Food for thought?

[SingYourHeartsOut]

The statistic remains the same about white working class boys being lowest achievers when you do it based purely white and black children…….

I said BAME, when the stat is the same even when BAME protected classes are separated into their own groups.

I'm not disputing that White working class boys (although I think the statistics are actually based on free school meals - so you could argue whether that description is accurate) do worst academically. I was just pointing out that if you're discussing academic achievement then there's a big difference between kids with a Black Caribbean heritage and those directly from West Africa. In terms of the UK born players playing 1990-2010 I'd imagine the large majority are of Carribbean heritage.

Where people are of dual or multiple heritage, a large part of the demographic determination is how that person chooses to declare their heritage.

Just saying for the purposes of this study I doubt anyone has declared their own heritage. Someone is just deciding based on known facts about them. So would they classify RAN (just as an example) born (I think) in France with one Algerian parent as Black? I mean I might be wrong, but the genetics mentioned earlier in the thread that explain Jamaican sprinters or Kenyan distance runners probably have little connection to RAN's physiology. It all just gets very complicated!

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Just reading through this and can I say the level of knowledge displayed on this subject is outstanding and I have certainly learnt a great deal. When the Mix is good it is bloody good. Thank you one and all.

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

I'm not disputing that White working class boys (although I think the statistics are actually based on free school meals - so you could argue whether that description is accurate) do worst academically. I was just pointing out that if you're discussing academic achievement then there's a big difference between kids with a Black Caribbean heritage and those directly from West Africa. In terms of the UK born players playing 1990-2010 I'd imagine the large majority are of Carribbean heritage.


Just saying for the purposes of this study I doubt anyone has declared their own heritage. Someone is just deciding based on known facts about them. So would they classify RAN (just as an example) born (I think) in France with one Algerian parent as Black? I mean I might be wrong, but the genetics mentioned earlier in the thread that explain Jamaican sprinters or Kenyan distance runners probably have little connection to RAN's physiology. It all just gets very complicated!

Totally agree, there is a theory that the dominance of Jamaican and African American sprinters is more of a Darwinian (un)natural selection by virtue of those with the ‘best’ physical genes being promulgated in the slave trade. Horrible to even write that but there is a logic there, there aren’t too many African sprinters dominating athletics, and of course Kenyans run at high altitude which will also assist with distance running.

I was being facetious when I mentioned Neto and van de Ven but really their being top of the charts for pace in the multicultural and unrestricted Premier league does kind of prove the point that it is less about skin colour and more about genetic evolution, which is sometimes abhorrent but a relevant factor.

 

[Streathamwolf]

The BBC article states that Nuno is black - curious, never considered him to be black before.

He is of African heritage

 

[The Clock]

Two black managers out of twenty in the Prem is loads? Eighteen out of twenty white? Does that reflect the numbers of black and white players?

I haven’t read the article either and can’t be bothered to read the comments.

• according to the 2021 Census, the total population of England and Wales was 59.6 million, and 81.7% of the population was white
• people from Asian ethnic groups made up the second largest percentage of the population (9.3%), followed by black (4.0%), mixed (2.9%) and other (2.1%) ethnic groups

So instead of a continuous crusade for a black minority ( not just in football) why aren’t people generally looking at the wider community.
Given the proportions mentioned above why does no one ever question why there aren’t more Asian players and Managers?
Reason - doesn’t suit the general woke messaging
Life is generally unfair in all walks of life.
Between countries, religions, sexes , communities.
Unfairness doesn’t discriminate- it’s ubiquitous.
The world is changing and will continue to.

Edit: and this really isn’t a football thread is it?

 

[Mutchy]

I haven’t read the article either and can’t be bothered to read the comments.

• according to the 2021 Census, the total population of England and Wales was 59.6 million, and 81.7% of the population was white
• people from Asian ethnic groups made up the second largest percentage of the population (9.3%), followed by black (4.0%), mixed (2.9%) and other (2.1%) ethnic groups

So instead of a continuous crusade for a black minority ( not just in football) why aren’t people generally looking at the wider community.
Given the proportions mentioned above why does no one ever question why there aren’t more Asian players and Managers?
Reason - doesn’t suit the general woke messaging
Life is generally unfair in all walks of life.
Between countries, religions, sexes , communities.
Unfairness doesn’t discriminate- it’s ubiquitous.
The world is changing and will continue to.

Edit: and this really isn’t a football thread is it?

Its primarily players who go on to be managers. A far higher percentage of players are black. That is not being reflected in managerial positions.
Its not hard to see there's an issue somewhere along the line.

 

[thommo1984]

Reason - doesn’t suit the general woke messaging

Hahahahahahahaha

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I haven’t read the article either and can’t be bothered to read the comments.

• according to the 2021 Census, the total population of England and Wales was 59.6 million, and 81.7% of the population was white
• people from Asian ethnic groups made up the second largest percentage of the population (9.3%), followed by black (4.0%), mixed (2.9%) and other (2.1%) ethnic groups

So instead of a continuous crusade for a black minority ( not just in football) why aren’t people generally looking at the wider community.
Given the proportions mentioned above why does no one ever question why there aren’t more Asian players and Managers?
Reason - doesn’t suit the general woke messaging
Life is generally unfair in all walks of life.
Between countries, religions, sexes , communities.
Unfairness doesn’t discriminate- it’s ubiquitous.
The world is changing and will continue to.

Edit: and this really isn’t a football thread is it?

Well....
You're not the first person to decide they can comment, while refusing to read the report, slightly odd approach I feel. It does speak to the whole 'anti-woke' agenda - asleep and happy about it.

If you had then you'd know it's a question of why Black former players who become coaches don't get jobs. So the national percentages are meaningless. As I said earlier it would be instructive to know why Black people are over-represented as players, which I'm sure is true even if you only looked at UK born players.

If there was a thread about why the Adain community is under-represented in the player population I expect you'd refuse to read in and shout woke too.

Unfairness may well be ubiquitous, is that a reason to just accept it?

 

[SuperGran]

I haven’t read the article either and can’t be bothered to read the comments.

• according to the 2021 Census, the total population of England and Wales was 59.6 million, and 81.7% of the population was white
• people from Asian ethnic groups made up the second largest percentage of the population (9.3%), followed by black (4.0%), mixed (2.9%) and other (2.1%) ethnic groups

So instead of a continuous crusade for a black minority ( not just in football) why aren’t people generally looking at the wider community.
Given the proportions mentioned above why does no one ever question why there aren’t more Asian players and Managers?
Reason - doesn’t suit the general woke messaging
Life is generally unfair in all walks of life.
Between countries, religions, sexes , communities.
Unfairness doesn’t discriminate- it’s ubiquitous.
The world is changing and will continue to.

Edit: and this really isn’t a football thread is it?

It’s about footballers and football managers so it is a thread about football

 

[loppers86]

why does ‘woke’ have such negative connotations?

i’d never heard the term until a couple of years ago.

i’m definitely ‘woke’ as i understand it and pretty proud of it actually…

There should no reason for discrimination based on anything other than behaviour.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Well....
You're not the first person to decide they can comment, while refusing to read the report, slightly odd approach I feel. It does speak to the whole 'anti-woke' agenda - asleep and happy about it.

If you had then you'd know it's a question of why Black former players who become coaches don't get jobs. So the national percentages are meaningless. As I said earlier it would be instructive to know why Black people are over-represented as players, which I'm sure is true even if you only looked at UK born players.

If there was a thread about why the Adain community is under-represented in the player population I expect you'd refuse to read in and shout woke too.

Unfairness may well be ubiquitous, is that a reason to just accept it?

I think the Asian thing is a good point… but it also highlights that not ALL roads lead to ‘racism’. I think (here come the sweeping generalisations, get your pitch forks ready) cricket is maybe more popular in Indian and Pakistani communities and there is potentially more pressure to explore other career paths, particularly medical. I’m not basing this on any data here but I’d be interested to investigate it. But could there also be an innate bias amongst coaches that Asian players don’t make good footballers? Maybe? Could there be other genetic factors, also possible you don’t see many elite Asian sprinters for example. Difficult without having the research to hand.

Could there be an innate bias amongst club boards that’s see black people as good players but not mangers, I’d honestly think so. Could that be a factor into why there isn’t the same over representation of black managers as their is players… possibly yes amongst other factors.

 

[The Clock]

Its primarily players who go on to be managers. A far higher percentage of players are black. That is not being reflected in managerial positions.
Its not hard to see there's an issue somewhere along the line.

Eh?
Did you really write that?

So, explanation please.
Why exactly are a far higher proportion black?

 

[The Clock]

Well....
You're not the first person to decide they can comment, while refusing to read the report, slightly odd approach I feel. It does speak to the whole 'anti-woke' agenda - asleep and happy about it.

If you had then you'd know it's a question of why Black former players who become coaches don't get jobs. So the national percentages are meaningless. As I said earlier it would be instructive to know why Black people are over-represented as players, which I'm sure is true even if you only looked at UK born players.

If there was a thread about why the Adain community is under-represented in the player population I expect you'd refuse to read in and shout woke too.

Unfairness may well be ubiquitous, is that a reason to just accept it?

Ermm
Do you understand how percentages work?
If there were more Asians all the other percentages would be lower.
So question to you - why aren’t there more Asians?

 

[The Clock]

It’s about footballers and football managers so it is a thread about football

It’s about politics, we know it is

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

I haven’t read the article either and can’t be bothered to read the comments.

• according to the 2021 Census, the total population of England and Wales was 59.6 million, and 81.7% of the population was white
• people from Asian ethnic groups made up the second largest percentage of the population (9.3%), followed by black (4.0%), mixed (2.9%) and other (2.1%) ethnic groups

So instead of a continuous crusade for a black minority ( not just in football) why aren’t people generally looking at the wider community.
Given the proportions mentioned above why does no one ever question why there aren’t more Asian players and Managers?
Reason - doesn’t suit the general woke messaging
Life is generally unfair in all walks of life.
Between countries, religions, sexes , communities.
Unfairness doesn’t discriminate- it’s ubiquitous.
The world is changing and will continue to.

Edit: and this really isn’t a football thread is it?

I mean this politely, but have you ever stopped to think from a human perspective how it must feel if you are one of those prospective black managers who is continually getting the door slammed in their face, at times likely to be due to the colour of their skin?

I think it’s hard to do take that perspective on, and then adopt the approach you have taken.

 

[The Clock]

I mean this politely, but have you ever stopped to think from a human perspective how it must feel if you are one of those prospective black managers who is continually getting the door slammed in their face, at times likely to be due to the colour of their skin?

I think it’s hard to do take that perspective on, and then adopt the approach you have taken.

My approach?
Does it seem reasonable to expect more black managers to have progressed given the number of players passing through.
Well, Errm yes of course. Not rocket science is it?

So I mean this politely, but have you ever stopped to think from a human perspective how it must feel if you are one of those Asian lads who is continually getting the door slammed in their face, at times likely to be due to the colour of their skin?

I don’t follow local Wolverhampton leagues and haven’t for a long time, but certainly in the seventies there was a team called Punjab United.
Some very good players they had too.

My only comments of any worth aren’t anything other than when it comes to fairness there are plenty of people that could line up and justifiably expect more.

 

[The Clock]

But in a similar vein:

List of current national association football team managers - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Scroll down to CAF and CONCACAF

 

[mcwolf]

i see Nuno as an great wolves manager, never did i ever consider his skin colour when he was our manager... maybe one day people won't have to speak about skin colour

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Ermm
Do you understand how percentages work?
If there were more Asians all the other percentages would be lower.
So question to you - why aren’t there more Asians?

No idea what point you're making with the first part.

As to the second part, I don't know, start a thread on it by all means. As @Kebab Warrior says, there could well be unconscious bias against Asian (particularly south-Asian) players in the same way as there may well be towards Black managers. I don't see how pointing at one allows anyone to ignore the other one.

 

[Mutchy]

Eh?
Did you really write that?

So, explanation please.
Why exactly are a far higher proportion black?

Yep. I'm allowed crayons now.
The percentage of black players in football in higher than for black people in the population.
The question in this thread is why that isn't carrying forward into managerial positions within that same profession. No more, no less.

 

[The Clock]

And if we leave colour of skin aside, when the premier league was formed there were 17 Managers classed as English, 4 Scottish and one Irish.
Today I think there are six classed as UK
So what about all the up and coming domestic ex players, now Managers who see their hopes have disappeared?
Players in lower leagues who saw opportunities disappear with Bosman.

Times change.
Things change
Lots of people are disadvantaged for all kinds of reasons.

The best candidate should get the job, whoever they are.

 

[The Clock]

Yep. I'm allowed crayons now.
The percentage of black players in football in higher than for black people in the population.
The question in this thread is why that isn't carrying forward into managerial positions within that same profession. No more, no less.

See my Wikipedia attachment

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

And if we leave colour of skin aside, when the premier league was formed there were 17 Managers classed as English, 4 Scottish and one Irish.
Today I think there are six classed as UK
So what about all the up and coming domestic ex players, now Managers who see their hopes have disappeared?
Players in lower leagues who saw opportunities disappear with Bosman.

Times change.
Things change
Lots of people are disadvantaged for all kinds of reasons.

The best candidate should get the job, whoever they are.

The last sentence is the whole point though. Whether that is happening is literally the entire point of the discussion.

That and the previous one as to whether race is a reason that some people are being disadvantaged in this case.

 

[Mutchy]

See my Wikipedia attachment

We're talking about the situation in the UK.

 

[The Clock]

We're talking about the situation in the UK.

Football is a global business
The committees of the various CONCAF and CAF federations are unlikely to be run by old white men
The UK ( notably the Premier League) is a classic case.
Globalisation means players and managers alike can move freely to seek the highest earnings. Inevitably there is fall out as more fish enter the pond.
So as UK black players progressed , they along with non black UK based players faced more competition. It was always going to be difficult, but that is one of the reasons

 

[welshy]

In anything there will always be a majority and a minority. Again, that's life; there's nothing you can do about that?

Indeed.

Being a white straight male myself, I got to watch what I say.

 

[The Clock]

The last sentence is the whole point though. Whether that is happening is literally the entire point of the discussion.

That and the previous one as to whether race is a reason that some people are being disadvantaged in this case.

But that isn’t a discussion because it is clearly a fact

Edit: but not only in the Premier League

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Football is a global business
The committees of the various CONCAF and CAF federations are unlikely to be run by old white men
The UK ( notably the Premier League) is a classic case.
Globalisation means players and managers alike can move freely to seek the highest earnings. Inevitably there is fall out as more fish enter the pond.
So as UK black players progressed , they along with non black UK based players faced more competition. It was always going to be difficult, but that is one of the reasons

See there's definitely a good point in there. PL clubs are often not recruiting managers from ex-PL players, so there's a lot less reason for the profile of the managers to match the profile of the players.

I'd say that explanation is less true as you go down the pyramid though.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

But that isn’t a discussion because it is clearly a fact

What's a fact?

 

[The Clock]

What's a fact?

That there is prejudice

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

That there is prejudice

Well there you go then - I don't think everyone on here believes or acknowledges that, maybe read the thread and see! I don't really think it explains the scale of the disparity either in Asian players or Black managers, but I think it's probably a factor in both.

 

[Bradmore Wolf]

Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank coach for England. Tick

 

[Streathamwolf]

why does ‘woke’ have such negative connotations?

i’d never heard the term until a couple of years ago.

i’m definitely ‘woke’ as i understand it and pretty proud of it actually…

There should no reason for discrimination based on anything other than behaviour.

Well said Loppers, though, despite being woke and proud, I do discriminate against anyone having a go at GON!

 

[Thank you Sir Jack]

Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank coach for England. Tick

I agree with your tick of approval. Tremendous news that Jimmy has been chosen to be a coach. Good luck to him.

 

[SuperGran]

I agree with your tick of approval. Tremendous news that Jimmy has been chosen to be a coach. Good luck to him.

Now now white males get there on merit everyone else is a box ticking exercise

 

[Bradmore Wolf]

Now now white males get there on merit everyone else is a box ticking exercise

Yeh as Jimmy has an excellent track record as a manager and seems ideal for an England position

 

[WickedWolfie]

Yeh as Jimmy has an excellent track record as a manager and seems ideal for an England position

I have no idea how good he is as a coach which is what matters in the England context. He certainly wouldn't be the first person to be a poor manager but a damned good coach.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Yeh as Jimmy has an excellent track record as a manager and seems ideal for an England position

Just in as a striker coach, he was excellent as a striker, not a great record as a club manager though, bit like his boss.

 

[SuperGran]

Yeh as Jimmy has an excellent track record as a manager and seems ideal for an England position

Bit like Gareth then

 

[Mutchy]

There is no room for racism here. The posts may remain, but this has been moderated accordingly.