Food for thought?

[lostwolf]

I worry that a lot of people feel alienated by the D&I discourse / lobby and end up taking positions they otherwise wouldn't take.

For example, it looks to me like some sort of racism (the insidious sort) plays a part here in ensuring black people (not 'BAME': there are negligible numbers of British Asians playing top level football) don't get the same opportunities. It's unclear to what extent the racial variable is relevant or extranious, but it's a factor, no doubt. However, some folk, as I say perhaps alienated by the way these things are discussed and certain groups blamed, almost instinctively jump in with both feet to argue against. As someone else said, the intenet has poisoned debate.

(I would like to know though, before treating this as fact, whether the report cited in the article has been peer reviewed, and if not what the methodology was and what biases the authors may have. Not to invalidate it, just to know what class of evidence we're looking at here.)

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I worry that a lot of people feel alienated by the D&I discourse / lobby and end up taking positions they otherwise wouldn't take.

For example, it looks to me like some sort of racism (the insidious sort) plays a part here in ensuring black people (not 'BAME': there are negligible numbers of British Asians playing top level football) don't get the same opportunities. It's unclear to what extent the racial variable is relevant or extranious, but it's a factor, no doubt. However, some folk, as I say perhaps alienated by the way these things are discussed and certain groups blamed, almost instinctively jump in with both feet to argue against. As someone else said, the intenet has poisoned debate.

(I would like to know though, before treating this as fact, whether the report cited in the article has been peer reviewed, and if not what the methodology was and what biases the authors may have. Not to invalidate it, just to know what class of evidence we're looking at here.)

Absolutely, there are a lot of people who see feminism as an attack on men and anti-racism as an attack on White people. I think @berwickwolf is making the point above that nobody should be lazy and just assume that someone having a go at a Black player, or questionning a report on the progression of Black players into management is a racist, that just pushes everyone into the extremes. I think most of this thread has been conducted in pretty reasonable terms where some people have questioned the data and others have pointed to why those arguments aren't valid. It's produced by an organisation promoting Black players, so there clearly is an agenda, but then again that doesn't invalidate the data either.

 

[berwickwolf]

No one said that.

Actually, the post at the top of the previous page says that

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Absolutely, there are a lot of people who see feminism as an attack on men and anti-racism as an attack on White people. I think @berwickwolf is making the point above that nobody should be lazy and just assume that someone having a go at a Black player, or questionning a report on the progression of Black players into management is a racist, that just pushes everyone into the extremes. I think most of this thread has been conducted in pretty reasonable terms where some people have questioned the data and others have pointed to why those arguments aren't valid. It's produced by an organisation promoting Black players, so there clearly is an agenda, but then again that doesn't invalidate the data either.

It’s a good point Sing but there are levels to this. I consider myself a feminist and anti-racist… however I despise intersectional feminism, critical race theory and cultural Marxism. Sometimes people take very valid arguments to extremes that become worse than the ills they originally sought to cure.
I also despise the polarisation of position the internet causes and the absolute inability of either side to tolerate any sort of opposing viewpoint or engage in healthy debate.
For me, if people can’t brook dissent and can’t win the argument then their position doesn’t stack up and they are hiding something.
There’s some good people on here though that I’ve enjoyed debating with, yourself, SBK, asthmatic and others.

 

[Flump]

Actually, the post at the top of the previous page says that

No it didn't?

The elephant in the room is the R word. I think subconsciously or not there has been some racism on the mix - specifically towards Asian players. The criticism aimed at Hwang has been far too extreme and well over warranted. And the Japanese player kawabe (?) was written off as soon as he was signed.

It said the criticism was far too extreme.

You've invented something to be angry about. No one said thinking 'Hwang is average at best' is racist.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

It’s a good point Sing but there are levels to this. I consider myself a feminist and anti-racist… however I despise intersectional feminism, critical race theory and cultural Marxism. Sometimes people take very valid arguments to extremes that become worse than the ills they originally sought to cure.
I also despise the polarisation of position the internet causes and the absolute inability of either side to tolerate any sort of opposing viewpoint or engage in healthy debate.
For me, if people can’t brook dissent and can’t win the argument then their position doesn’t stack up and they are hiding something.
There’s some good people on here though that I’ve enjoyed debating with, yourself, SBK, asthmatic and others.

Fair enough, I'd best leave those, or we'll definitely end up on the other part of the forum! Agreed it's far too easy to pigeonhole people and assume the worst, I think several posters on here have met somewhere in the middle and ended up with the belief that there are probably some subconscious biases involved here, but that's very unlikely to explain the entire disparity. Quite constructive overall I'd say!

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Nobody said that, it was suggested that Hwang had got harsher criticism because of his race (as in the quoted post). For me though any player who is good will be loved regardless of any characteristics, whereas a poor one will be criticised for any reason beyond being poor, in Semedo's case the fee, in Hwang's case the suggestion he was only bought to sell shirts in Korea.

Are you saying that those who said we bought Hwang to sell shirts in Korea is a racist statement?

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Are you saying that those who said we bought Hwang to sell shirts in Korea is a racist statement?

No.

 

[berwickwolf]

The elephant in the room is the R word. I think subconsciously or not there has been some racism on the mix - specifically towards Asian players. The criticism aimed at Hwang has been far too extreme and well over warranted. And the Japanese player kawabe (?) was written off as soon as he was signed.

I'm not going to continue the discussion, pointless, but the above comment fairly obviously links the third and second sentences. Anyway, we all agree racism is wrong and must be opposed. I'm leaving it there.

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

Vinicius feels 'less like playing' over racist abuse

Brazil and Real Madrid winger Vinicius Jr feels "less and less" like playing football because of the repeated racist abuse he has suffered.

www.bbc.com

Sad.

 

[lostwolf]

Absolutely, there are a lot of people who see feminism as an attack on men and anti-racism as an attack on White people. I think @berwickwolf is making the point above that nobody should be lazy and just assume that someone having a go at a Black player, or questionning a report on the progression of Black players into management is a racist, that just pushes everyone into the extremes. I think most of this thread has been conducted in pretty reasonable terms where some people have questioned the data and others have pointed to why those arguments aren't valid. It's produced by an organisation promoting Black players, so there clearly is an agenda, but then again that doesn't invalidate the data either.

Spot on mate. I think there might be some ways that 'progressive' political/social aims are conducted that themselves alienate people unnecessarily. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that for some that's the perverse intention.

This report seemed pretty fair minded on the surface, and I'm willing to grant that racism is likely a factor, even an important one, in why black people are less successful in football management.

I don't tend to agree with Mutchy's take on some of these issues, insofar as she seems to come down very much on the (currently, so called) 'Leftist' 'liberal' side, but her and the other mods do a fantastic job of ensuring this forum doesn't descend into the horrible kind of discourse we see elsewhere on the internet. All power to them (btw, I'm anti everything horrible, I just think we sometimes avoid important conversations about important things like immigration because of a misplaced fear of offending or being accused of being [insert offense likely to be taken]).

You know what, I reckon if we started most of these debates with a disclaimer like: there might be aspects of our history that are regrettable, most were due to our position in the World not moral inferiority, and working class white people mostly didn't gain much advantage, BUT... then we'd have a kinder, more honest, less defensive, less divisive debate.

 

[lostwolf]

Vinicius feels 'less like playing' over racist abuse

Brazil and Real Madrid winger Vinicius Jr feels "less and less" like playing football because of the repeated racist abuse he has suffered.

www.bbc.com

Sad.

Very sad. He should come to England (well, I mean he shouldn't have to of course, but come on over fella, it's tolerant and progressive here).

Let's celebrate how far we've come. Seriously. We're a different country to the one we were in the 80s and before. I think the lack of celebrating that fact is one of the things, to repeat myself a bit, that alienates some people: we might have improvements to make but we're some of the most 'un-racist' football fans in the World: something to be proud of imo.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Spot on mate. I think there might be some ways that 'progressive' political/social aims are conducted that themselves alienate people unnecessarily. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that for some that's the perverse intention.

This report seemed pretty fair minded on the surface, and I'm willing to grant that racism is likely a factor, even an important one, in why black people are less successful in football management.

I don't tend to agree with Mutchy's take on some of these issues, insofar as she seems to come down very much on the (currently, so called) 'Leftist' 'liberal' side, but her and the other mods do a fantastic job of ensuring this forum doesn't descend into the horrible kind of discourse we see elsewhere on the internet. All power to them (btw, I'm anti everything horrible, I just think we sometimes avoid important conversations about important things like immigration because of a misplaced fear of offending or being accused of being [insert offense likely to be taken]).

You know what, I reckon if we started most of these debates with a disclaimer like: there might be aspects of our history that are regrettable, most were due to our position in the World not moral inferiority, and working class white people mostly didn't gain much advantage, BUT... then we'd have a kinder, more honest, less defensive, less divisive debate.

Yes, I largely agree, I think there have been a pretty wide range of initial opinions on here, but largely people end up agreeing if they listen to each other and keep an open mind. Some as you say, just dig their heels in. Ten years ago it was 'maybe Black players just don't want to become managers', which is why the count of coaching badges is pretty good evidence that's not the case.

She can answer for herself of course (after chuckling at being called a leftist) but I'd say Mutchy's apparently somewhat masochistic placing of these threads in the main forum is in the hope of just such a discourse, where those who imagine or there are no issues to do with race any more (or simply choose to ignore them) have their minds opened a little.

Also maybe I'd get away with saying that although we often congratulate ourselves on being less racist than many other countries, fools like me spent a long time thinking that was just an inevitable progression in the direction of acceptance, whereas in the last decade I'd say in some ways we've gone backwards.

 

[wolfslair]

Are you saying that those who said we bought Hwang to sell shirts in Korea is a racist statement?

Wouldn’t it be a potentially xenophobic remark and not a racist comment?

However…….

For many years players WERE signed for this very reason, so while it is a hurtful comment, it isn’t on laced in a hateful undertone when this practice was and is still being done in the game…..

You pay a premium for some player because of their ability to shift units ONTOP of their playing ability depending on where they are from in the world. Players like Ronaldo, Messi, beckham, pogba, Ronaldinho were all in the class of fantastic players who can move the needle in terms of commercial revenue.

Then there are some Asian players in the 90’s who were bought for cynical reasons to capture the hearts of fans in that market and open up new revenue streams.

So with hwang, it is a bloody harsh statement, but I do bet he shifts a lot of merch being who is and from the country he is from.

 

[Mancwolf56]

No it didn't?



It said the criticism was far too extreme.

You've invented something to be angry about. No one said thinking 'Hwang is average at best' is racist.

I’m confused are you saying the post from Eastern Wolf wasn’t implying the criticism of Asian players, i.e. Channy, didn’t have any racist connotations?

 

[Flump]

I’m confused are you saying the post from Eastern Wolf wasn’t implying the criticism of Asian players, i.e. Channy, didn’t have any racist connotations?

The post said some of the criticism of Hwang was too extreme, likely because of racist elements.

It did not say everyone who criticised him at any point is racist.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

I don't think criticism of Hwang had racist connotations. I just think it's more the fact that players from outside the big leagues or from countries not considered powerhouses in football are consistently underestimated and underrated. It happened to Zlatan Ibrahimovic for years before people in this country woke up to the fact he was actually pretty good. It's happened to a lot of South American players who weren't Brazilian, Argentinian or Uruguayan

 

[Mutchy]

I don't tend to agree with Mutchy's take on some of these issues, insofar as she seems to come down very much on the (currently, so called) 'Leftist' 'liberal' side, but her and the other mods do a fantastic job of ensuring this forum doesn't descend into the horrible kind of discourse we see elsewhere on the internet. All power to them (btw, I'm anti everything horrible, I just think we sometimes avoid important conversations about important things like immigration because of a misplaced fear of offending or being accused of being [insert offense likely to be taken]).

Just going to use this to say I'd REALLY appreciate it if you could all keep up a civil and reasonable approach to the thread today please.
My attentions, and no lack of stress, will be taken up by a trip to Liverpool, with an appointment for brain scans this afternoon.

 

[Tezthewolvesfan]

Just going to use this to say I'd REALLY appreciate it if you could all keep up a civil and reasonable approach to the thread today please.
My attentions, and no lack of stress, will be taken up by a trip to Liverpool, with an appointment for brain scans this afternoon.

Hope all is ok Mutchy......more important things than a football forum.

 

[Thank you Sir Jack]

Just going to use this to say I'd REALLY appreciate it if you could all keep up a civil and reasonable approach to the thread today please.
My attentions, and no lack of stress, will be taken up by a trip to Liverpool, with an appointment for brain scans this afternoon.

Best wishes.

 

[SuperGran]

Just going to use this to say I'd REALLY appreciate it if you could all keep up a civil and reasonable approach to the thread today please.
My attentions, and no lack of stress, will be taken up by a trip to Liverpool, with an appointment for brain scans this afternoon.

Hope it all goes well

Whilst the cats away…

 

[wolfslair]

Just going to use this to say I'd REALLY appreciate it if you could all keep up a civil and reasonable approach to the thread today please.
My attentions, and no lack of stress, will be taken up by a trip to Liverpool, with an appointment for brain scans this afternoon.

Good luck today xxxx

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I don't think criticism of Hwang had racist connotations. I just think it's more the fact that players from outside the big leagues or from countries not considered powerhouses in football are consistently underestimated and underrated. It happened to Zlatan Ibrahimovic for years before people in this country woke up to the fact he was actually pretty good. It's happened to a lot of South American players who weren't Brazilian, Argentinian or Uruguayan

Yes, I think this is a sort of double edged sword that applies in a lot of areas. If there are virtually no South Asian footballers in the league then scouts aren't as likely to be looking for players, but also young South Asian players aren't seeing the role models that tell them they might make it. Nobody is necessarily being racist, but built in biases perpetuate a catch 22.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Just going to use this to say I'd REALLY appreciate it if you could all keep up a civil and reasonable approach to the thread today please.
My attentions, and no lack of stress, will be taken up by a trip to Liverpool, with an appointment for brain scans this afternoon.

Hope that all goes well with your tests.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

Just going to use this to say I'd REALLY appreciate it if you could all keep up a civil and reasonable approach to the thread today please.
My attentions, and no lack of stress, will be taken up by a trip to Liverpool, with an appointment for brain scans this afternoon.

Best wishes, hope all goes well.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Are you saying that those who said we bought Hwang to sell shirts in Korea is a racist statement?

It’s not a racist statement, just a ridiculously stupid one. shirt sales for the club in total don’t cover his annual wage let alone the transfer fee.

 

[QB Wolf]

I’ve read a lot of criticism of Hwang on here some justified some not, I’ve heard criticism of his first touch, his finishing in the early days, debates over his position etc, I don’t remember any references to his race in any of these criticisms.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

I’ve read a lot of criticism of Hwang on here some justified some not, I’ve heard criticism of his first touch, his finishing in the early days, debates over his position etc, I don’t remember any references to his race in any of these criticisms.

Totally agree with this. The only time his nationality has come into it was the ridiculous notion he was signed for marketing purposes

 

[Fifty Niner]

There are far more BAME players playing the game at higher levels nowadays so in time a good percentage might decide to go into management.

Football is a ruthlessly results based business. I very much doubt clubs will adopt positive discrimination to up the numbers.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

There are far more BAME players playing the game at higher levels nowadays so in time a good percentage might decide to go into management.

Football is a ruthlessly results based business. I very much doubt clubs will adopt positive discrimination to up the numbers.

No offense, but have you actually looked at what they found?

These are people who were playing 14-24 years ago, they tried to go into coaching (in so much as they did the qualifications at least) but didn't get jobs. Nobodybis asking for positive discrimination, just that people in positions of power over recruitment consider that maybe they are not actually making the best decisions, but overlooking talent due to their (largely) subconscious biases.

 

[Wonder Boyo]

Just going to use this to say I'd REALLY appreciate it if you could all keep up a civil and reasonable approach to the thread today please.
My attentions, and no lack of stress, will be taken up by a trip to Liverpool, with an appointment for brain scans this afternoon.

Picking up my daughter in Liverpool today to bring her home for the Easter holidays. Will be sending out positive vibes to you as I enter the city. Hope it all goes well for you.

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

Very sad. He should come to England (well, I mean he shouldn't have to of course, but come on over fella, it's tolerant and progressive here).

Let's celebrate how far we've come. Seriously. We're a different country to the one we were in the 80s and before. I think the lack of celebrating that fact is one of the things, to repeat myself a bit, that alienates some people: we might have improvements to make but we're some of the most 'un-racist' football fans in the World: something to be proud of imo.

I agree to some extent but we have also regressed in the past few years, I won’t start the debate of why that is. Racism is pretty common against footballers here now, albeit less so in grounds as they are generally well policed.

I certainly agree we are amongst the best in Europe but there is an element of tallest dwarf here.

I remember being at the Euro SF Wembley, Spain v Italy, with some well hard lads in the row behind saying how much they ‘****ing hate Italians and Spaniards’ - a poor game to choose to attend in the circumstances, was my main thought.

 

[Madmalc]

Why should it be?

The whole point of the article that is food for thought is that as 25% of those earning one of the 47 coaching badges are BAME (according to the article) in the UK then 25% of all the coaches in the Premier and EFL should be BAME.

 

[Madmalc]

Just going to use this to say I'd REALLY appreciate it if you could all keep up a civil and reasonable approach to the thread today please.
My attentions, and no lack of stress, will be taken up by a trip to Liverpool, with an appointment for brain scans this afternoon.

Hope your results are good news.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

I’m at Wolverhampton Sunday league games every week and don’t think Iv seen one Asian player this season.

When I was at Uni when which was in East London, so quite a few Asian lads in the area and studying, I helped run the football team...

There were only a couple of lads that showed up for training, one of which was very good and repeatedly invited to play for the second team and then the first team.

Every week he'd turn up to train and every week he'd say he couldn't play on Wednesday afternoon because he worked in the family business and didn't have the time.

Drunk one night, he eventually told us that his parents wouldn't let him play for the team but were happy to let him train!

There is a cultural thing going on without a doubt, maybe because they have more respect for their parents wishes or that British/European/Caribbean parents aren't as hard on their kids.

I don't think it's as easy a solution as making football more inclusive or accessible. There's far too many black kids playing the game for that to be the reason.

 

[brianm]

It would be nice to see more black assistant coaches, at least. From there enough of them might be good enough to get the nod as a head man.

Honestly, there have been very few English coaches worth a damn for awhile regardless of their race. That's turning at last, but there was a whole generation of not much there... this problem surely extends far beyond England.

Incidentally, the problem seems at least as acute with referees. My understanding is the abuse minority referees get at the lower levels can be so off-putting as to make the job not worth it...

 

[The Clock]

I’m at Wolverhampton Sunday league games every week and don’t think Iv seen one Asian player this season.

Table | Division Two | West Midlands (Regional) League

Table for Division Two in the West Midlands (Regional) League

fulltime.thefa.com

https://www.itv.com/news/central/2017-03-24/community-football-club-punjab-united-celebrate-50th-anniversary

 

[Mutchy]

Happy to announce the scans did find a brain!
Thanks for your help and good wishes.

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

Happy to announce the scans did find a brain!
Thanks for your help and good wishes.

Fantastic news Mutchy. Have a great bank holiday weekend im sure it will be all the sweeter for the news.

 

[Mutchy]

Fantastic news Mutchy. Have a great bank holiday weekend im sure it will be all the sweeter for the news.

No results yet - just that there was actually a brain to scan. Some might have disputed that!
Next will be to find out if there is a problem that might need surgery. I do have an already diagnosed brain condition - the scan was to reassess that.