Premier Quality?

[Grendel74]

We’ve sold Barry to Leeds and while most are clearly sorry to see him go, I’ve also read some posters claim he isn’t ‘premier quality’ so no room for sentiment. The phrase ‘premier quality’ seems to get used a lot, but I’m wondering what does it actually mean?

How do we know Barry isn’t premier quality if he’s not been given the chance to play in the top league? Exactly what predefined skill set does he need to have?

Last year many of us thought our squad could make the step up to the EPL and do well as it was, presumably because it had enough of this ‘quality’ already. We had a young team with just Neves and Costa costing more than £10M and it was successful. But now some are convinced that we need older players costing, in some cases, multiples of these values or we’re ‘gonna struggle’. Does the transfer blueprint from last year not identify players with premier quality? Or does this elusive attribute only exist with well known and very expensive players? What’s wrong with going after players who are less known, young, cheaper but with the potential to develop like we’ve done in the past?

Patricio and Moutinho have proved themselves on the International stage, but if they struggle this season, do they lack ‘premier quality’?

I wonder whether we’ve become spoiled by the weight of our own expectation to the point we’re inventing nonsense.

Thoughts?

 

[JadeWolf]

I don't think there's anyway of really saying if someone's premier quality or not, there's no like tick list, you just kinda get a feeling from watching them. So I would say Neves, Jota, Boly etc are premier quality, whereas Douglas, Saiss, Bonatini etc, maybe less so. That's not saying they won't do well in the Premier, just that maybe they're not as good as others. I do think towards the end of last season Douglas was a bit of a target for opposition, and that would have got worse in the Premier League. That's not to say Jonny won't be a target though, but I think that was maybe part of Nuno's thinking.

 

[Deleted member 4023]

Quality is quality regardless of age - we have some decent players coming through with the likes of Gibbs White, Giles & John to name but a few.

 

[wolvesaywe]

We just have to trust Nuno and his team as being the best judges on this.

Plus we don't know what their plans are for incoming players.

 

[WolfLing]

There’s no doubt Barry could’ve done a job in The Premier League. He could probably do a job for half the teams in the division.

But we aren’t just looking for someone to do a job. We want the best as quickly as possible.

 

[oldgolded]

When we have been promoted in the past i.e. with Dave Jones and Mick, I think we have all known what to expect, a season of struggle, picking up points where we can, and ultimately scraping survival if we are lucky. The difference this time is that I don't really have a clue what to expect. We could finish 7th or 17th. Certainly makes it a lot more interesting.

 

[NOKASPLACE]

Stephen Ward....

 

[codsallwolves]

Why did no other prem clubs try to sign him then if he was prem quality...??

 

[we8wba]

We need to get use to this tbh

If we aim for top 4 and truely mean it and get close the only players who are that ilk

Neves, Patricio and potentially Moutinho

The rest bar push Jota and Boly will be surplus at some stage or another

 

[Chisels_n_ommers]

We’ve sold Barry to Leeds and while most are clearly sorry to see him go, I’ve also read some posters claim he isn’t ‘premier quality’ so no room for sentiment. The phrase ‘premier quality’ seems to get used a lot, but I’m wondering what does it actually mean?

How do we know Barry isn’t premier quality if he’s not been given the chance to play in the top league? Exactly what predefined skill set does he need to have?

Last year many of us thought our squad could make the step up to the EPL and do well as it was, presumably because it had enough of this ‘quality’ already. We had a young team with just Neves and Costa costing more than £10M and it was successful. But now some are convinced that we need older players costing, in some cases, multiples of these values or we’re ‘gonna struggle’. Does the transfer blueprint from last year not identify players with premier quality? Or does this elusive attribute only exist with well known and very expensive players? What’s wrong with going after players who are less known, young, cheaper but with the potential to develop like we’ve done in the past?

Patricio and Moutinho have proved themselves on the International stage, but if they struggle this season, do they lack ‘premier quality’?

I wonder whether we’ve become spoiled by the weight of our own expectation to the point we’re inventing nonsense.

Thoughts?

They train together so if say Jota is running past Barry in training it would be an indication.
It's like training horses. Michael Stoute doesn't guess which of his horses to run in the Derby He assesses them, pitches them against each other and then enters his best bet.

 

[Grendel74]

Why did no other prem clubs try to sign him then if he was prem quality...??

I take your point but I’m saying we will never really know how well he would have done. I’m just using Douglas as an example though.

I’m also very interested in how this relates to players like Zinchenko. He’s at City and Pep seems happy to keep him there. Yet we have fans who think he’s not good enough? I echo the sentiments that we must trust Nuno, but it appears that a number of us don't trust him and think they know better. I’m curious how these people define premier quality.

 

[Stafford]

Burnley for example are a team full of non premier league quality players.

 

[Tony]

We must be struggling for cash if we sold him to dirty Leeds for 3mil! I can only think others are on their way and the squad needs trimming. If not, shame on Wolves for not giving him the chance to prove himself!

 

[Tojo the grass]

This is very true, we all make assumptions about who will cut the mustard with the big boys but the proof of the pudding is in the eating*
There may be one or two surprises about who is or isn’t good enough.


*only ever put mustard on a Yorkshire pudding and avoid putting metaphors into the mix

 

[Adrian_Monk]

It was nothing to do with 'premier quality' it was down to fitting the system and the ideology.

The most shouted at player in pre-season by Nuno last year was Barry Douglas. I honestly got sick of hearing "BARRY....BARRY!!!" over and over. What Nuno didn't know was he's the best left back we've had for years, but to him he was a guy who didn't have the engine to pin back the opposition when we break and would slow down our attack. What happened in the end was Nuno realised he had different qualities, compromised his system and got a tune out of him.

But that's what he was, a compromise. Doesn't mean he's a bad player, doesn't mean he fell out with Nuno, just was pretty obvious to me he wasn't going to be a long term option for us. At the end of the season it was pretty obvious most of our counter attacking was down the right, Doc for all his faults knew where he had to be and was always a cross field outlet high up the field, and if we lost it he had the pace and stamina to retain our shape and reassemble quickly. BD in the end had to mitigate some of his attacking tendencies because teams were targeting his inability to get back quickly. Not what some fans want to hear because they will remember the assists, goals and brilliant left foot. And so they should, he was brilliant for us. He will get a great reception if and when he comes back to Molineux from me and that very rarely happens with Wolves players! But for Nunos evolution he always looked like he would be one of the first to be upgraded.

 

[Guzeppi]

"Premier Quality"

Reminds me of the old innuendo associated with Rothmans Cigarettes.
They used to have this written on the pack:

King Size
Doubly smooth - plus the extra length

 

[WW1963]

He's not Premier quality in the eyes of the man that matters - Nuno.

Platitudes become empty when in one breath people gush 'In Nuno We Trust' and in the next scratch their heads as he lets a player go that they rate.

 

[Tojo the grass]

It was nothing to do with 'premier quality' it was down to fitting the system and the ideology.

The most shouted at player in pre-season by Nuno last year was Barry Douglas. I honestly got sick of hearing "BARRY....BARRY!!!" over and over. What Nuno didn't know was he's the best left back we've had for years, but to him he was a guy who didn't have the engine to pin back the opposition when we break and would slow down our attack. What happened in the end was Nuno realised he had different qualities, compromised his system and got a tune out of him.

But that's what he was, a compromise. Doesn't mean he's a bad player, doesn't mean he fell out with Nuno, just was pretty obvious to me he wasn't going to be a long term option for us. At the end of the season it was pretty obvious most of our counter attacking was down the right, Doc for all his faults knew where he had to be and was always a cross field outlet high up the field, and if we lost it he had the pace and stamina to retain our shape and reassemble quickly. BD in the end had to mitigate some of his attacking tendencies because teams were targeting his inability to get back quickly. Not what some fans want to hear because they will remember the assists, goals and brilliant left foot. And so they should, he was brilliant for us. He will get a great reception if and when he comes back to Molineux from me and that very rarely happens with Wolves players! But for Nunos evolution he always looked like he would be one of the first to be upgraded.

I agree players that are a good fit for the system is what count , they don’t all have to be world beaters.

 

[Deleted member 5910]

How do we know Barry isn’t premier quality if he’s not been given the chance to play in the top league? Exactly what predefined skill set does he need to have?

We don't know for sure, but it's a reasonably sound logical extrapolation. He struggled at times defensively against the better wingers in the Championship. This, with cover from Willy Boly- who many Wolves fans would consider the best centre back in the division last season. It stands to reason he would struggle even more in the Premier League against markedly better quality. Douglas also offered little going forwards relative to Doherty, which led to our attacks being lopsided, and Jota being not as active in the match relative to Cav / Costa. We can't entertain talk of the top six with players like Bazza in the team.

 

[Wandsworth Wolf]

‘Premier League quality’ - we have that in abundance. The question is how long it takes for each player - and the team - to adjust to the unquie demands English top flight football. It could all click instantly or it might take a while. It’s impossible to tell.

Which brings me to another well used expression: ‘Premier League experience’. Currently our (assumed) starting XI has none - with the exception of Coady’s time at Liverpool.

Does that matter? Does having players with Premier League experience count for anything? Convention wisdom says yes. But I trust Nuno and our squad to rip up the rule book.

 

[JuliusCaesar]

Not just Wolves who decided Barry wasn't Premier League quality. 19 other teams did too.

For the money we got for him, I'd have preferred him as a squad member. But obviously that might not have been what Barry wanted himself.

 

[reanswolf]

It was nothing to do with 'premier quality' it was down to fitting the system and the ideology.

The most shouted at player in pre-season by Nuno last year was Barry Douglas. I honestly got sick of hearing "BARRY....BARRY!!!" over and over. What Nuno didn't know was he's the best left back we've had for years, but to him he was a guy who didn't have the engine to pin back the opposition when we break and would slow down our attack. What happened in the end was Nuno realised he had different qualities, compromised his system and got a tune out of him.

But that's what he was, a compromise. Doesn't mean he's a bad player, doesn't mean he fell out with Nuno, just was pretty obvious to me he wasn't going to be a long term option for us. At the end of the season it was pretty obvious most of our counter attacking was down the right, Doc for all his faults knew where he had to be and was always a cross field outlet high up the field, and if we lost it he had the pace and stamina to retain our shape and reassemble quickly. BD in the end had to mitigate some of his attacking tendencies because teams were targeting his inability to get back quickly. Not what some fans want to hear because they will remember the assists, goals and brilliant left foot. And so they should, he was brilliant for us. He will get a great reception if and when he comes back to Molineux from me and that very rarely happens with Wolves players! But for Nunos evolution he always looked like he would be one of the first to be upgraded.

That's a great post.

 

[Michellis]

I think Douglas played a decent part in getting us promoted.
Great shame to see him regarded as surplus to requirements.
But as said elsewhere, there is no room for sentiment in the modern game.

 

[Contrarian]

We just have to trust Nuno and his team as being the best judges on this.

Not really. The league table is the best judge.

 

[Tring Wolf]

Tough to say really as some players just don’t adapt to the Premier League. Look at Veron. One of the best midfielders in the world at the time, playing in the best side in the Premier League, yet he really struggled. Then on the other side of the coin, you have players who you really wouldn’t think would excel at that level but look as if they have been playing there all their lives (Maguire, Tarkowski, Ben Mee).

Other players work at some clubs (Torres at Liverpool) and don’t at others (Torres at Chelsea).

I guess it’s as much about how those players fit into the system they’re playing as it is pure ability.

 

[Golden Oldie]

Burnley for example are a team full of non premier league quality players.

One of them a gentleman by the name of Vokes ......

 

[Alex Rae The Substitute]

I believe Barry Douglas is Premier League quality, but we’ve seen our first play by Fosun which shows just how ruthless they are and have zero sentimentality. If they believe they can make a profit on a player whilst securing an alternative who is of better or matching ability for less they’ll take it.

Actually, second example if you look at the Afobe deal.

 

[WonderWolf]

It all depends on how one chooses to define “Premier Quality” in this context.

Personally it isn’t about making do and coping for me but more so about the fit and ability to ‘compete’ competently with the requirement to not exist as ‘also rans’…..average teams and players can as we know from experience just deliver enough with effort to succeed for what it is worth.

 

[Grendel74]

@Tring Wolf ... that’s exactly what I was getting at when I started this thread. I think there is way too much emphasis being placed on recognised, ludicrously priced players (who therefore ‘must’ be premier quality) with too little thought given to what they will offer the team and the system. Ryan Bennett, for example, is a player who did exactly what he was supposed to do within our system last season... good tackler, excellent positioning, reasonable distribution, etc, etc... and yet he seems top of many lists of players who ‘just have to be replaced’ - I would speculate because of his palfrey price tag. Whether he performs so well in the upcoming season remains to be seen, but he’s certainly earned the right (more so than Barry in my opinion) to have a go and he is known to offer particular qualities, while a £30M replacement may offer something we don’t want. I guess I’m finding the constant hankering after that record signing by some a little tiring, when an unearthed gem who costs much less and has everything to prove may be far more effective and certainly more satisfying... another Mahrez, Maguire, Costa.

 

[Deleted member 7206]

Personally I thought he got caught out defensively quite often when up against tricky wingers and have seen big Wily rant at him a few times from where i sit. He's been absolutely immense going forward all season. I'm gutted he's leaving but trust Nuno.

 

[nicko69]

One of them a gentleman by the name of Vokes ......

Scored a vital PL quality away goal in Europa League on Thursday. Top-class finish.

 

[GuzzWolf]

I don't think there's anyway of really saying if someone's premier quality or not, there's no like tick list, you just kinda get a feeling from watching them. So I would say Neves, Jota, Boly etc are premier quality, whereas Douglas, Saiss, Bonatini etc, maybe less so. That's not saying they won't do well in the Premier, just that maybe they're not as good as others. I do think towards the end of last season Douglas was a bit of a target for opposition, and that would have got worse in the Premier League. That's not to say Jonny won't be a target though, but I think that was maybe part of Nuno's thinking.

Great words Jade.