Food for thought?

[Asthmatic Wolf]

The elephant in the room is football boardrooms being full of white old men who do the hiring and firing.

Precisely - compare to the NFL and NBA, where owners directors and coaching staff are often black

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

Again for clarity I said clubs were run by old white men in my initial post. I never called them racist.

A chasm between harbouring affinity bias as we all do, and pernicious racism

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

So possibly a logical conclusion from the two sets of stats could be, black players are over represented as players due to certain qualities (as reflected in other athletic pursuits) giving them a differentiating advantage. However based on the numbers above they EXACTLY ALIGN as expected with their % of total population. As do white managers I assume? So actually blacks aren’t under represented as managers, just over represented as players, which could be due to ‘non racism’ factors such as genetics and anatomical advantages of certain ethnicities?

I don’t know, not being clever just making the point IT MIGHT NOT BE JUST THAT EVERYONE IS MASSIVELY RACIST

The key determinant in your equation is missing, ie; the number of white former players who become football managers.

Genetics as an explanation for over representation amongst players is borderline eugenics. Underrepresentation of minorities at senior level is endemic in this country in large private organisations. How many of the World Cup winning Argentina team are black?

Finally nobody has said anybody is a ‘massive racist’. This is the tiresome straw man trope which conveniently fits into the ‘well I don’t know what it is, nobody does, but it definitely can’t be the most obvious thing’ (given that race is the key differential their candidacy). Look at the NBA or NFL as a comparator where black ex players are commonly coaches and executives and even owners. They also have black judges far more commonly than over here.

Such passionate ‘there’s nothing to see here’ from unaffected groups (forgive the presumption) always baffle me as there is no real world data for many of the racism deniers to translate, yet this matters more than the voices of those affected. This is an incredibly large part of the overall societal problem.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

The key determinant in your equation is missing, ie; the number of white former players who become football managers.

Genetics as an explanation for over representation amongst players is borderline eugenics. Underrepresentation of minorities at senior level is endemic in this country in large private organisations. How many of the World Cup winning Argentina team are black?

Finally nobody has said anybody is a ‘massive racist’. This is the tiresome straw man trope which conveniently fits into the ‘well I don’t know what it is, nobody does, but it definitely can’t be the most obvious thing’ (given that race is the key differential their candidacy). Look at the NBA or NFL as a comparator where black ex players are commonly coaches and executives and even owners. They also have black judges far more commonly than over here.

Such passionate ‘there’s nothing to see here’ from unaffected groups (forgive the presumption) always baffle me as there is no real world data for many of the racism deniers to translate, yet this matters more than the voices of those affected. This is an incredibly large part of the overall societal problem.

No it isn’t eugenics. Do some basic research. I was wondering when some virtue signalling well meaning person with no understanding of sports science would appear.

Black runners 'have speed genes'

Study of Kenyan athletes reignites controversy over race and sporting prowess.

www.theguardian.com

 

[Kebab Warrior]

The key determinant in your equation is missing, ie; the number of white former players who become football managers.

Genetics as an explanation for over representation amongst players is borderline eugenics. Underrepresentation of minorities at senior level is endemic in this country in large private organisations. How many of the World Cup winning Argentina team are black?

Finally nobody has said anybody is a ‘massive racist’. This is the tiresome straw man trope which conveniently fits into the ‘well I don’t know what it is, nobody does, but it definitely can’t be the most obvious thing’ (given that race is the key differential their candidacy). Look at the NBA or NFL as a comparator where black ex players are commonly coaches and executives and even owners. They also have black judges far more commonly than over here.

Such passionate ‘there’s nothing to see here’ from unaffected groups (forgive the presumption) always baffle me as there is no real world data for many of the racism deniers to translate, yet this matters more than the voices of those affected. This is an incredibly large part of the overall societal problem.

Also just to further pull apart your diatribe of miss-representation:

Yes the very argument put forward is ‘it’s racism’ - ergo the clubs are racist. To present the argument otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

At no point have I said ‘there’s nothing to see here’ - I’ve repeatedly said racism exists within the game and is a factor, I haven’t denied it I’ve simply said blaming it wholesale is reductive and an oversimplification.

The fact you claim a strawman then completely strawman literally your entire post is an embarrassment.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

The key determinant in your equation is missing, ie; the number of white former players who become football managers.

Genetics as an explanation for over representation amongst players is borderline eugenics. Underrepresentation of minorities at senior level is endemic in this country in large private organisations. How many of the World Cup winning Argentina team are black?

Finally nobody has said anybody is a ‘massive racist’. This is the tiresome straw man trope which conveniently fits into the ‘well I don’t know what it is, nobody does, but it definitely can’t be the most obvious thing’ (given that race is the key differential their candidacy). Look at the NBA or NFL as a comparator where black ex players are commonly coaches and executives and even owners. They also have black judges far more commonly than over here.

Such passionate ‘there’s nothing to see here’ from unaffected groups (forgive the presumption) always baffle me as there is no real world data for many of the racism deniers to translate, yet this matters more than the voices of those affected. This is an incredibly large part of the overall societal problem.

A recent editorial update from The Washington Post on Argentina and its Workd cup winning team:

‘Due to an editing error, an earlier version of this piece noted that roughly one percent of the Argentinian population was Black according to a 2010 government released census. While the number of Black people cited was accurate, the percentage was actually far less than one percent and the piece has been amended to state that.’

So less than 1% - how many black players do you expect them to have? Is that due to racism?

If you think that invalidates the point around genetics and physical advantages of certain groups you either don’t understand statistics, don’t understand genetics or quite possibly both.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Precisely - compare to the NFL and NBA, where owners directors and coaching staff are often black

Yes definitely no non white owners in the PL

 

[Kebab Warrior]

The key determinant in your equation is missing, ie; the number of white former players who become football managers.

Genetics as an explanation for over representation amongst players is borderline eugenics. Underrepresentation of minorities at senior level is endemic in this country in large private organisations. How many of the World Cup winning Argentina team are black?

Finally nobody has said anybody is a ‘massive racist’. This is the tiresome straw man trope which conveniently fits into the ‘well I don’t know what it is, nobody does, but it definitely can’t be the most obvious thing’ (given that race is the key differential their candidacy). Look at the NBA or NFL as a comparator where black ex players are commonly coaches and executives and even owners. They also have black judges far more commonly than over here.

Such passionate ‘there’s nothing to see here’ from unaffected groups (forgive the presumption) always baffle me as there is no real world data for many of the racism deniers to translate, yet this matters more than the voices of those affected. This is an incredibly large part of the overall societal problem.

The US has 14.4% black population to the UKs 4%. I’m sure there’s no link to them having a higher proportion of black Judges or NFL or NBA coaches.

Just remind me again about the NFL (less than 20% minority coaches vs 53% black player contingent) and NBA (73% black players / 50% black coaches) demographics - I’m sure it’s a suitable like for like comparison with football in England.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Yes definitely no non white owners in the PL

Particularly at clubs with W in their name....

 

[WickedWolfie]

The US has 14.4% black population to the UKs 4%. I’m sure there’s no link to them having a higher proportion of black Judges or NFL or NBA coaches.

Just remind me again about the NFL and NBA demographics - I’m sure it’s a suitable like for like comparison with football in England.

Of course the vast majority of NFL and NBA players are American. The PL (and indeed EFL) is rather different

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Yes definitely no non white owners in the PL

One thing I suspect we might all manage to agree on though (maybe) is that it's not only white people who have racial biases!

 

[Kebab Warrior]

One thing I suspect we might all manage to agree on though (maybe) is that it's not only white people who have racial biases!

This is very true Sing I’ll give you that

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Genetics as an explanation for over representation amongst players is borderline eugenics.

Numerous studies in the field of physiology have highlighted morphological (Malina, 1988; Nelson et al., 1995), muscular (Ama et al., 1986), enzymatic (Saltin et al., 1995) and mechanical (Fukashiro et al., 2002) differences between Afro-Caribbean and Caucasian populations. Specifically, it has been demonstrated that Afro-Caribbean sedentary men and athletes have a higher percentage of fast twitch fibers and muscle stiffness than their Caucasian counterparts (Ama et al., 1986; Fukashiro et al., 2002). Furthermore, it has been demonstrated that vertical jump height and maximal powered are positively correlated with the percentage of fast fibres (Glenmark et al., 1994) and muscle-tendon stiffness (Driss et al., 2012; Fukashiro et al., 2002).

Definitely no genetics at play with black over representation in certain sports. No correlation with sprinting, jumping, explosiveness etc. it’s not why particular ethnicities of black people are so cruelly under represented at the olympics in sprinting, or in the NBA, NFL, boxing etc. I mean will Jamaica ever produce a decent sprinter… jeez.

It’s not all good sports news though… as a black person I’d be much more likely to get sickle cell anemia. Sadly genetic evolution doesn’t give a **** about social justice.

Black people are at a much higher risk for mutations in the hemoglobin gene responsible for SCA. Researchers believe the reason lies in how this condition has evolved. Over time, sickle cell conditions have evolved to protect against malaria, a parasitic infection spread by mosquito bites.

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

No it isn’t eugenics. Do some basic research. I was wondering when some virtue signalling well meaning person with no understanding of sports science would appear.

Black runners 'have speed genes'

Study of Kenyan athletes reignites controversy over race and sporting prowess.

www.theguardian.com

Hahahahhahahaa. A great, reasoned response. If you want to make personal comments DM me and I will respond.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Hahahahhahahaa. A great, reasoned response. If you want to make personal comments DM me and I will respond.

Is that the forum equivalent of ‘I’ll see you outside mate?’

Sorry if we’re getting into the ‘slip into my DM’s’ stage, I’ll pass sorry.

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

Yes definitely no non white owners in the PL

The word is ‘black’. ‘Black’. Are there black owners in the PL? ‘Black’.

Look at the triggered, emotional and attacking response to the post. It’s a quite beautiful illustration of the larger problem.

And don’t comment on my personal understanding of these matters, you would be quite embarrassed if you were more cognisant.

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

The US has 14.4% black population to the UKs 4%. I’m sure there’s no link to them having a higher proportion of black Judges or NFL or NBA coaches.

Just remind me again about the NFL (less than 20% minority coaches vs 53% black player contingent) and NBA (73% black players / 50% black coaches) demographics - I’m sure it’s a suitable like for like comparison with football in England.

Again, the determining factor is ‘ex players’.

That’s, ‘ex players’.

I can elaborate more if you like.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

The word is ‘black’. ‘Black’. Are there black owners in the PL? ‘Black’.

Look at the triggered, emotional and attacking response to the post. It’s a quite beautiful illustration of the larger problem.

And don’t comment on my personal understanding of matters, you would be quite embarrassed if you were more cognisant.

Well for the avoidance of doubt for the majority of the discussion the term used was BAME not black.

I may not be cognisant but I have at least read the thread.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

The distance by which you have missed the point is almost admirable.

Ad hominem after ad hominem.

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

Numerous studies in the field of physiology have highlighted morphological (Malina, 1988; Nelson et al., 1995), muscular (Ama et al., 1986), enzymatic (Saltin et al., 1995) and mechanical (Fukashiro et al., 2002) differences between Afro-Caribbean and Caucasian populations. Specifically, it has been demonstrated that Afro-Caribbean sedentary men and athletes have a higher percentage of fast twitch fibers and muscle stiffness than their Caucasian counterparts (Ama et al., 1986; Fukashiro et al., 2002). Furthermore, it has been demonstrated that vertical jump height and maximal powered are positively correlated with the percentage of fast fibres (Glenmark et al., 1994) and muscle-tendon stiffness (Driss et al., 2012; Fukashiro et al., 2002).

Definitely no genetics at play with black over representation in certain sports. No correlation with sprinting, jumping, explosiveness etc. it’s not why particular ethnicities of black people are so cruelly under represented at the olympics in sprinting, or in the NBA, NFL, boxing etc. I mean will Jamaica ever produce a decent sprinter… jeez.

It’s not all good sports news though… as a black person I’d be much more likely to get sickle cell anemia. Sadly genetic evolution doesn’t give a **** about social justice.

Black people are at a much higher risk for mutations in the hemoglobin gene responsible for SCA. Researchers believe the reason lies in how this condition has evolved. Over time, sickle cell conditions have evolved to protect against malaria, a parasitic infection spread by mosquito bites.

In an attempt to be constructive I will explain my point further. The issue is a stage further, as I keep saying, the disparity between ex players in management.

The suggestion that there is a ‘correction’ when entering the more cerebral world of management (and granted you haven’t gone as far as that but it is implied from the normalisation of this stat by your referencing the national demographic) is borderline eugenics.

More concerning is your very triggered reaction and attempted personal diatribe (projecting much?) in response to a post highlighting a view different to yours.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

In an attempt to be constructive I will explain my point further. The issue is a stage further, as I keep saying, the disparity between ex players in management.

The suggestion that there is a ‘correction’ when entering the more cerebral world of management (and granted you haven’t gone as far as that but it is implied from the normalisation of this stat by you by referencing the national demographic) is borderline eugenics.

More concerning is your very triggered reaction and attempted personal diatribe (projecting much?) in response to a post highlighting a view different to yours.

At no point have I suggested a ‘correction’ only that black players are over represented as a % of population and black managers represented in line with % of population.

No one has suggested anything with regard to ‘the more cerebral world of management’ - I’m sorry you claim projection. Yet you post that?

As for me being ‘triggered’ I’m sorry that’s just woke buzzwords. If you aren’t able to engage in debate, or face forceful counter arguments, potentially an internet message board isn’t the right place for you?

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

Numerous studies in the field of physiology have highlighted morphological (Malina, 1988; Nelson et al., 1995), muscular (Ama et al., 1986), enzymatic (Saltin et al., 1995) and mechanical (Fukashiro et al., 2002) differences between Afro-Caribbean and Caucasian populations. Specifically, it has been demonstrated that Afro-Caribbean sedentary men and athletes have a higher percentage of fast twitch fibers and muscle stiffness than their Caucasian counterparts (Ama et al., 1986; Fukashiro et al., 2002). Furthermore, it has been demonstrated that vertical jump height and maximal powered are positively correlated with the percentage of fast fibres (Glenmark et al., 1994) and muscle-tendon stiffness (Driss et al., 2012; Fukashiro et al., 2002).

Definitely no genetics at play with black over representation in certain sports. No correlation with sprinting, jumping, explosiveness etc. it’s not why particular ethnicities of black people are so cruelly under represented at the olympics in sprinting, or in the NBA, NFL, boxing etc. I mean will Jamaica ever produce a decent sprinter… jeez.

It’s not all good sports news though… as a black person I’d be much more likely to get sickle cell anemia. Sadly genetic evolution doesn’t give a **** about social justice.

Black people are at a much higher risk for mutations in the hemoglobin gene responsible for SCA. Researchers believe the reason lies in how this condition has evolved. Over time, sickle cell conditions have evolved to protect against malaria, a parasitic infection spread by mosquito bites.

Sickle cell a key part in the destruction of many European royal dynasties.

Also you may be interested to know that the quickest player in the Prem this season is Mickey van de Ven, and our own Pedro Neto is in the top 3. Which is a real against the odds story given their genetic disadvantage.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

In an attempt to be constructive I will explain my point further. The issue is a stage further, as I keep saying, the disparity between ex players in management.

The suggestion that there is a ‘correction’ when entering the more cerebral world of management (and granted you haven’t gone as far as that but it is implied from the normalisation of this stat by you by referencing the national demographic) is borderline eugenics.

More concerning is your very triggered reaction and attempted personal diatribe (projecting much?) in response to a post highlighting a view different to yours.

That said it is late and I’m going to bed. Thank you for taking part, I’ve enjoyed the debate! Good evening!

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Sickle cell a key part in the destruction of the European royal dynasties.

Also you may be interested to know that the quickest player in the Prem this season is Mickey van de Ven, and our own Pedro Neto is in the top 3. Which is a real against the odds story given their genetic disadvantage.

what does your point about sickle cell prove? I didn’t say it was exclusive to black people just genetically more common!
Neither did I say white peoples can’t be fast!

Picking specific individuals as a counter to scientifically proven trends is meaningless.

Dutch people are taller on average than English people! FALSE! TYSON FURY IS VERY TALL!

See it doesn’t work does it?

Anyway thanks for the debate. Wishing you a good evening.

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

At no point have I suggested a ‘correction’ only that black players are over represented as a % of population and black managers represented in line with % of population.

No one has suggested anything with regard to ‘the more cerebral world of management’ - I’m sorry you claim projection. Yet you post that?

As for me being ‘triggered’ I’m sorry that’s just woke buzzwords. If you aren’t able to engage in debate, or face forceful counter arguments, potentially an internet message board isn’t the right place for you?

If you re read my message I think it is clear and concise on the point I am making and careful to avoid unfair attributions.

I am comfortable with ‘forceful debate’ thanks I just prefer not to be personal, or only personal in a personal forum if needs be. But to have 8 messages in response to a post is indicative of a ‘triggering’.

Woke, woke, woke, yes everything is woke.

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

what does your point about sickle cell prove? I didn’t say it was exclusive to black people just genetically more common!
Neither did I say white peoples can’t be fast!

Picking specific individuals as a counter to scientifically proven trends is meaningless.

Dutch people are taller on average than English people! FALSE! TYSON FURY IS VERY TALL!

See it doesn’t work does it?

Anyway thanks for the debate. Wishing you a good evening.

It was just an interesting point that’s all.

No need to be triggered .

Have a good evening too

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Sickle cell a key part in the destruction of the European royal dynasties.

Also you may be interested to know that the quickest player in the Prem this season is Mickey van de Ven, and our own Pedro Neto is in the top 3. Which is a real against the odds story given their genetic disadvantage.

Are you confusing sickle cell and haemophilia, or is that just my ignorance?

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

Sorry if we’re getting into the ‘slip into my DM’s’ stage, I’ll pass sorry.

This means something very different btw, you’re right to pass

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

Are you confusing sickle cell and haemophilia, or is that just my ignorance?

If my memory serves me correctly, a member of the Portuguese royal family had ‘relations’ with a colonial African which introduced sickle cell into aspects of the dynastic European monarchies.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

If my memory serves me correctly, a member of the Portuguese royal family had ‘relations’ with a colonial African which introduced sickle cell into aspects of the dynastic European monarchies.

New one to me. I know there's a something that Queen Charlotte was descended from a Portuguese king who possibly had a child with someone who may have been a Moor and so on. Don't know anything about that relating to sickle cell though. Haemophilia went through the royal families via an original mutation of Queen Victoria I think and then of course the Russians, Prussians because they all inter-married.

Anyway way off topic!

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

New one to me. I know there's a something that Queen Charlotte was descended from a Portuguese king who possibly had a child with someone who may have been a Moor and so on. Don't know anything about that relating to sickle cell though. Haemophilia went through the royal families via an original mutation of Queen Victoria I think and then of course the Russians, Prussians because they all inter-married.

Anyway way off topic!

Yes I think it was post Catherine of Braganza time so that’s not the route, but can’t remember exactly will have to look back. it’s not uncommon in Portugal. Yes not to be confused with the haemophilia which eg Alexis had, this was some time before iirc (although it may be linked, I’m no hematologist..!).

I often wonder if the likes of Jefferson etc were more or less supremacist based on their choice of relations. It’s an interesting consideration.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

The argument over what percentage of the population is black so what percentage should be expected to be coaches is a red herring. The real issue is that why, in an industry where 43% of the playing staff are black, that only translates to about 4% taking the step up to league level coaching.

 

[wolfslair]

Boss Hogg above raises the point above about education. This is a whole new area of discussion but I'm sure I've seen over the years that black kids are disadvantaged at school/attend poor schools which in turn leads them to leave school poorly educated and with few qualifications. Huge generalisation I know but it goes someway to explain why, whilst they may be great athletes unless they've done some further education during their playing career they could well be severely hampered when it comes to applying for positions, filling in CVs or impressing at interview?

Currently, statistically the demographic who leave school with lowest attainment is white working class boys…….

So in this one, BAME students attain far better.

Lots was done in the late 90’s and early 2000’s with funding and programmes for BAME children, that was not afforded to white children coming from similar or even worse family/socio-economic status.

 

[wolfslair]

There is also one theory people haven’t considered which may also be part of the lower number of black coaches.

When the kids go through academies, they have done courses and badges as part of their education programme to set them up as coaches so they don’t leave the game without professional qualifications and to also help see if their skills/experiences might help others.

So if more non BAME kids don’t make it, that means yearly more none BAME candidates enter the market earlier and start their careers.

That doesn’t explain the ex-pro question, but it could explain about the ratio when looking at coaches and managers who never made it compared to the ones that did

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

There is also one theory people haven’t considered which may also be part of the lower number of black coaches.

When the kids go through academies, they have done courses and badges as part of their education programme to set them up as coaches so they don’t leave the game without professional qualifications and to also help see if their skills/experiences might help others.

So if more non BAME kids don’t make it, that means yearly more none BAME candidates enter the market earlier and start their careers.

That doesn’t explain the ex-pro question, but it could explain about the ratio when looking at coaches and managers who never made it compared to the ones that did

The thing is the same programmes you mention above in schools been in place for years in football too. I work closely with black footballers on aspects of this. But that still this has not resulted in better outcomes and sort of contradicts the earlier point.

The reality is that there is no singular reason as KW says, some coaches won’t be good enough, whilst others will lack other skills. But the reality is there is a huge spectrum when it comes to racial obstruction ranging from unintentional but unchecked affinity bias to actual racism, all of which will exist in the conversation we are having.

The key thing is not to seek to change human nature, we all have bias, but to have sufficiently robust systems to ensure these biases don’t influence our decision making processes. We can argue til we are blue in the face (no pun intended) but the litmus test for racial equality is the cold hard statistic on representation and we need to accept that where people of colour are massively underrepresented despite forming a strong part of a candidate pool, it is likely to be that very colour which is a significant reason for that.

 

[wolfslair]

The thing is the same programmes you mention above in schools been in place for years in football too. I work closely with black footballers on aspects of this. But that still this has not resulted in better outcomes don’t sort of contradicts the earlier point.

The reality is that there is no singular reason as KW says, some coaches won’t be good enough, whilst others will lack other skills. But the reality is there is a huge spectrum when it comes to racial obstruction ranging from unintentional but unchecked affinity bias to actual racism, all of which will exist in the conversation we are having.

The key thing is not to seek to change human nature, we all have bias, but to have sufficiently robust systems to ensure these biases don’t influence our decision making processes. We can argue til we are blue in the face (no pun intended) but the litmus test for racial equality is the cold hard statistic on representation and we neee to accept that where people of colour are massively underrepresented despite forming a strong part of a candidate pool, it is likely to be that very colour which is a significant reason for that.

I agree, there are bias whether conscious or unconscious in the game still and that is ****…… the numbers don’t lie!

I believe the stats on this far more than the one into potential racism and bias of referees when giving cards on the pitch.

As since I left football, the amount of training I have had to do on it is significantly greater and compared to peers still in the game, their exposure to training is frankly laughable…… so the idea of bias still being in the sport is very very believable.

I simply thought there might be at least an innocent reason that reduced the number.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Currently, statistically the demographic who leave school with lowest attainment is white working class boys…….

So in this one, BAME students attain far better.

Lots was done in the late 90’s and early 2000’s with funding and programmes for BAME children, that was not afforded to white children coming from similar or even worse family/socio-economic status.

At the risk of going way off topic again, the study is about Black players, not BAME players. If you start lumping all non-white people together in education then you get the Asian kids who achieve very highly (Chinese in particular). Black kids do OK these days, but that's still a gross simplification as it's the Black African ones who do well and Black Carribbean ones still struggle. I think this is largely because the people who come here from West Africa are often high achieving parents. Then of course Africa (like Asia) is a big old place with a complicated diaspora, I mean, is RAN classed as Black African - genuinely no idea?

 

[Asthmatic Wolf]

At the risk of going way off topic again, the study is about Black players, not BAME players. If you start lumping all non-white people together in education then you get the Asian kids who achieve very highly (Chinese in particular). Black kids do OK these days, but that's still a gross simplification as it's the Black African ones who do well and Black Carribbean ones still struggle. I think this is largely because the people who come here from West Africa are often high achieving parents. Then of course Africa (like Asia) is a big old place with a complicated diaspora, I mean, is RAN classed as Black African - genuinely no idea?

Where people are of dual or multiple heritage, a large part of the demographic determination is how that person chooses to declare their heritage.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

The thing is the same programmes you mention above in schools been in place for years in football too. I work closely with black footballers on aspects of this. But that still this has not resulted in better outcomes don’t sort of contradicts the earlier point.

The reality is that there is no singular reason as KW says, some coaches won’t be good enough, whilst others will lack other skills. But the reality is there is a huge spectrum when it comes to racial obstruction ranging from unintentional but unchecked affinity bias to actual racism, all of which will exist in the conversation we are having.

The key thing is not to seek to change human nature, we all have bias, but to have sufficiently robust systems to ensure these biases don’t influence our decision making processes. We can argue til we are blue in the face (no pun intended) but the litmus test for racial equality is the cold hard statistic on representation and we need to accept that where people of colour are massively underrepresented despite forming a strong part of a candidate pool, it is likely to be that very colour which is a significant reason for that.

Great post! This should be a sticky for this thread AW. Exactly my feelings (and what I’ve been trying to say throughout this thread) but in a much more eloquent way than I could ever deliver.

 

[wolfslair]

At the risk of going way off topic again, the study is about Black players, not BAME players. If you start lumping all non-white people together in education then you get the Asian kids who achieve very highly (Chinese in particular). Black kids do OK these days, but that's still a gross simplification as it's the Black African ones who do well and Black Carribbean ones still struggle. I think this is largely because the people who come here from West Africa are often high achieving parents. Then of course Africa (like Asia) is a big old place with a complicated diaspora, I mean, is RAN classed as Black African - genuinely no idea?

The statistic remains the same about white working class boys being lowest achievers when you do it based purely white and black children…….

I said BAME, when the stat is the same even when BAME protected classes are separated into their own groups.