Discipline - or lack thereof:

[St.Simon.]

Some statistics that I would prefer not to see:

Most Fouls committed:
Everton 210
Wolves 201
Palace 199
Saints 198
Villa 197

Cards:
Spurs 3/39
Arsenal 1/42
Watford 1/39
Sheff Utd 1/39
Wolves 2/36

 

[Deleted member 9788]

Genuinely surprised not to see man 'technical foul' city in that list

 

[Pagey]

Like it or not, It's our style of play. We are aggressive and play in your face football.

 

[Bugsy911]

Don't care a hoot about our bookings , how a player isn't sent off against us for the fouls on Traroe and Jota every game is more of a concern.

 

[Wolowolf6]

To be fair, the majority of those bookings are from Saiss and Neves.

 

[Hot Fuss]

Disgraceful

to be fair we tried to foul a few of the Norwich players on Saturday but couldn’t get close enough!

 

[Leominster_Wolf]

According to whoscored we are 9th in the list of cards. And only 5 teams with less than 30 yellows

 

[Chriswwfc]

A lot of those are when jota puts a defender on their ****...

Amount of fouls this season given by incompetent refs has been unbelievable to then see the opposition throw themselves over....

 

[Leominster_Wolf]

Don't care a hoot about our bookings , how a player isn't sent off against us for the fouls on Traroe and Jota every game is more of a concern.

when you look at fouls per game it is odd

according to whoscored we commit 11.8 fouls per game (2nd highest) yet are only fouled 8.8 times per game (15th)

slow day at work...… you bet!!

 

[Hot Fuss]

when you look at fouls per game it is odd

according to whoscored we commit 11.8 fouls per game (2nd highest) yet are only fouled 8.8 times per game (15th)

slow day at work...… you bet!!

I can believe those stats. We are a team who tend to let the opposition have a fair bit of possession and they can’t foul you if they’ve got the ball.

 

[quirky_birky]

It's not a lack of discipline. Many of those are "tactical fouls" - taking one for the team - and most of the rest will be mistimed or poorly judged tackles. Jota's red against Bratislava was down to a lack of discipline, but I'd sooner see him play with fire in his belly.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

I bet half of those were Romain Saiss.

 

[Darvo]

It's something that I had noticed (from looking at match stats regularly). It's definitely something for us to improve on. I think we do give away quite a lot of unnecessary free kicks in dangerous areas.

 

[Hot Fuss]

It's not a lack of discipline. Many of those are "tactical fouls" - taking one for the team - and most of the rest will be mistimed or poorly judged tackles. Jota's red against Bratislava was down to a lack of discipline, but I'd sooner see him play with fire in his belly.

Agreed. Discipline isn’t a big issue. Jota sometimes loses it and Neves uses his mouth a bit too much but apart from Bolys daft second yellow at Everton we tend to stay in control.
As you say, tactical fouls aren’t a lack of discipline.

 

[Leominster_Wolf]

I can believe those stats. We are a team who tend to let the opposition have a fair bit of possession and they can’t foul you if they’ve got the ball.

I suppose you are right there. We are 12th on average possession at 47.5%

Although conversely looking at Man City - average possession 60.9% (1st) and they commit 10.1 fouls per game (15th), but are only fouled 7.6 times per game (=19th - same as Sheff U)

Villa on the other hand have 46.4% possession, but are the most fouled at 13.4 per game.

 

[Pagey]

Villa on the other hand have 46.4% possession, but are the most fouled at 13.4 per game.

Grealish

 

[ShropshireLad]

According to whoscored we are 9th in the list of cards. And only 5 teams with less than 30 yellows
View attachment 12962

No red cards to Man U and Chelsea. Anyone surprised by that?

 

[Mr Wolf]

Personally I don’t care how many fouls we pick up.

I know we struggle to defend with anyone running at us & lack pace in the middle & at the back so makes sense.

 

[alobmbe]

Out of interest, where did these stats come from? Are they just PL? 2019-20 season to date?

 

[Leominster_Wolf]

Grealish

I couldn't possibly comment!!

 

[Hot Fuss]

I suppose you are right there. We are 12th on average possession at 47.5%

Although conversely looking at Man City - average possession 60.9% (1st) and they commit 10.1 fouls per game (15th), but are only fouled 7.6 times per game (=19th - same as Sheff U)

Villa on the other hand have 46.4% possession, but are the most fouled at 13.4 per game.

Surprised at City being fouled so few times. Maybe because they tend to move the ball quickly?

 

[Pagey]

Tbf if Bennett had played more, you could add another 10 tactical yellows to the list

 

[Leominster_Wolf]

Out of interest, where did these stats come from? Are they just PL? 2019-20 season to date?

Some interesting stats to be found, what I have just quoted is prem league
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...amStatistics/England-Premier-League-2019-2020

 

[GoldenHorseshoe]

No red cards to Man U and Chelsea. Anyone surprised by that?

No and even less surprised to see Leicester and liverpool at the bottom of the list...... institutional bias?

 

[GoldenHorseshoe]

Same with VAR, it wouldn't surprise me if those 2 were at the top of the VAR benefit.

 

[JonahWolf]

Lot of things skewing those stats. Like **** refs.

As examples, it’s a foul any time Adama is shoulder to shoulder with a defender, if a Wolves player is standing within 5 feet of Alli, Kane,and many others when they attempt their salmon impression.

 

[alobmbe]

Some interesting stats to be found, what I have just quoted is prem league
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...amStatistics/England-Premier-League-2019-2020

Thanks but i was referring to the stats that were provided by the OP. I was curious because, for example, the more games you play, the more fouls you are going to commit.

 

[Southdownswolf]

Interesting when you look at the Europa League, we are the second least fouled team in the group stages with an average of 8.
We are 21/48 for committing fouls, an average of 13 per match.
As for cards, we are 6th with 8 yellows and 1 red.

 

[St.Simon.]

It's not a lack of discipline. Many of those are "tactical fouls" - taking one for the team - and most of the rest will be mistimed or poorly judged tackles. Jota's red against Bratislava was down to a lack of discipline, but I'd sooner see him play with fire in his belly.

Of course it's a lack of discipline, the rules have been broken. By definition "the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behaviour, using punishment to correct disobedience", whether or not it is "tactical". Interesting though, it seems that tactical fouls are considered perfectly acceptable by most on here (as long as they are done by us of course). Whereas, diving which is also "tactical" is condemned as cheating. What's the difference, they are all cheating. Mistimed tackles are forgivable in my book, provided there is no intent to injure.

 

[Yout85]

I bet half of those were Romain Saiss.

I bet half of those weren't fouls

 

[Fenrir_]

If anyone fancies watching a re-run of our opening game of the season and wants to tell me how the foul count was 13-3 with it being anything other than a completely biased Andre Marriner in charge I'm all ears.

We do commit tactical fouls, but it's not as if we go around kicking teams off the park. I'd say a lot of it is being a little naive and getting done by players who like to fall over when we get within a yard of them. Something you don't tend to see our players do much

 

[oldgoldheart]

our only really dirty player is saiss. neves also fouls but he is mostly trying to get the ball. apart from that there is little to worry about

 

[Pagey]

Some interesting stats to be found, what I have just quoted is prem league
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...amStatistics/England-Premier-League-2019-2020

Fascinating to see only 5% off the shots against us are in 6 yard box, solid aye we!!!

 

[Sketchead]

Genuinely surprised not to see man 'technical foul' city in that list

Shows how the media can make you think things that aren't really as major as they make out. We're much worse at tactical fouls than the likes of City.

Tactical fouls are fine for me, however what annoys me is when our defenders clean people out for no reason around the box. Saiss does this twice a match - I know our defenders are all midfielders but they don't half do daft things sometimes. I guess we can put it down to them all lacking any sort of pace.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Just to be clear on the whoscored stats we are rated 9th worst for discipline. 15 teams have between 20 and 30 yellow cards though, so there isn't much spread. Second in fouls, but the whole league is covered by 8.8 to 12 per game. We make very few tackles that endanger opposition players. Nothing to see here.

 

[Leominster_Wolf]

looking at last years stats - very similar pattern
average possession 47.45%
Yellow cards 72 (5th highest)
Fouls committed 10.8 per game (10th)
Fouled 8.6 per game (18th)

 

[quirky_birky]

Of course it's a lack of discipline, the rules have been broken. By definition "the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behaviour, using punishment to correct disobedience", whether or not it is "tactical". Interesting though, it seems that tactical fouls are considered perfectly acceptable by most on here (as long as they are done by us of course). Whereas, diving which is also "tactical" is condemned as cheating. What's the difference, they are all cheating. Mistimed tackles are forgivable in my book, provided there is no intent to injure.

"The practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behaviour, using punishment to correct disobedience". Depends who's rules they're obeying doesn't it. If their manager has instructed them to use tactical fouling when necessary then I'd say they're actually rather disciplined.

Sure, rules have been broken and the player is liable to a booking, and so just takes it on the chin. Also, tactical fouling doesn't directly prevent (or create) a clear goalscoring chance ("professional fouls", preventing such, have been subject to a red for years). Is it cheating? Yes, but it's not to the same level as diving where the player is out to con the ref into giving an opportunity on goal (free-kick or penalty), plus possible sanctions on the innocent defending player (booking or sending off). It's also not the same as hacking down a player who's going to get past you otherwise.

Lack of discipline? Depends on your perspective. Breaking the rules, yes, but a lack of discipline suggests to me a player who has let his side down due to poor judgement or a rush of blood to the head. A tactical foul (and subsequent booking) is taking one for the team.

How many times have we watched highlights when Traore is hacked down and a commentator makes some comment about that being the only way to stop him. It seems that course of action, and the subsequent booking, is deemed acceptable, but surely that's another level entirely.

We can't judge modern football on the standards of Stan Cullis in his playing days. Sure, tactical fouling is part of the cynical side of the game, but it's not the same thing as diving. Do I condone it? If everyone else is doing it then why not. I remember us playing City years ago (think they'd just been relegated). They were so much cuter at the niggly side of the game, everything that the Premier League sides of the time were well versed in and we weren't. We've moved on from that and we're no longer naive in the Premier League dark arts, even if we stop short of diving, which is fine by me.

 

[Hot Fuss]

If anyone fancies watching a re-run of our opening game of the season and wants to tell me how the foul count was 13-3 with it being anything other than a completely biased Andre Marriner in charge I'm all ears.

We do commit tactical fouls, but it's not as if we go around kicking teams off the park. I'd say a lot of it is being a little naive and getting done by players who like to fall over when we get within a yard of them. Something you don't tend to see our players do much

We only had 30% possession that day so stands to reason we wouldn’t get fouled very often.

Marriner was dreadful though.

 

[St.Simon.]

"The practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behaviour, using punishment to correct disobedience". Depends who's rules they're obeying doesn't it. If their manager has instructed them to use tactical fouling when necessary then I'd say they're actually rather disciplined.

Sure, rules have been broken and the player is liable to a booking, and so just takes it on the chin. Also, tactical fouling doesn't directly prevent (or create) a clear goalscoring chance ("professional fouls", preventing such, have been subject to a red for years). Is it cheating? Yes, but it's not to the same level as diving where the player is out to con the ref into giving an opportunity on goal (free-kick or penalty), plus possible sanctions on the innocent defending player (booking or sending off). It's also not the same as hacking down a player who's going to get past you otherwise.

Lack of discipline? Depends on your perspective. Breaking the rules, yes, but a lack of discipline suggests to me a player who has let his side down due to poor judgement or a rush of blood to the head. A tactical foul (and subsequent booking) is taking one for the team.

How many times have we watched highlights when Traore is hacked down and a commentator makes some comment about that being the only way to stop him. It seems that course of action, and the subsequent booking, is deemed acceptable, but surely that's another level entirely.

We can't judge modern football on the standards of Stan Cullis in his playing days. Sure, tactical fouling is part of the cynical side of the game, but it's not the same thing as diving. Do I condone it? If everyone else is doing it then why not. I remember us playing City years ago (think they'd just been relegated). They were so much cuter at the niggly side of the game, everything that the Premier League sides of the time were well versed in and we weren't. We've moved on from that and we're no longer naive in the Premier League dark arts, even if we stop short of diving, which is fine by me.

I know where you are coming from QB, and do not entirely disagree, however, the rules are put in place by the governing body - not the manager. If they break the rules, then I repeat that is indiciplined. If your boss tells you to go and steal from Tesco, and you do it, you may have obeyed but you are still a thief. N'est ce pas? Anyway, it's all semantics.

Irrespective as to whether everyone does it, tactical fouling is a modern curse. It destroys the flow of the game, and we all suffer. If no-one did it (utopia) the game would be far more exciting don't you think?

I agree with what you say about diving...I hate it. I also hate to see the grappling arms around attackers in the box for every corner/free kick. Why that is not penalised more baffles me.

Re your targeting of Traore comment... it seems to me that this hacking is almost always pre-planned by the managers (if you can't stop him, bring him down) and if it becomes apparent that this is the case the referee should give the manager a warning, and if they persist some penalty should be applied to the manager / club. A hefty fine perhaps.

 

[Erick1011]

I don’t agree that tactical fouling is cheating. In most cases it results in a booking - something that diving is not consistent with. In most cases, the diving ****ers get away with it without a booking for simulation. In a tactical foul, the players know it’s a booking for their troubles, same as a professional foul with a straight red. It’s part of the game, and something that the players have to gamble with. Not the same as booking at all, which aims to deceive the ref.