FFP

[sc91]

The farce of this is that even a 3 point fine, if actually enforced last season on the squad that was assembled while breaking the rules (as was suggested it would be at one point) would have seen them relegated. Wonder what Leicester will make of being relegated by a club found guilty of cheating, but punished in the subsequent season?

That's why the talk of points deduction would come with reparation for the wrongly relegated clubs who over two seasons went down when Everton would have instead.

 

[Jefe]

Transfer ban and fine would be my guess, just can't see how they deduct points without opening a whole can of worms

If Everton only incur a fine and an embargo after breaching the FFP limit three times over, there will be a scramble for rich owners to blow hundreds of millions on players within the next three years. Even with an embargo, they will have built a strong enough squad to weather the storm. Has to be points, and possibly even Premier League status itself.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

That's why the talk of points deduction would come with reparation for the wrongly relegated clubs who over two seasons went down when Everton would have instead.

Is that right? I mean that would have to be hundreds of millions! Turn Bramley Moor Dock into the Weimar Republic.

 

[RosehillWolf]

There is nothing for them to overturn, they've been caught and the evidence against financial fraud is stacked against them, in the words of my form mentor, this is a closed and shut case, there is no argument for Everton, the hearing in October is more about punishment than anything else.

Yes. I understand that. I’m saying if they do get a points deduction and they are relegated because of it , then, a legal battle will ensue
Because of this the EPL will just fine them , and probably allow them to pay it off in instalments

 

[RosehillWolf]

Anyway. Why wait til October to dish out any “ penalty “
Why can’t they do it now ?

 

[Timberwolf]

It needs to be more than a fine as these big clubs are so rich they can just pay it and keep breaking the rules. Would not surprise me if they went in hard on Everton to prove a point.

Maybe those within the game already have an idea of what Everton are facing and it has got them spooked.

The FA are ****-scared of litigation. They will never punish ‘too much’ as they’d get embroiled in injunctions, appeals. law suits and then, the court of sports arbitration which will water down any punishment anyway.
As you rightly state, the FA may want to make an example of Everton but only to the limits of what Everton will be happy to swallow without them going legally nuclear on the FA.

 

[wolfinexile]

100% agree with this. The moment a club like ours break the rules they will come down on us like a tonne of bricks.

I still remember when they fined us for fielding a weakened team in the FA Cup to rest players for the next league game!! Which was madness!! Don’t remember any of the larger teams being fined despite them often playing weakened line ups!

I can understand the club being careful.

It was in the league versus Man U. McCarthy banked on beating Burnley in the next game and he was right. Big help to Wolves in relegation battle. Noone cares about the Cup.

 

[JayStringer]

It was in the league versus Man U. McCarthy banked on beating Burnley in the next game and he was right. Big help to Wolves in relegation battle. Noone cares about the Cup.

Yep, league game. We had Spurs, United and Burnley in the space of a week. We beat Spurs, he made 9 changes for United, then reverted to first team to beat Burnley. Arsene Wenger complained A LOT.

 

[JayStringer]

Anyway. Why wait til October to dish out any “ penalty “
Why can’t they do it now ?

I think the prem hoped Everton would get relegated so they could just put a future punishment on place and not worry about it. But Everton stayed up and now the prem need to figure out a punishment.

I think a 3-window transfer ban and 10 point deduction is likely.

 

[AndyY]

Now, here is my original point: Isn't it astonishing that there is no established ruleset defining the consequences when a club is found guilty of breaching the FFP rules? Let's see if it gains more attention this time.

Agree, the rules should be clear from the outset - breach FFP by £0-10M = 3 point deduction, breach by £11-20M = 6 point deduction, or whatever, etc.

 

[theweave]

If Everton only incur a fine and an embargo after breaching the FFP limit three times over, there will be a scramble for rich owners to blow hundreds of millions on players within the next three years. Even with an embargo, they will have built a strong enough squad to weather the storm. Has to be points, and possibly even Premier League status itself.

I agree just can't see the premier league being that strong

 

[Monk]

Reading handed six-point deduction

Championship side Reading are deducted six points by the English Football League for breaching financial rules.

www.bbc.co.uk

The EFL did it with reading and derby no legal comeback from either club. It's just do the EPL have the guts to impose a similar penalty on Everton

 

[sedgwolf1980]

Lots of discussion about the potential punishment but what seems to be being glossed over is the extent to which they breached it. Jesus Christ.

For me, anything less than 12 point deduction and FFP is dead. For 300m I would argue most clubs could assemble a team to easily achieve way, way in excess of an incremental 12 points.

 

[wolfgar]

We appear to think there is a strong chance Everton will have the book thrown at them. Given the scale of their breach the punishment really should be a points deduction, transfer ban and a huge fine/reparations. Slapping them on the wrists with a large fine and saying that you’ll definitely get tough next time would be an outrageous and silly thing for the FA to do. Probably worth having a few quid on then?

City will get off far more lightly than Everton I expect? I can totally imagine that a club like Wolves would be more harshly punished than Everton if we were in their exact same position though?

 

[JadeWolf]

Juventus kicked out of Europe by Uefa & Chelsea fined

Juventus are kicked out of this season's Europa Conference League and fined for breaching Financial Fair Play rules, Uefa has announced.

www.bbc.co.uk

Not the PL but UEFA. I guess if Chelsea had qualified for Europe this season they’d have been booted out too.

 

[SWest Wolf]

If Everton did breach FFP, and they only get a fine like Chelsea, then it will set a dangerous precedent for future cases. Teams would probably say bugger it, and spend what they want as they know that Everton got away lightly.
In my view, they need to go hard on Everton if they want FFP to be upheld by other clubs.

 

[WestChiltingtonwolf]

I apologize for posting this in the transfer thread; however, the topics appear to be closely related. Besides, I run a forum myself, and if someone accidentally posts in the wrong thread, I simply move the post to the fitting one. It's quite strange to see mods outright deleting people's posts in my opinion.

Now, here is my original point: Isn't it astonishing that there is no established ruleset defining the consequences when a club is found guilty of breaching the FFP rules? Let's see if it gains more attention this time.

It’s similar to the cost-cap over over-spending in F1. I expected there to be a pre-determined punishment for red bull, but no. It can’t help but be interrupted that the authorities will try and take the best course of action of themselves.

 

[wolfgar]

They were so desperate to keep Everton in the league last season they were awarded half an hours injury time at molineux to ****house an equaliser. I’m not holding my breath about them getting hammered over this FFP stuff tbh

 

[SuperGran]

If Everton did breach FFP, and they only get a fine like Chelsea, then it will set a dangerous precedent for future cases. Teams would probably say bugger it, and spend what they want as they know that Everton got away lightly.
In my view, they need to go hard on Everton if they want FFP to be upheld by other clubs.

My view too

 

[wolvesaywe]

Lots of discussion about the potential punishment but what seems to be being glossed over is the extent to which they breached it. Jesus Christ.

For me, anything less than 12 point deduction and FFP is dead. For 300m I would argue most clubs could assemble a team to easily achieve way, way in excess of an incremental 12 points.

Agreed

A fine is an absurd method for punishing any entity that is more than happy to overspend in the first place

 

[Leominster_Wolf]

Juventus kicked out of Europe by Uefa & Chelsea fined

Juventus are kicked out of this season's Europa Conference League and fined for breaching Financial Fair Play rules, Uefa has announced.

www.bbc.co.uk

Not the PL but UEFA. I guess if Chelsea had qualified for Europe this season they’d have been booted out too.

In fairness it says it was historical discrepancies and was reported to UEFA by Chelsea themselves, the new ownership.

 

[WV10Wolf]

Anyway. Why wait til October to dish out any “ penalty “
Why can’t they do it now ?

The cynic it me would say that they’ll wait to see what sort of season they’re having. If they’re cut adrift, it’s a fine, if they’re fighting for Europe it’s a points deduction, just enough to ultimately see them safe though.

 

[bigbluewolf]

Everton ‘only’ overspent by £56.8m not £300m.

Total overspend was £371.8m over three years.
Maximum allowed is £105m per year.

£371.8m - (£105m x 3) = £56.8m

It’s still a lot of an overspend but not £300m.

 

[Leominster_Wolf]

Everton ‘only’ overspent by £56.8m not £300m.

Total overspend was £371.8m over three years.
Maximum allowed is £105m per year.

£371.8m - (£105m x 3) = £56.8m

It’s still a lot of an overspend but not £300m.

View attachment 36004

its £105m over 3 years, so their overspend was £266m - not £300m I grant you, but not exactly a near miss

 

[yateleywolf]

From what I read Everton will argue its losses were due to covid and its not a clear-cut case (for them anyway). What is clear, the length of time it takes is ridiculous.
It's a massive test case which other clubs will be all over.
In principle I did feel some restraint was required to keep clubs safe but in reality it doesn't really work.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Everton ‘only’ overspent by £56.8m not £300m.

Total overspend was £371.8m over three years.
Maximum allowed is £105m per year.

£371.8m - (£105m x 3) = £56.8m

It’s still a lot of an overspend but not £300m.

View attachment 36004

That’s what you get from reading The Guardian!

As @Leominster_Wolf said, it’s 105m over a three year rolling period, not 105m per season as the Guardian suggests. If the owner doesn’t cover the losses, then the allowed rolling debt falls to 15m, also over three years.

Premier League FFP Rules: How Much Can Teams Spend?

Discover the Premier League's financial rules which control how much teams are allowed to spend on wages, transfers and infrastructure.

sqaf.club

 

[Sussex Wolf]

From what I read Everton will argue its losses were due to covid and its not a clear-cut case (for them anyway). What is clear, the length of time it takes is ridiculous.
It's a massive test case which other clubs will be all over.
In principle I did feel some restraint was required to keep clubs safe but in reality it doesn't really work.

Even with the losses they attributed to Covid, as accepted by the PL at the time, they are still well over the rolling 105m. I can’t see any way for them to argue they didn’t breach the FFP debt limit by a significant margin.

 

[Hanbury_Wolf]

It was in the league versus Man U. McCarthy banked on beating Burnley in the next game and he was right. Big help to Wolves in relegation battle. Noone cares about the Cup.

We dont actually know he was right. We could have won them all

 

[SuperGran]

It was in the league versus Man U. McCarthy banked on beating Burnley in the next game and he was right. Big help to Wolves in relegation battle. Noone cares about the Cup.

Apart from the travelling fans

 

[Mutchy]

We dont actually know he was right. We could have won them all

Or lost them both. He got what he needed from the decision.

 

[bigbluewolf]

its £105m over 3 years, so their overspend was £266m - not £300m I grant you, but not exactly a near miss

So the article linked at the beginning of this thread is wrong? That’s where I got the information from.

 

[bigbluewolf]

That’s what you get from reading The Guardian!

As @Leominster_Wolf said, it’s 105m over a three year rolling period, not 105m per season as the Guardian suggests. If the owner doesn’t cover the losses, then the allowed rolling debt falls to 15m, also over three years.

Premier League FFP Rules: How Much Can Teams Spend?

Discover the Premier League's financial rules which control how much teams are allowed to spend on wages, transfers and infrastructure.

sqaf.club

I don’t read The Guardian. It was a screenshot from the article linked in the first post of this thread. I assume it’s wrong then?

 

[Leominster_Wolf]

So the article linked at the beginning of this thread is wrong? That’s where I got the information from.

Yes completely wrong mate as @Sussex Wolf has linked

 

[JadeWolf]

If Everton don’t get a heavy punishment, it makes a mockery of FFP and also makes our summer strategy a waste of time. Let’s see what happens.

 

[Ches78]

One of the main things that makes me sympathetic to the current efforts to balance the books (despite it being a problem largely of our own making) is you just know that if any club were to get handed a very harsh punishment from the FA for breaking FFP rules (e.g. heavy points deduction etc.) it would be us. I fully expect that we'd be jumped on, to serve as an example to others, to a far greater extent than other clubs, like Everton etc.

Now, where's my tin foil hat...

 

[Surrey Wolf]

If Everton don’t get a heavy punishment, it makes a mockery of FFP and also makes our summer strategy a waste of time. Let’s see what happens.

It would make our summer strategy nothing more than an excuse

 

[Monk]

One of the main things that makes me sympathetic to the current efforts to balance the books (despite it being a problem largely of our own making) is you just know that if any club were to get handed a very harsh punishment from the FA for breaking FFP rules (e.g. heavy points deduction etc.) it would be us. I fully expect that we'd be jumped on, to serve as an example to others, to a far greater extent than other clubs, like Everton etc.

Now, where's my tin foil hat...

Don't think you're going to get any disagreements on this forum with what you have said regarding what would happen if it was us in the same position. Just look at the fine we had following the Chelsea shenanigans

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I don’t read The Guardian. It was a screenshot from the article linked in the first post of this thread. I assume it’s wrong then?

Yes, they've misquoted the Guardian article which had it correct.

Everton face threat of multimillion-pound legal bill from quartet over FFP case

Everton face legal action from Leicester, Leeds, Southampton and Burnley if they lose their case for an alleged breach of the Premier League’s financial fair play rules

www.theguardian.com

To be clear here if this is going to turn into an Everton thread....
I assume Everton were cleared prior to this charge as otherwise it would have been made earlier, so the 3 year period is 20/21 - 21/22 - 22/23

Nobody actually knows the figures as they will be based on the projected accounts that clubs have to provide to the PL.

This was
20/21 -121.3m
21/22 -44.7m
22/23 we don't actually know, but this article suggests possibly -49m

So the suggestion is that total losses are 214m over the 3 year period. Or 109m more than allowed. However Everton claimed 90m was down to Covid in 21/22 and I reckon they'll try to claim more for this.

Biggest farce is that having suggested it might be sorted to make the last season a fair finish, the hearing is 25th October, with no doubt an appeal or two taking it towards the end of next season, by which time the effect of the sanction is likely to be more predictable.

 

[Bawtry Wolf]

Could people please stop confusing UEFA FFP and EPL FFP. They’re different. We were punished under UEFA FFP when we were in Europe and that’s what’s happened to Chelsea and Juventus. EPL FFP is more relaxed than Europe. If Everton by some miracle qualifies for Europe they’d be banned before they’d started.

 

[Monk]

Financial Fair Play investigation

On topic please Off topic - please stay on topic By the way, only everton can balls up financial fair play Stupidity is not a defence in law

www.grandoldteam.com

Just had a quick flick through the Everton thread on the subject of FFP- most of them think it's not that a big deal the situation they are in - can't believe the arrogance some of them have