com. No Irish."
I'm fairly sure that would be called out for what it is.
The fact that the person placing the advert may have had 10 negative experiences with 10 consecutive Irish employees could very well be their rationale for placing such an advert is really neither her nor there. What this guy has done is the same thing. Not entirely sure why some people are so keen to defend him for it or to come up with his reasons for doing it.
So they had problems with Sakho. Sakho is an African. OK, we're not signing any more Africans. If people can't see the absolutely ludicrous nature of such a thought process then there's really not much that can be said.
I'm fairly sure that would be called out for what it is.
The fact that the person placing the advert may have had 10 negative experiences with 10 consecutive Irish employees could very well be their rationale for placing such an advert is really neither her nor there. What this guy has done is the same thing. Not entirely sure why some people are so keen to defend him for it or to come up with his reasons for doing it.
So they had problems with Sakho. Sakho is an African. OK, we're not signing any more Africans. If people can't see the absolutely ludicrous nature of such a thought process then there's really not much that can be said.
maws
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You'd think West Ham fans won't be t pleased either. He's basically said even if they'd had the money to sign Mahrez they wouldn't 
astraltrader
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I think the guy from West Ham should have thought more carefully before issuing such a stupid generalised statement.
I'm not going to quote reply, but a few points in answer to issues that have come up:
1. 'African' is widely used to refer to black Africans ('African-American'), and it's pretty clear that is what he meant in this context. Racists often deliberately use dog whistle terms so they can deny what everyone knows they actually meant, though I'm not really sure that's what he's done here.
2. Even if he was referring to all players from Africa, rather than black Africans, that would still be xenophobic and would still be unacceptable.
3. One of the most disruptive players West Ham have had recently is Payet, who colluded with other French people to get a move away. Interesting that he's seemingly not opposed to signing French players (which would be xenophobic, but not racist).
4. On Lambert and Dyche: this is tricky. I have no doubt there are plenty of managers/chairmen/heads of recruitment who have this sort of attitude, but are far too clever to explicitly say it, whether publicly or otherwise. But there are a whole host of reasons why managers might want a predominantly British/Irish squad. At its least problematic this might take the form of 'I can only speak English, my squads bond better when they're culturally similar, you're never quite so sure what you're getting when you buy from abroad, foreign players might feel lonely if they come here' (i.e. not assuming any negative qualities about foreign players); at its worst this will be based on the kinds of racism seemingly evident here. I strongly suspect Dyche and Lambert are closer to the former than the latter (and tbf Lambert got the best out of Helder Costa and Stoke have just signed a Senegalese player from Turkey). There is no place for the latter whatsoever, and anyone with those views should be kicked out of the game. I suspect the former will become increasingly uncommon, particularly at the higher levels, because the benefits of signing players from abroad are obvious to (almost) everyone.
1. 'African' is widely used to refer to black Africans ('African-American'), and it's pretty clear that is what he meant in this context. Racists often deliberately use dog whistle terms so they can deny what everyone knows they actually meant, though I'm not really sure that's what he's done here.
2. Even if he was referring to all players from Africa, rather than black Africans, that would still be xenophobic and would still be unacceptable.
3. One of the most disruptive players West Ham have had recently is Payet, who colluded with other French people to get a move away. Interesting that he's seemingly not opposed to signing French players (which would be xenophobic, but not racist).
4. On Lambert and Dyche: this is tricky. I have no doubt there are plenty of managers/chairmen/heads of recruitment who have this sort of attitude, but are far too clever to explicitly say it, whether publicly or otherwise. But there are a whole host of reasons why managers might want a predominantly British/Irish squad. At its least problematic this might take the form of 'I can only speak English, my squads bond better when they're culturally similar, you're never quite so sure what you're getting when you buy from abroad, foreign players might feel lonely if they come here' (i.e. not assuming any negative qualities about foreign players); at its worst this will be based on the kinds of racism seemingly evident here. I strongly suspect Dyche and Lambert are closer to the former than the latter (and tbf Lambert got the best out of Helder Costa and Stoke have just signed a Senegalese player from Turkey). There is no place for the latter whatsoever, and anyone with those views should be kicked out of the game. I suspect the former will become increasingly uncommon, particularly at the higher levels, because the benefits of signing players from abroad are obvious to (almost) everyone.
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Loojay
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This thread is a nightmare. Can we just lock it?
Yes it is mind boggling but there is no such thing as the African race, you don't surely believe the whole of Africa has common heredity? That is as mind boggling as his thought process. Yes he has made a business decision based on limited personal experience, more loss to him as he'll be sure to miss out, not sure why anyone should be offended by his stupidity.
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Deleted at own request (WeAreTheWolves)
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Pointless comparing football to any other job as we know it's different.
How does it differ to Paul Lambert not signing foreign players? Or Sean Dyche? Or the countless other managers up and down the country that do the same thing.
IMO, it's clear that in the decision making process, they seem to think foreign players can disrupt the dressing room, the togetherness and that may be right, it may not be.
As we all know, the unity and togetherness of a team can go a long way, which is why your example of a skilled technician isn't right. In that instance you would want the best/most talented person for a job. In football, someone with less talent may fit the dynamics of a squad a lot better and therefore improve the collective. Just look at Leicester winning the league.
I'm not defending Henry, I've said it's wrong to generalise and it's very lazy on his behalf and as you said in your first post it means he's not very good at his job as it's ultimately West Ham who miss out. What I am saying is that his thought process applies to a lot of clubs up and down the country and history suggests he hasn't not signed a player because they're African. (Even in the report, he states the player won't be signed because he isn't good enough)
maws
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Where did I say Africa is a race,?
Guzeppi
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weeeeeeeell.... technically.... all humans have a common African hereditary. Anthropological and Archaeological fact.
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Edgmond Wolf
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Jesus what a thread
Burton Wolf
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Is he African?
Good news everyone, no one can be racist anymore, hooray!
maws
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I actually think in his mind he was, but what he said is prejudiced not outright racist
Go on.. What's he said now?
Guzeppi
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But edgy, you have to admit, I make it educational.
Yes, yes he was. Although political boundaries shifting do put him perilously close to being Asian.
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Lord Neves
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In this circumstances "less foreign" meant needing more homegrown. I worded that bit poorly.
For the record i agree with what you're saying
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TurboTaco91
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You lot are ****ing mental if you think saying they don't want any Africans is not racist. ****ing hell
Guzeppi
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No, you can be racist... but you shouldn't, cause it is scientifically dumb.
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Lord Neves
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15 years of schooling and this was never mentioned to me, I feel like this is something they should at least touch on.. The melton mowbray, england tattoo "god save the queen" bridage might not like it though