Neves and Moutinho - does it still work?

[Skrilla]

To start off, I want to precursor this by saying that what Moutinho has given us over the past fours has been incredible. However, he's very clearly in the twilight of his career, turning 36 in a week, and it's evident that he isn't the same player now. I've felt for a couple of years now that the partnership of Neves and Moutinho very rarely works, because they are too similar in style and the positions they want to occupy on the pitch are the same.

It works fine when we play the top sides and have limited possession to have two sitting holding midfielders to try and retain the ball as much as possible, but as seen tonight, Moutinho just seems like a passenger for most of the game, it nullifies Neves's game at times, and it's almost as if we're playing with a back six with how deep they both want to play.

Sa
Semedo Collins Kilman Jonny
Neves Moutinho
Nunes
Neto Jimenez Guedes​

Against a side that puts ten men behind the ball, it doesn't help to have the front three being so isolated. Nunes tried to support tonight, but at times it felt the only options our forwards had were to go sideways or backwards because there's no movement ahead of them to create passing lanes or space for Neto/Guedes to drive into.

Neves/Moutinho sat in front of the back four, neither moving forward to support the front three and make those runs from deep. Very rarely did Jonny or Semedo overlap in support of Neto/Guedes either. With a player like Neves, you play to his strengths, he wants to sit in front of the two centre backs and dictate the play. He doesn't want to play in those more advanced positions. The problem is, so does Moutinho.

Even in a back five, we seemed at times more attacking than this, because with both Neves and Moutinho sitting deep, the two wing backs were pushing very high up the pitch to support the front three, whereas tonight it felt like only Nunes was supporting that front three and trying to make runs ahead of them. It's a 6-4 formation (Back 4 + Moutinho/Neves) vs. 5-5 formation (Back 3 + Moutinho/Neves). We actually look safer now than we did in a back five. Very easy to defend against, and predictable.

In the 4-2-3-1, with Podence as the #10, we looked far more dangerous and intentional in that last 15 minutes than we did in the first 75. Podence is a player that frustrates me at times, but one thing he does give you is that element of unpredictability, and he's never afraid to take risks to find that final ball. That was the type of football most of us expected from the start of this season, and the only real bright spot of tonight's performance.

While Nunes wasn't on the pitch for the final 15, I think his athleticism gives us the option to play a midfield two in a 4-2-3-1, with Nunes as the box-to-box 8 while Neves continues to sit deep as the 6. We'd be more open, but we'd also have much more in an attacking sense. Nunes has experience playing in a midfield two in Sporting's 3-4-3, and he'd benefit greatly from having more space to drive with the ball, as would Neves with more attacking options ahead of him rather than to the side of him.

Sa
Semedo Collins Kilman RAN
Neves Nunes
Neto Podence Guedes
Kalajdzic
​

With the ball it would look something like below, with Nunes in the role that Taarabt played in Lage's Benfica side as the more advanced pivot, and Neves as the deeper holding midfielder, almost creating a back three at times between Kilman and Collins:

​

(Looks like a midfield three, but Chiquinho is akin to having Podence rather than Moutinho)

Moutinho to me feels like the weak link in this system at the moment, and perhaps Bruno's soft spot, that could cost him. There are other problems of course, but this system of a back six isn't helping our goalscoring problems at all. It's safer, more predictable, and less threatening. It might work when we play against Man City or Liverpool, but it has never worked when the onus is on Wolves to break down a deep block.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Without the ball to counter attack it works fine. With the majority of the ball it isn't a case of "does it still work" it is "did it ever work" and the answer is no.

 

[JOSWolf]

No it doesnt and it is too predictable and slow. Moutinho looks even slower than last season to me. He should not be starting every game and shouldnt have started tonight.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

It works when the opposition fail to put significant pressure on the midfield. The problem is that happens about twice a season because the majority of managers in this league are more competent than Steven Gerrard and Ralf Rangnick who were the exceptions that did this last campaign.

It was obvious as early as the Watford home game in 2018 that we needed another option in the middle. And we've only just about addressed it to some extent. Moutinho should have gone this summer.

 

[Skrilla]

It works when the opposition fail to put significant pressure on the midfield. The problem is that happens about twice a season because the majority of managers in this league are more competent than Steven Gerrard and Ralf Rangnick who were the exceptions that did this last campaign.

It was obvious as early as the Watford home game in 2018 that we needed another option in the middle. And we've only just about addressed it to some extent. Moutinho should have gone this summer.

The problem is, it doesn't feel like we have addressed it, because Moutinho is still playing when Neves is. It feels to me like you start either of them, but never both of them, unless you want to be playing two holding midfielders that will never get forward, i.e. against the top six sides that will make it end-to-end.

Moutinho to me is Lage's soft spot, he doesn't want to drop him.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

The problem is, it doesn't feel like we have addressed it, because Moutinho is still playing when Neves is. It feels to me like you start either of them, but never both of them, unless you want to be playing two holding midfielders that will never get forward, i.e. against the top six sides that will make it end-to-end.

Moutinho to me is Lage's soft spot, he doesn't want to drop him.

Agreed.

Neves - Nunes

Podence

Is the way forward in my opinion.

 

[Halesowen wwfc]

Nope.

I see neves has now pretty much assumed the coady role in the middle of defence, especially when we are in possession which just seems utter madness to me.

Needs to be midfield Of nunes and neves, moutinho to come on later in the games to see out games if needed. We should not be starting with all 3 of them.

 

[Contrarian]

Defensively, it still works brilliantly. Attacking wise, no, it's always been a bit of a shortcoming and now appears worse than ever.

What struck me about last night, was how by default, we appear to play in the same way as the 5 at the back, 3-4-3. What you say is interesting as that's a good point in that the way Neves and Moutinho are playing, gives us effectively 6 at the back. Which is even worse, attack wise. As if Bruno hasn't been able to coach any new tactics into the team, so they drop back into the way they know best. And we all know how well-drilled Nuno got the team playing.

Explains why we are in such a poor position, despite only one team having conceded fewer than us! It's barking mad, really. We've been insipid most of this season, yet still defensively we are as good as anyone. Why isn't that providing the foundation for more positivity going forward? And this isn't a new thing, either. This will be the third season our "Goals For" is comparable only to the relegation candidates. Though it's getting worse every match, considering Bournemouth are looking the weakest team in the league so far, especially defensively.

You might be onto something and I hope Bruno reads it! Though I think it's as much to do with mentality and motivation as tactics, playing safe , negative tactics against relegation fodder must be a morale destroyer.

 

[wwbug]

Its why we have only let in 4 goals in 5 matches , we are boring as **** , and scored twice.
Oh - and in the relegation zone.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

It does still work. But intermittently, like it always has.

It probably doesn't work as much as we need it to, but I feel some people are after a robotic level of consistency which is never gonna happen.

 

[Notsoslimshady]

I think it needs to be either or - primary Neves, with Nunes as CM and a number 10 in front (guessing it would be Pod at this point). We seemed to look better in that set up.

I would agree with the second team mention in OP but with Neto and Guesdes mainly on the other sides

 

[Ewok vs Wolf]

8ve always felt Neves and Moutinho played better with Donck than each other

 

[dewolfman]

Sa
Semedo Collins Kilman Ait-Nouri
Neves Nunes
Podence
Traore Sasa Neto

would go with this next game, traore to spend the whole game whipping in crosses onto Sasa's bonce.

 

[DanishWolf]

It baffles me that after signing Nunes, Moutinho supposedly are still expected to start every game. I surely thought Nunes were to replace him to add more pace and dynamic to our midfield.
Now all we use Nunes for is some crossover between a winger and an attacking midfielder.
He can quite easily play in a midfield 2 and manage to cover both defensively and make forward runs.
Meanwhile both Guedes and Podence would play so well just behind a striker like Sasa.

 

[WolvTown]

You'll see the real team once the window closes, Bruno has to keep player's happy while the window is open. I think he'll make a major team change a week or so after tonight.

 

[MasWolf]

I'm putting this out there, Moutinho shouldn't be starting matches anymore. It seems to me that a lot of the sideways and backwards passing is initiated by him. I get the safety first approach, but it's sooooooooooooooooooooooooo boring and predictable. Not to mention the short corners and the lack of pace when moving the ball around.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

No it doesnt and it is too predictable and slow. Moutinho looks even slower than last season to me. He should not be starting every game and shouldnt have started tonight.

Absolutely this. Moutinho is so well past his best that he now spends much of the game trying to trip opponents then holding his hands up as if in surrender. He offers us very little right now and should be relegated to a squad place. Lage has enough creative, forward thinking players at his disposal surely he could find a formation that works not using Moutinho? It seems his reputation almost guarantees a starting place. I could say similar for Jimenez who now should be nowhere near the first team.

 

[GuzzWolf]

No...It's like Bruno Fernandes and Ronaldo at MU. One wants to be the new king and the old king still hasn't been lost in battle.

 

[BarryM]

It has never worked for a sustained period of time, odd games or odd run of games yes.

When it has worked it has been more because that pairing nullified the opposition at that moment in time, not because that pairing would work week in week out. Too similar.

 

[nomadwolf]

With the way Neves playing his best football since joining, and Nunes settling in (and should have 2 headed goals), maybe a mature Moutinho's reading of the game, is the reason?

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

With the way Neves playing his best football since joining, and Nunes settling in (and should have 2 headed goals), maybe a mature Moutinho's reading of the game, is the reason?

It is not