An apology to Gary O'Neil

[maws]

Sad but true. As with Jonny, successive injuries have ruined Neto. Shame because he was a joy on his day.

Oh trust me a good coach will get Neto back to a class player, it’s still all there it’s not getting used tho

 

[wolfslair]

Time will tell. He wound me up in his interview coming out with the line about how if everything was OK then there wouldn't have been a change of manager. He's got a good bunch of players, obvious weaknesses in the squad, but a mid-table first XI. Can't afford injuries and suspensions though .....

The more I reflect on this post mate, it has struck me…..

Either he is a thick as pig muck (I hope not) and lacking basic ability to research and read what has gone on to see two sides of the story.

Or

What load of *******s and manipulation of facts around the departure of JL the club have told him in regards to what is going on… and he is very much a yes man already….

But from his press conference, i am still very concerned about him as a manager…..

 

[wolfslair]

Oh trust me a good coach will get Neto back to a class player, it’s still all there it’s not getting used tho

He looked great for Portugal at the u21 euros

 

[Contrarian]

Today, this pub level manager has been exposed for what he is. Asking the slowest defensive pairing in the league to play so high is idiotic. Especially if you ask your midfield to run beyond the attack. And to do it against Brighton - the best counter team in the league is either stupid or incompetent. Did this guy not watch us try and play Brighton last year? Shambles

You could say that he was playing to the gallery. There seems to be a continual demand from fans to "attack attack attack". It's all there in the build up - we have to attack Brighton. I hope the manager wasn't daft enough to listen to fans, but you never know. TBF Most of us are pub level managers at best, so you'd expect that naivity.

Attacking football that doesn't get results, wears out it's welcome far quicker than most realise.

 

[loppers86]

Why did we give this clown a 3-year contract?

 

[wolfslair]

You could say that he was playing to the gallery. There seems to be a continual demand from fans to "attack attack attack". It's all there in the build up - we have to attack Brighton. I hope the manager wasn't daft enough to listen to fans, but you never know. TBF Most of us are pub level managers at best, so you'd expect that naivity.

Attacking football that doesn't get results, wears out it's welcome far quicker than most realise.

Also there is a time and place for “attack attack attack” and any person with half a brain knows brighton and city are two teams you don’t do that with!

We would have been better being disciplined from a low block and breaking from there, but having more defensive discipline in the numbers of how many go forward but also the stupid notion of leaving Mitoma in acres of space when we have possession as they look for him to break the counter.

Yesterday needed someone stood next to him for the full game like they were his second skin……

 

[Contrarian]

Also there is a time and place for “attack attack attack” and any person with half a brain knows brighton and city are two teams you don’t do that with!

We would have been better being disciplined from a low block and breaking from there, but having more defensive discipline in the numbers of how many go forward but also the stupid notion of leaving Mitoma in acres of space when we have possession as they look for him to break the counter.

Yesterday needed someone stood next to him for the full game like they were his second skin……

Yep. But do we have that player? I'm not sure we do, not good enough to keep Mitoma quiet.

I'm just bewildered by this continual idea that we have goals in us, it just needs the right wave of the magic wand. So when we lose, it must be Sa's fault for not being able to casually dribble pass attackers and play Neves-like passes out from the back.

Just look at the evidence - we got players forward, still couldn't score in open play. Meanwhile, how many players did Brighton have in our box for each of their goals?One or two. That's all. It's not the quantity. It's the quality. While we insist on keep spending all the money on non-goalscorers, we will never solve it.

 

[Golden Arrow]

Also there is a time and place for “attack attack attack” and any person with half a brain knows brighton and city are two teams you don’t do that with!

We would have been better being disciplined from a low block and breaking from there, but having more defensive discipline in the numbers of how many go forward but also the stupid notion of leaving Mitoma in acres of space when we have possession as they look for him to break the counter.

Yesterday needed someone stood next to him for the full game like they were his second skin……

Hear, bleedin hear or "in spades" as someone on here used to say on daily basis.
Mitoma had the freedom of the city yesterday and needed someone right up his jacksy, so to speak.
That's how we used to contain a flash player in the Potteries and District Sunday league all those years ago.

They don't like it up em, Mr Mainwairing !!

 

[wolfslair]

Yep. But do we have that player? I'm not sure we do, not good enough to keep Mitoma quiet.

I'm just bewildered by this continual idea that we have goals in us, it just needs the right wave of the magic wand. So when we lose, it must be Sa's fault for not being able to casually dribble pass attackers and play Neves-like passes out from the back.

Just look at the evidence - we got players forward, still couldn't score in open play. Meanwhile, how many players did Brighton have in our box for each of their goals?One or two. That's all. It's not the quantity. It's the quality. While we insist on keep spending all the money on non-goalscorers, we will never solve it.

Agree 100%

Sa’s passing isn’t the issue….. it is poor, but he isn’t the worst in the league. There are other keepers with bad passing.

 

[lostwolf]

Agree 100%

Sa’s passing isn’t the issue….. it is poor, but he isn’t the worst in the league. There are other keepers with bad passing.

It was atrocious yesterday. He's still a decent keeper though so I'd be telling him to keep it very simple when it's his feet: if there's an easy pass on, then play it quickly, if not, just go long and aim for our bigger players. I know that sounds like Sunday League level stuff but I think it's the kind of simplicity Sa needs at the moment... focus on stopping shots. We have to play to our strengths not try to fit square pegs into round holes.

 

[lostwolf]

Also there is a time and place for “attack attack attack” and any person with half a brain knows brighton and city are two teams you don’t do that with!

We would have been better being disciplined from a low block and breaking from there, but having more defensive discipline in the numbers of how many go forward but also the stupid notion of leaving Mitoma in acres of space when we have possession as they look for him to break the counter.

Yesterday needed someone stood next to him for the full game like they were his second skin……

And with players like RAN, Cunha, Doc and Nunes we again have the players to effectively break when the ball's turned over. Unfortunately, I don't see many of those breaks ending in goals, as we are a team of technically decent players who don't take chances.

 

[Fenrir_]

Yep. But do we have that player? I'm not sure we do, not good enough to keep Mitoma quiet.

I'm just bewildered by this continual idea that we have goals in us, it just needs the right wave of the magic wand. So when we lose, it must be Sa's fault for not being able to casually dribble pass attackers and play Neves-like passes out from the back.

Just look at the evidence - we got players forward, still couldn't score in open play. Meanwhile, how many players did Brighton have in our box for each of their goals?One or two. That's all. It's not the quantity. It's the quality. While we insist on keep spending all the money on non-goalscorers, we will never solve it.

Brighton are the example

Played great stuff under Potter, didn't score, De Zerbi came in, they play a similar way but take more risks, and the goals are flowing. They've gone from being a side scoring just over a goal a game under Potter to a side scoring two goals a game under De Zerbi, and generally with the same players. There was no big squad upheaval, just an attacking change to the mentality. Using another Brighton example, Solly March is 29 and had never scored more than three goals in a season, De Zerbi goes in and he can't stop scoring

If we attack more, we'll score more. Sign all the proven goalscorers you want but if we sit back and don't commit numbers forward, they won't get the numbers you're hoping for

 

[Contrarian]

Brighton weren't commiting numbers forward for their goals.

 

[Rubberball]

Brighton weren't commiting numbers forward for their goals.

They did but not at the expense of defence. It's the speed they get forward which is the difference between Potter and De Zerbi but that incisive passing both men built into their teams.

I wouldn't say Brighton played the same way under Potter and De Zerbi, I think they're very different. What Brighton did fantastically well is they bought players that could play either way.

We don't have that ability at the club and having agent interference is never going to end well.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

Brighton weren't commiting numbers forward for their goals.

Second goal they have more forward than us.
The gap between our midfield and defence is horrible.
I don't think it should be a case of why didn't we score this 4 goals. We should be looking at why we conceded four this time. We are too open, and second and fourth goals in particular we are just trotting back.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

I’ve had to remove myself from here for a few days to let the dust settle, but this is by far the best example of the bipolar nature on here. O’Neil has gone from Pep on Monday to Saunders on Saturday, truth being somewhere in between

 

[Rubberball]

Second goal they have more forward than us.
The gap between our midfield and defence is horrible.
I don't think it should be a case of why didn't we score this 4 goals. We should be looking at why we conceded four this time. We are too open, and second and fourth goals in particular we are just trotting back.

Bad tactics, bad HT team talk, just bad all round.

That has to fall on GoN so soon after HT.

 

[Fenrir_]

Brighton weren't commiting numbers forward for their goals.

They do though, their goals (other than Mitoma's) came on the transition. But Brighton under De Zerbi leave more gaps at the back and push more players forward, guess what? More goals (both for and against but a bigger difference in the positive column)

There was an instance on Saturday where we had a couple of players pushing down our right and Estupinan, rather than covering defensively, actually went forward. Brighton won the ball, got it to Estupinan and we were in all kinds of trouble. More risks

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

I heard O'Niell did his team talk but instead of the whiteboard he used a fag packet and a smear of turd, as those were the only tools made available to him by Hangman Shi and Emperor Guo.
He then forced Pedro Neto to eat the tactics, to really show he digested them. This shock tactic might of worked but his mild dyslexia had him put Neto and Nunes on the wrong side, and he couldn't be ***** to fill in the midfield places as he'd run out "ink".

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

Bad tactics, bad HT team talk, just bad all round.

That has to fall on GoN so soon after HT.

It didn't for most though under Lopetegui did it?
Why did we concede 6 last time we played them?
Bad tactics? Bad team talk? Bad players?

 

[DanishWolf]

It didn't for most though under Lopetegui did it?
Why did we concede 6 last time we played them?
Bad tactics? Bad team talk? Bad players?

We'd beat Palace a few days before to all but guarentee safety.
While it doesn't excuse the performance I think its understandable if there was a bit of a mental and physical hangover after a long draining relegation battle.

Saturday meanwhile. First homegame, everyone hopefully fresh and motivated for the season and eager to impress a new coach you'd imagine.

 

[Contrarian]

They did but not at the expense of defence. It's the speed they get forward which is the difference between Potter and De Zerbi but that incisive passing both men built into their teams.

I wouldn't say Brighton played the same way under Potter and De Zerbi, I think they're very different. What Brighton did fantastically well is they bought players that could play either way.

We don't have that ability at the club and having agent interference is never going to end well.

Yes, that's how I see it. Your last sentence describes exactly whyt Brighton are where they are and we are where we are. Players are not interchangeable plug and play clones. They all have their very individual strengths and weaknesses.

At one end of the spectrum, a manager has to get the team playing in the way that fits the players available. And at the other, the club decides on a way to play and acquires the right way to play it. It requires both. As it appears we are not making any new signings, then our manager has to find a way of playing that suits what he has. JL did this effectively.

A lot of our problems stem from a combination of dumping the identity formed under Nuno. And replacing it by spinning round in circles. Continual fire fighting from one crises to the next. O'Neil will probably go into survival mode soon enough. If he's got any sense, of course.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

We'd beat Palace a few days before to all but guarentee safety.
While it doesn't excuse the performance I think its understandable if there was a bit of a mental and physical hangover after a long draining relegation battle.

Saturday meanwhile. First homegame, everyone hopefully fresh and motivated for the season and eager to impress a new coach you'd imagine.

An excuse for Julen and crucifixion for O'Niell. Yet some of the same players switching off.

 

[DanishWolf]

An excuse for Julen and crucifixion for O'Niell. Yet some of the same players switching off.

But I don't think we switched off on Saturday. I think the players looked All over the place tactically when the Second Half started.
So my point is, that I don't think that was the problem.
Away at Brighton the way we setup can of course be questioned but for their goals that day our organisation isn't all over the place. Players just seem to switch off.

I dont want to excuse Lopetegui though. That 6-0 defeat was ultimately his responsibility.

 

[Contrarian]

They do though, their goals (other than Mitoma's) came on the transition. But Brighton under De Zerbi leave more gaps at the back and push more players forward, guess what? More goals (both for and against but a bigger difference in the positive column)

There was an instance on Saturday where we had a couple of players pushing down our right and Estupinan, rather than covering defensively, actually went forward. Brighton won the ball, got it to Estupinan and we were in all kinds of trouble. More risks

So their players are better at exploiting the gaps left by ours? And better at finishing them off?

I'm not arguing that the answer to our goal scoring is not getting players forward. I'm arguing that it's in that "easier said than done" or "devil is in the details" area. If it was that simple, then one of our last 4 (or is it 5 now?) managers would have just said "I've cracked it lads - you just need to get forward" and the goals would flow like water from a tap! Though actually, on Saturday, it did look a bit like O'Neil had said something like that to us. The result suggests there's more to it than "gerrit forward" . Players need to know when and where to go forward. And they have to be able to hit a barn door when getting forward creates a chance. Something this lot have consistently shown they can't do. They need to be able to get back fast, again, we've repeatedly seen players not do that. Whether it's cant do or won't do, doesn't matter, they aren't doing it so can't play that way.

As well as that, we have at least a couple of players whose brains seem to work in slow motion and also consistently shown their decisions making just isn't up to playing this way. They will invariably run into a crowd and miss the defence splitting pass.

 

[SA Wolf]

Why did we give this clown a 3-year contract?

Perhaps that's all he would accept. Perhaps Shi was so desperate to get Loppy out the door that he agreed to GON's request. After all, negotiation is a two-way street. I don't blame GON for insisting and accepting a three year contract. After all, he needs some stability, but whatever the reason, it looks as though we are stuck with him for the time being, so just hope he can get us scoring and stop conceding soft goals.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

But I don't think we switched off on Saturday. I think the players looked All over the place tactically when the Second Half started.
So my point is, that I don't think that was the problem.
Away at Brighton the way we setup can of course be questioned but for their goals that day our organisation isn't all over the place. Players just seem to switch off.

I dont want to excuse Lopetegui though. That 6-0 defeat was ultimately his responsibility.

Sorry, but our organisation is all over the place for most of those goals in the 6-0 defeat. Full backs not doing their jobs properly and defensive midfielders phoning it in.
You don't want to excuse him, but you just did excuse him.
I think there is clear evidence we switched off after half time. To say that it is tactical when players aren't running back to there positions; I'm sorry I don't buy it.
Maybe he gave a really ****ty team talk. I'm sure if the same result happened under Lopetegui you'd be blaming the players.

 

[DanishWolf]

Sorry, but our organisation is all over the place for most of those goals in the 6-0 defeat. Full backs not doing their jobs properly and defensive midfielders phoning it in.
You don't want to excuse him, but you just did excuse him.
I think there is clear evidence we switched off after half time. To say that it is tactical when players aren't running back to there positions; I'm sorry I don't buy it.
Maybe he gave a really ****ty team talk. I'm sure if the same result happened under Lopetegui you'd be blaming the players.

Fair point on Brighton away.

As for Saturday, players are trying to get back. They're just way too far up, and with no protection.

 

[Rubberball]

Sorry, but our organisation is all over the place for most of those goals in the 6-0 defeat. Full backs not doing their jobs properly and defensive midfielders phoning it in.
You don't want to excuse him, but you just did excuse him.
I think there is clear evidence we switched off after half time. To say that it is tactical when players aren't running back to there positions; I'm sorry I don't buy it.
Maybe he gave a really ****ty team talk. I'm sure if the same result happened under Lopetegui you'd be blaming the players.

Why are you harping on about a game last season when we were safe?

Look at the circumstance of both games.

First game of the season you'd expect all the players to be fit and firing. The start of the second half we were anything but. Then we played the rest of the half as individuals.

It is fair to assume whatever happened at HT affected the players deeply and caused irreparable damage for the rest of the game. To blame the players and say they were phoning it in is head in the sand stuff. The tactics were abysmal and De Zerbi is too good not to exploit them.

The game away at Brighton last season has absolutely no bearing on the game on Saturday.

 

[old wittonian]

Why are you harping on about a game last season when we were safe?

Look at the circumstance of both games.

First game of the season you'd expect all the players to be fit and firing. The start of the second half we were anything but. Then we played the rest of the half as individuals.

It is fair to assume whatever happened at HT affected the players deeply and caused irreparable damage for the rest of the game. To blame the players and say they were phoning it in is head in the sand stuff. The tactics were abysmal and De Zerbi is too good not to exploit them.

The game away at Brighton last season has absolutely no bearing on the game on Saturday.

I'll bet Semedo wasn't looking forward to Saturday.

 

[Rubberball]

I'll bet Semedo wasn't looking forward to Saturday.

That's up to the manager to give him confidence.

Clearly that HT break took all the players confidence away for some reason.

 

[UEAwolf]

Agree 100%

Sa’s passing isn’t the issue….. it is poor, but he isn’t the worst in the league. There are other keepers with bad passing.

The thing to do is play to peoples strengths - constantly passing the ball back to Sa who - whether down to poor technique or lack of confidence - was struggling was simply inviting pressure.

Patricio couldn't play out either - so Nuno got him kicking the ball out to Doherty on the right flank time and time again.

Forcing a team to play out from the back when neither Dawson or Sa are comfortable doing it is going to be a recipe for disaster. Either upgrade those players or change the style of play.

 

[Leigh72]

But I don't think we switched off on Saturday. I think the players looked All over the place tactically when the Second Half started.
So my point is, that I don't think that was the problem.
Away at Brighton the way we setup can of course be questioned but for their goals that day our organisation isn't all over the place. Players just seem to switch off.

I dont want to excuse Lopetegui though. That 6-0 defeat was ultimately his responsibility.

Watch the 2nd goal again , look at Nunes "effort" , Goal scorer is his man and is behind him initially, disgusting lack of effort and pride.
2nd goal kills us straight after half time.
These have put 10 past us in 2 games, where is the players own pride?

Coach dont get me wrong made a massive mistake in pushing us up the field, but these are international footballers, not 8 year olds learning the game, they should be able to keep a basic shape.
The defensive lines second half were a joke, no communication between them.

 

[Brian Law’s buses]

Brighton weren't commiting numbers forward for their goals.

They did not need to, unfortunately we had left mayor holes to be exploited due to our ridiculous over commitment of our midfield being so far forwards along with our defence being located in the opposition half, Dawson is never going to win in a foot race. When they did break our midfield just ambled back with no commitment to even catch or challenge.

 

[old wittonian]

That's up to the manager to give him confidence.

Clearly that HT break took all the players confidence away for some reason.

We don't know what happened at HT, it's all rumour and supposition. Maybe mistakes and lack of following the plan were forcibly pointed out.
I'm not defending GON. We just don't know. What we do know is that the first ten minutes were abysmal.
If the players disagreed with the tactics then they should point it out and provide alternatives. Maybe they did but GON wouldn’t listen. Who is forceful enough to do so? Dawson?
I recall at Watford a few seasons ago Roger Johnson changed tactics mid game and forcibly told Solbaken he had got them wrong. Who could do that today?

 

[old wittonian]

Watch the 2nd goal again , look at Nunes "effort" , Goal scorer is his man and is behind him initially, disgusting lack of effort and pride.
2nd goal kills us straight after half time.
These have put 10 past us in 2 games, where is the players own pride?

Coach dont get me wrong made a massive mistake in pushing us up the field, but these are international footballers, not 8 year olds learning the game, they should be able to keep a basic shape.
The defensive lines second half were a joke, no communication between them.

And JL clearly thought some players weren't up to his or EPL standards.

 

[Westbakejazz]

I’ve had to remove myself from here for a few days to let the dust settle, but this is by far the best example of the bipolar nature on here. O’Neil has gone from Pep on Monday to Saunders on Saturday, truth being somewhere in between

Let’s be totally honest here. Man u were poor, that team were set up in JLo fashion, Gon had no time with them to put his stamp on them. Saturday he tinkered a little bit with the setup. Let’s see how we play against Everton, a good bench marker surely

 

[wolfslair]

Let’s be totally honest here. Man u were poor, that team were set up in JLo fashion, Gon had no time with them to put his stamp on them. Saturday he tinkered a little bit with the setup. Let’s see how we play against Everton, a good bench marker surely

It also shows his people management skills as to get humped 4:1 at home isn’t going to leave anyone feeling positive!

I said the same as you regarding Man Utd, he could only have had time to do the motivating and cheer lead. One week on he had a chance and time to make tweaks and defensively we were significantly worse.

Semedo spent a significant amount of time higher up the pitch when set up in defensive phases on Saturday, when compared to utd and Rennes where he played extremely well and marshalled his channel well, he was so much deeper not allowing for balls in behind like Brighton exposed with far too much ease and regularity.

Play to strengths like another poster said, JL found a position and set of instructions that worked for Nelson in pre-season and UTD then GON clearly tweaked it and it didn’t go well……

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

I said we've got one of the worst managers in the league, and that O'Neil's next job would normally have been a mid-table Championship one, so I have no real love for him, but the criticism since Saturday is excessive IMO.

Firstly, people don't accept how good Brighton are. Estupinan and Mitoma is up there as the best left sides in the league. They could play for Man City and not impact them. In fact, you could argue you'd make them better.

De Zerbi is also a genius. He's an incredible coach. I won't commit to it because Europe will be a hindrance for them, but there's every chance they could be pushing top 4 or 6 this season.

If we lost to Liverpool, Newcastle, Chelsea etc. then there wouldn't be this reaction on here. I still think people think because it's just Brighton they don't get the credit they deserve.

As for O'Neil, we did have a game plan, it was the same as Brighton. We went man for man and had a go.

Now, you could definitely say that he was naive, because I've just said how good Brighton are and we went for them, but there was a plan in place.

It was obviously risky playing such a way with Dawson in defence, but isn't De Zerbi running the same risk with Milner and Dunk in his defence!?

Our plan worked as much as theirs did in the first half. They scored a goal that will be up for Goal of the Month, and we missed two 1v1s. We took a risk, but it worked. We should have been at least level, then the games changed.

If you're matching Brighton, you're doing something right, and we did.

The game was lost in 10 minutes. But is that O'Neil's fault? We were playing quite well, so I guess he said more of the same. He didn't change anything, but the players fell apart.

He took a lot of positives from Monday and ran with it.

He will have (should have) learnt that we can't be so open with this defence, so you adapt.

We lost 6-0 to Brighton last season without even laying a glove on them. This was 4-1 but it really wasn't a 4-1 game, even if we deserved to lose. We had moments, and missed the chances.

Unfortunately we're already at the stage where performances don't matter and it's only the result, but Saturday really wasn't as bad as it looked.

You should try and judge the process not only the outcomes. Mitoma doesn't score a worldie every week. (Hopefully) Silva and RAN don't miss 1v1s every week.

 

[wulfie88]