Food for thought?

[Eastern Wolf]

The elephant in the room is the R word. I think subconsciously or not there has been some racism on the mix - specifically towards Asian players. The criticism aimed at Hwang has been far too extreme and well over warranted. And the Japanese player kawabe (?) was written off as soon as he was signed.

 

[Bill S Preston Esq.]

Why are you commenting on an article you can't be bothered to read then? And forming an opinion on it regardless?
Two black managers out of twenty in the Prem is loads? Eighteen out of twenty white? Does that reflect the numbers of black and white players?

Black players are massively over represented in this country (through merit, we like to think of football as a meritocracy), it's a good thing.

10% of managers being black is low in a country where black people account for 18% of the population (According to government sources).

1 or 2 more would be about right then, which doesn't make for a big problem in my view if we're just talking numbers.

 

[Jefe]

The elephant in the room is the R word. I think subconsciously or not there has been some racism on the mix - specifically towards Asian players. The criticism aimed at Hwang has been far too extreme and well over warranted. And the Japanese player kawabe (?) was written off as soon as he was signed.

Ah yes, because the brutal criticism from Wolves fans at times, aimed at Sa, Kilman, Semedo, Collins, Jonny, MGW, Cunha (at first), Guedes, Fabio and yes, Hwang, can only mean one thing - racism against east Asian people!

 

[Eastern Wolf]

Ah yes, because the brutal criticism from Wolves fans at times, aimed at Sa, Kilman, Semedo, Collins, Jonny, MGW, Cunha (at first), Guedes, Fabio and yes, Hwang, can only mean one thing - racism against east Asian people!

I stand by what I say. All those you mention have received criticism but the volume that Hwang has received and the depth of criticism is way beyond normal.
Granted; Semedo does get poor treatment too. Does his colour have anything to do with some of that?

 

[Jefe]

I stand by what I say. All those you mention have received criticism but the volume that Hwang has received and the depth of criticism is way beyond normal. Granted; Semedo does get poor treatment too. Does his colour have anything to do with some of that?

No. It's just more "racism of the gaps", of which this thread is already well-stocked. Like Hwang, Semedo got extra stick because (this season notwithstanding) he has been largely crap for Wolves, yet continued to be picked. Gary has achieved a minor miracle with the pair of them, that previous, more decorated coaches failed to.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

No. It's just more "racism of the gaps", of which this thread is already well-stocked. Like Hwang, Semedo got extra stick because (this season notwithstanding) he has been largely crap for Wolves, yet continued to be picked. Gary has achieved a minor miracle with the pair of them, that previous, more decorated coaches failed to.

You know what, hang on to your hat, I tend to agree. Semedo was never anywhere near as bad as some said, but the issue was really the fee. Hwang was pretty bad IMO, but the real thing that counted against him was that some people thought he was bought to sell shirts rather than for his quality as a player.

Thing for me is that player recruitment is largely colour blind as there is a judgement of what players actually do on the pitch. Coaching is auch more subtle and complex art, so biases areuch more likely to apply.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

The elephant in the room is the R word. I think subconsciously or not there has been some racism on the mix - specifically towards Asian players. The criticism aimed at Hwang has been far too extreme and well over warranted. And the Japanese player kawabe (?) was written off as soon as he was signed.

Ridiculous. I'd move Hwang on this summer if the money was good. Does saying that mean I'm racist? FFS.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I stand by what I say. All those you mention have received criticism but the volume that Hwang has received and the depth of criticism is way beyond normal.
Granted; Semedo does get poor treatment too. Does his colour have anything to do with some of that?

I'd stop digging a bloody great hole mate?

 

[Flump]

Ridiculous. I'd move Hwang on this summer if the money was good. Does saying that mean I'm racist? FFS.

No, of course it doesn't, there's no need to set up a straw man argument. However, a lot of people have said things that at least sound racially loaded.

This, for example.

And the attack? Well an injury to Jimenez and we are now relying on a Korean rather than and 18 year old.

Do you think they'd have referred to his nationality if we were left with a Brazilian and an 18 year old up front?

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

No, of course it doesn't, there's no need to set up a straw man argument. However, a lot of people have said things that at least sound racially loaded.

This, for example.


Do you think they'd have referred to his nationality if we were left with a Brazilian and an 18 year old up front?

I agree, that's just a crazy thing to say but I bet you had to look hard to find that comment on here as I don't think the Mix is in any way racist at all.

 

[Mutchy]

I agree, that's just a crazy thing to say but I bet you had to look hard to find that comment on here as I don't think the Mix is in any way racist at all.

No, most posters are not racist, but there are instances of racism on here at times, and moderating effort is made to ensure that isn’t a tone that can exist here.

 

[Jefe]

You know what, hang on to your hat, I tend to agree. Semedo was never anywhere near as bad as some said, but the issue was really the fee. Hwang was pretty bad IMO, but the real thing that counted against him was that some people thought he was bought to sell shirts rather than for his quality as a player.

Thing for me is that player recruitment is largely colour blind as there is a judgement of what players actually do on the pitch. Coaching is auch more subtle and complex art, so biases areuch more likely to apply.

Well, stone the crows!

Semedo had qualities that he frustratingly refused to embrace, to the point (alongside his defensive howlers) many ran out of patience - me included. Now he has realised that potential this season, he looks like the first-choice Barca right back as billed. If he'd played like this from the start, we'd have happily swallowed the fee because he would be worth it.

Hwang similar (though not such a big fee). Clearly there was a player in there, but he rarely showed it until recently - thank Gary for playing him a more natural position. At the same time, I do understand the concern about cynical opportunism. You only need to look at the Wolves YouTube video list for that - they crowbar Hwang in every chance they get: Hwang AMA, Park ji-Sun visits Hwang, a special on every Hwang goal (like he's Jimenez or something), Hwang's favourite Korean BBQ, and while you're here - rewatch all of Seol Ki-hyeon's best Wolves goals, for some reason. They're one step away from talking to him about his favourite K-Pop bands.

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

I agree, that's just a crazy thing to say but I bet you had to look hard to find that comment on here as I don't think the Mix is in any way racist at all.

The thing is that the law of averages alone would dictate that there are likely to be some racist, sexist and even those who have engaged in criminally abhorrent conduct on the Mix.

It is what it is and there’s nothing that would ever be posted to give such views away. The majority are not going to fall into those categories though. I think we get too hung up in trying to exonerate or condemn an entire group of people and that is part of the issue.

Generally, people with those views will have to sit on them in a society where outright expression of these views would not be tolerated. But again, the law of averages will see that there will be those amongst this cohort who will hold power, and it is with these people that the barriers to equality begin to form.

 

[WickedWolfie]

No. It's just more "racism of the gaps", of which this thread is already well-stocked. Like Hwang, Semedo got extra stick because (this season notwithstanding) he has been largely crap for Wolves, yet continued to be picked. Gary has achieved a minor miracle with the pair of them, that previous, more decorated coaches failed to.

Your second sentence is the big problem. You might think that Semedo has been largely crap for Wolves. Many of us empathetically disagree.

 

[WickedWolfie]

The thing is that the law of averages alone would dictate that there are likely to be some racist, sexist and even those who have engaged in criminally abhorrent conduct on the Mix.

It is what it is and there’s nothing that would ever be posted to give such views away. The majority are not going to fall into those categories though. I think we get too hung up in trying to exonerate or condemn an entire group of people and that is part of the issue.

Generally, people with those views will have to sit on them in a society where outright expression of these views would not be tolerated. But again, the law of averages will see that there will be those amongst this cohort who will hold power, and it is with these people that the barriers to equality begin to form.

I have often disagreed with your posts but certainly not this one.

It's amazing how being close to someone who could be labelled as BAME serves to open your eyes to things which you might have previously missed....

 

[Jefe]

Your second sentence is the big problem. You might think that Semedo has been largely crap for Wolves. Many of us empathetically disagree.

Depends on your definition, I guess. I'd qualify that by saying "error-prone to the point you get fed up with them". Titus Bramble was far from crap, either - he played nearly 300 Premier League games without playing below the top flight in 13 consecutive seasons, but he was widely maligned because of the volume of concentration lapses that culminated in goals. This is me speaking as someone who played as a defender for decades (obviously at a far lower level). Your making a critical mistake in an otherwise solid performance is a metric by which you are judged - harsh but true.

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

I have often disagreed with your posts but certainly not this one.

It's amazing how being close to someone who could be labelled as BAME serves to open your eyes to things which you might have previously missed....

Well surely you give me a like then

 

[Contrarian]

Thanks for this. Last night I said, not talking necessarily about Paul Ince, that perhaps quite simply black footballers were not the best candidates for the jobs they applied for.

Yet Walter Zenga and Dean Saunders were? Just 2 examples of the many who have the managerial acumen of a potato yet still seem to land relatively top managerial jobs.

Looking at it from the other angle, which is the high number of serial failures and assorted clowns who seem to have no problem getting managerial jobs, where the BAME ex-players appear to struggle to get onto the first rung of the ladder.

Seems there's a lot of helping mates out when it comes to managerial appointments, especially outside of the top leagues. Perhaps the BAME players aren't part of the right old boys networks? That's not the whole of it, but I think that's part of it. Not overt racism, more a case of who you know, not what you know.

 

[rincewind]

Seems there's a lot of helping mates out when it comes to managerial appointments, especially outside of the top leagues. Perhaps the BAME players aren't part of the right old boys networks? That's not the whole of it, but I think that's part of it. Not overt racism, more a case of who you know, not what you know.

That's the case everywhere in all walks of life. How many judges have a black country or geordie accent? How many Christian judges in Saudi Arabia? People prefer people like them. Its not necessarily right and probably not healthy but its human nature.
Having said that there is clearly a lack of black representation in coaching and management, I'm not sure what can be done to right that without disadvantaging another group though. There's also a lack of British managers (of any race) as well, at least at the top level.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I agree, that's just a crazy thing to say but I bet you had to look hard to find that comment on here as I don't think the Mix is in any way racist at all.

Even though today having Hasselbank as England striking coach was described as box ticking?

 

[Madmalc]

My summary of the report is 25% of those who earned their coaching qualifications in 2022 and 2023 are described as BAME by the report.
That means once they've gone through their journeyman years we will have more BAME managers in Footballs upper tiers. Those who passed in 2022 and 2023 are now on the first rung of the coaching/managerial ladder.
I also think there may be more Women managers in the Men's leagues in the future.
In any professional role it takes years to get to the top.
What percentage of those who earn their coaching qualifications eventually make it to the 92 top jobs in the Premiership and EFL? How long does it take?
There are also a staggering 47 football coaching qualifications, so potentially hundreds, if not thousands are 'qualifying' each year.
Then there's the question of how many of those described as BAME in the report are visiting foriegn students who then pursue their careers elsewhere?

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

My summary of the report is 25% of those who earned their coaching qualifications in 2022 and 2023 are described as BAME by the report.
That means once they've gone through their journeyman years we will have more BAME managers in Footballs upper tiers. Those who passed in 2022 and 2023 are now on the first rung of the coaching/managerial ladder.
I also think there may be more Women managers in the Men's leagues in the future.
In any professional role it takes years to get to the top.
What percentage of those who earn their coaching qualifications eventually make it to the 92 top jobs in the Premiership and EFL? How long does it take?
There are also a staggering 47 football coaching qualifications, so potentially hundreds, if not thousands are 'qualifying' each year.
Then there's the question of how many of those described as BAME in the report are visiting foriegn students who then pursue their careers elsewhere?

I think it's 23% of people who held coaching qualifications from 2004-2020, not those who had just passed them. Then there's the fact that the study looked at players who had played 1990-2010, so the argument they haven't had time to make it doesn't really stack up.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

Even though today having Hasselbank as England striking coach was described as box ticking?

Diversity key to Hasselbaink's hiring as England coach, says Southgate

Hasselbaink, who Southgate played with at Middlesbrough, has joined the national team set-up after the departure of Chris Powell. The former Dutch striker will mainly work with England's forwards.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Southgate’s comments here aren’t exactly a glowing reference of JFH’s coaching ability…

Seems pretty clear the fact he is black played a part in him getting the job, according to Southgate.

Southgate also referenced not a ‘huge number’ having the badges/experience (in March 2023)

 

[Flump]

Southgate’s comments here aren’t exactly a glowing reference of JFH’s coaching ability…

Seems pretty clear the fact he is black played a part in him getting the job, according to Southgate.

Which bit did you get that from?
Edit: found it now - the AMP version of the site is almost unusable.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Diversity key to Hasselbaink's hiring as England coach, says Southgate

Hasselbaink, who Southgate played with at Middlesbrough, has joined the national team set-up after the departure of Chris Powell. The former Dutch striker will mainly work with England's forwards.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Southgate’s comments here aren’t exactly a glowing reference of JFH’s coaching ability…

Seems pretty clear the fact he is black played a part in him getting the job, according to Southgate.

Southgate also referenced not a ‘huge number’ having the badges/experience (in March 2023)

It's a fair point. I'm not sure I'd say they weren't a glowing endorsement of Hasselbaink's coaching. He was looking at the potential issues with not having an English coach who could take the job. He's obviously saying that a range of experiences in the coaching team is welcome and that's fair enough. The FA does have a policy of trying to promote Black coaches to combat the stuff in the article though and I guess that creates the danger of people being accused of not being there on merit.

 

[Eastern Wolf]

For those who didn’t know or have forgotten as he’s quite rarely mentioned, Wolves had a BAME coach and then manager way before the term was coined - Sammy Chung.
We were also one of the first teams to have black players in the 70s - Bob Hazel and George Berry.
It may come as a surprise to some but we were one of the first teams to have a Korean player - Seoul KI Heung and a Saudi Arabian player (albeit on loan) Sami Al Jabar.
In recent times we had the Portuguese/African descent - Nuno - of course.
With respect to BAME playera/managers, I would say that Wolves have been quite a pioneering club and something I am proud of.

 

[Madmalc]

Then you have to think about the impact of the percentage of the 92 top flight managers who aren't UK nationals and you start to realise it's not just a UK problem.
In fact our very own GON is held up as a shining example of a minority in the Premier League, (a young English born Coach) so much so he is already being spoken of as a possible future England coach by some journalists.
So it's not just BAME coaches who struggle to get a look in.
Then you have examples of the 'golden boys' multiple capped English internationals, who get given the opportunity to manage and fall well short of expectations. So much so they're either resting/retired or working elsewhere.
Already the expectations of a Football regulator are either starting to look unrealistic or will lead to the Football played at Premier League level becoming a less prominent League in international standings. It's funny once Government and political correctness (what ever the vogue is for the latest generation) gets involved in an industry in the UK it's usually the death knell for that industry.

 

[Hot Fuss]

My approach?
Does it seem reasonable to expect more black managers to have progressed given the number of players passing through.
Well, Errm yes of course. Not rocket science is it?

So I mean this politely, but have you ever stopped to think from a human perspective how it must feel if you are one of those Asian lads who is continually getting the door slammed in their face, at times likely to be due to the colour of their skin?

I don’t follow local Wolverhampton leagues and haven’t for a long time, but certainly in the seventies there was a team called Punjab United.
Some very good players they had too.

My only comments of any worth aren’t anything other than when it comes to fairness there are plenty of people that could line up and justifiably expect more.

I’m at Wolverhampton Sunday league games every week and don’t think Iv seen one Asian player this season.

 

[lets all have a disco]

I’m at Wolverhampton Sunday league games every week and don’t think Iv seen one Asian player this season.

I'm surprised at that.....back in my day of playing Sunday league early 90s till about 2010.. there was quite a few Asian lads and teams who used to play... Assad, Punjab United....some very good players...they wasn't represented as much as other groups but there was always a few.....

Very surprised at none...almost shocked...

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Then you have to think about the impact of the percentage of the 92 top flight managers who aren't UK nationals and you start to realise it's not just a UK problem.
In fact our very own GON is held up as a shining example of a minority in the Premier League, (a young English born Coach) so much so he is already being spoken of as a possible future England coach by some journalists.
So it's not just BAME coaches who struggle to get a look in.
Then you have examples of the 'golden boys' multiple capped English internationals, who get given the opportunity to manage and fall well short of expectations. So much so they're either resting/retired or working elsewhere.
Already the expectations of a Football regulator are either starting to look unrealistic or will lead to the Football played at Premier League level becoming a less prominent League in international standings. It's funny once Government and political correctness (what ever the vogue is for the latest generation) gets involved in an industry in the UK it's usually the death knell for that industry.

Counted for you, I make it 65 of the 92 currently are UK national, that doesn't include Darren Moore who is counted as Jamaican. So I don't think that's really accounting for it either.

List of current Premier League and English Football League managers - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Madmalc]

Counted for you, I make it 65 of the 92 currently are UK national, that doesn't include Darren Moore who is counted as Jamaican. So I don't think that's really accounting for it either.

List of current Premier League and English Football League managers - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

What percentage of the 27 are BAME as according to the lead article it should be 25% or 6 to 7 of them?

 

[Hot Fuss]

I'm surprised at that.....back in my day of playing Sunday league early 90s till about 2010.. there was quite a few Asian lads and teams who used to play... Assad, Punjab United....some very good players...they wasn't represented as much as other groups but there was always a few.....

Very surprised at none...almost shocked...

Yes, including pre season Iv seen 15-20 teams from the Sunday league and not seen one Asian lad.
Assad were going till a few years ago and had a few.
Lots of black lads playing.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

What percentage of the 27 are BAME as according to the lead article it should be 25% or 6 to 7 of them?

Why should it be?

 

[lets all have a disco]

Yes, including pre season Iv seen 15-20 teams from the Sunday league and not seen one Asian lad.
Assad were going till a few years ago and had a few.
Lots of black lads playing.

I can't get over that.... honestly I'm shocked...back in my day there were some really good Asian players, obviously they tended to stick to certain team, obviously playing with mates....I do occasionally pop over barnhurst by me and watch the occasional game but haven't noticed...

There a couple of Asian lads who I speak to in my gym most Sundays who have normally come back from playing...will ask them who they play for....I played , part ran teams on a Sunday for years and honestly I have never seen anything involving Racism at all......seen all sorts go on mind ...good and bad ........

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Just seen our ex head of scouting (and former Norwich sporting director) Stuart Webber’s recent comments. To think some on here don’t think there’s any unconscious bias in football!

 

[berwickwolf]

The elephant in the room is the R word. I think subconsciously or not there has been some racism on the mix - specifically towards Asian players. The criticism aimed at Hwang has been far too extreme and well over warranted. And the Japanese player kawabe (?) was written off as soon as he was signed.

I've been one of those posters who thinks Hwang is mostly terrible and that we should sell him.

But if we could buy Son, that would be fantastic.

If you want to debate the merits or otherwise of a player, cool. But I don't think it is at all justified to say that thinking Hwang is, at best, average, is racist, subconscious or not. I actually think it really damages the anti racist movement to claim that any criticism of a non white player is racist.

Stuart Webber's remarks, however.......

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I've been one of those posters who thinks Hwang is mostly terrible and that we should sell him.

But if we could buy Son, that would be fantastic.

If you want to debate the merits or otherwise of a player, cool. But I don't think it is at all justified to say that thinking Hwang is, at best, average, is racist, subconscious or not. I actually think it really damages the anti racist movement to claim that any criticism of a non white player is racist.

Stuart Webber's remarks, however.......

Who is saying on here that criticising a player is racist? If a player is crap he's crap, no matter what his colour or nationality, and no one should be afraid to voice their opinion. I can't believe in this day and age someone would criticise a player 'because he's black' or 'Asian' or 'Jewish'.

 

[Flump]

If you want to debate the merits or otherwise of a player, cool. But I don't think it is at all justified to say that thinking Hwang is, at best, average, is racist, subconscious or not. I actually think it really damages the anti racist movement to claim that any criticism of a non white player is racist.

No one said that.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Who is saying on here that criticising a player is racist? If a player is crap he's crap, no matter what his colour or nationality, and no one should be afraid to voice their opinion. I can't believe in this day and age someone would criticise a player 'because he's black' or 'Asian' or 'Jewish'.

Nobody said that, it was suggested that Hwang had got harsher criticism because of his race (as in the quoted post). For me though any player who is good will be loved regardless of any characteristics, whereas a poor one will be criticised for any reason beyond being poor, in Semedo's case the fee, in Hwang's case the suggestion he was only bought to sell shirts in Korea.

 

[Flump]

Nobody said that, it was suggested that Hwang had got harsher criticism because of his race (as in the quoted post). For me though any player who is good will be loved regardless of any characteristics, whereas a poor one will be criticised for any reason beyond being poor, in Semedo's case the fee, in Hwang's case the suggestion he was only bought to sell shirts in Korea.

Did you know you get arrested these days if you say Hwang is an average player?