A Nuno Hangover

[OLDGOLD]

Ah, so it's Nuno's fault that we're not scoring as many as some people promised we would with Bruno.

No, keep up Flump...that particular error is Semedos fault....

 

[Contrarian]

No, keep up Flump...that particular error is Semedos fault....

That isn't too far off! He's been very good other than his finishing, should have scored 2 by now.

 

[Flump]

Why can't it be a mixture of low confidence in front of goal from a previous regime, the lack of investment in the team, bad luck in front of goal and current systems?

You seem to assume everyone argues in extremes and because people think a hangover from Nuno may be part of it, they think everything is Nuno's fault with no nuance. This is why you are so frustrated and wound up about anyone making an sort of suggestion that it may impact.

Most people here do argue in extremes! And adding things like "I guess I can't help you then" to your points hardly advertises the fact that you're trying to take a more nuanced view...

I think the issue is that a lot of people combine both chance creation and chance finishing into one simple metric - # of goals. Under Nuno we didn't create much, but what we did create was relatively often scored (at least in line with expectations). Under Bruno we're creating far more, but scoring less than we "should" be.

There's plenty of things we should be looking at to understand why, but the first thing I'd be checking is what type and quality of chance we're creating. It's all very well patting ourselves on the back having wracked up 5xG and 500 chances in the first three games, but aside from Traore 1 on 1s, I don't think many of them were clear cut opportunities. That could be a problem with Brunoball, rather than NunoMind. However, I'd still hold out hope of some reversion to the mean in future.

And given that we've already said that there was a clear turnaround in style of play in the first three games, it seems unlikely to me that there'd be such a knock in confidence specifically restricted to our finishing ability, attributable to Nuno, given finishing was never really a problem when he was actually here.

Having said all of that, we're only 6 games in, which is far too small a sample size to get worked up about in any direction.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

While l freely admit that he made more personnel changes and that may be relevant how long did it take Nuno to implement his style in the Chump?


Exactly.

Nuno has an absolutely enormous talent delta in the championship. Like one of the largest ever

 

[Dubwolf71]

Ah, so it's Nuno's fault that we're not scoring as many as some people promised we would with Bruno.

Well Mick was blamed by many for our relegation to League 1.

 

[SuperGran]

While l freely admit that he made more personnel changes and that may be relevant how long did it take Nuno to implement his style in the Chum

I don’t think you can compare the two nuno took over a team in the champ that didn’t have any particular style or way of playing he introduced his own players and worked hard to implement his system, the players didn’t resort back to lambert ball because there was no such thing.
Bruno took over a team that had 4 years of nuno that’s the difference

 

[Contrarian]

No. But I'm wondering how long people are going to keep blaming him for everything that isn't perfect.

How long did Nuno take to get his methods across in the chump?
How long did Tuchel take to get his methods across?
How long has Benitez taken to get his methods across?

Has Tuchel turned Werner into that lethal goal scorer he promised to be? No. Chelsea bought Lukaku, instead of deciding to wait X number of years. Chelsea's main problem, preventing them mounting a serious title challenge was goal scoring. Tuchel hasn't attempted to fix that by "methods". Rather than an endless stream of excuses for not buying another striker, they went out and got the one whose made a difference.

Though we are far from needing a striker good enough for a serious title challenge, I think we need another one good enough for a top 8 challenge.

 

[Flump]

Has Tuchel turned Werner into that lethal goal scorer he promised to be? No. Chelsea bought Lukaku, instead of deciding to wait X number of years. Chelsea's main problem, preventing them mounting a serious title challenge was goal scoring. Tuchel hasn't attempted to fix that by "methods". Rather than an endless stream of excuses for not buying another striker, they went out and got the one whose made a difference.

Take a look at Chelsea's form last season before and after appointing Tuchel...

 

[Pintandkebab]

Nuno is the best manager I have seen in my lifetime as a Wolves fan .

But It is obvious like Mourinho he is stuck with a certain style with no obvious plan B or C . I think we rode the wave with Nuno and the squad brought into the mentality but really when Jota and Doc left that was the start on the Cracks appearing .

We all want progression in Life never mind Wolves but sometimes you need to change direction to do this. Nuno unfortunately will not and at Spurs will be gone soon .

Will struggle IMO to reach the heights of Europa league anytime soon at Wolves so for me I am just happy that we had the one wave to ride as I can see us making up the numbers for a few more seasons yet. Unless Fosun's model/Project changes or they sell the club.

 

[The Wolf In The North]

Wolves' players under Nuno had a pack mentality, helped by the Portuguese connection, and by and large they wanted to play for him and followed his philosophy. Those who didn't buy in, like Cutrone, struggled. Spurs are a more disparate bunch who play for themselves, and they'll get him the sack without batting an eye. There's no pack there.

Nuno is an excellent coach, no one achieves back-to-back 7ths and cup runs with a less financially prominent club could be otherwise. But Spurs is not the place for him, the players aren't behind him.

Lage hasn't yet worked out how to get the best out of what he has, but it's not like these players have only ever worked under one coach before. They're professional enough to adapt to new ideas. It's up to Lage to implement his methods and he should have an easier job than Nuno in that respect, it's up to him to make it work.

 

[Lupus ad Penn]

Nuno built a new side with us, we ripped the Championship up, then quickly became a tough Premier league and European team. Even last season with no centre forward, for most of it, he found a way to keep us away from relegation. It was horrible to watch, ( especially as we weren’t there) but it was a necessary evil, to retain our place in the top division. He was shielded from major public scrutiny, because we are just a provincial football club.

He has inherited a poor side at Tottenham, but he now manages in the London goldfish bowl. The National press, tv pundits and internet sharks were ready waiting to pick him apart. His teams unimpressive performances despite winning the opening three games, didn’t prevent criticism,despite picking the dreaded Manager of the month award. The following three defeats have provoked a brutal reaction, I hope he survives it……….but he probably won’t.

He will remain in my eyes the best Manager we have have appointed since watching the club since the late 60s. He should have stayed to build another side, but he’s gone, so we move on.

 

[reanswolf]

What I still find baffling is that Nuno's system worked so incredibly superbly for us for 3 years, then started to crumble rather than progress.

Is it mainly down to an ageing midfield or defensive weakness, or down to losing players?

Ironically, Nuno has gone to a club with similar lack of dynamism in midfield at Spurs.

He still loves it here and is yet to sell his flat in Wolverhampton, though who knows he might do that tomorrow.

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

Theres a lot of truth in the OP
The players have been drilled for 3/4 seasons to play a certain way,they will need time to adapt to a more expansive style
We saw at the weekend how we just naturally dropped deeper and failed to press high, because thats the go to style for most of our squad
Bruno got them playing faster and pressing higher for the first 3/4 games and it looked good but was not getting results unfortunately
I hope we dont abandon that style for gritty 1-0 results when it just needs some better finishing to get right
Yes Bruno wasnt given the players he needed,and Nuno has inherited individuals more than a team,why he didnt try for Coady in the summer idk, as that was the leader type Spurs are missing,but thats their problem
I hope Bruno is given the time and patience needed to build on, but as we all know its a results driven game so who knows?

 

[Stafford]

We played some great stuff under Nuno, the best in my lifetime.

Things got stale. We had too many games over a short period for such a tiny squad. Injuries finally caught up and we became exhausted.
The one summer where we actually needed a rest became a mess.

 

[Andy]

It's tough managing a top 6 club!!!

It's tough managing Spurs too!

 

[Northampton_wolf]

Do we think we would have more points with Nuno than with Bruno?

Im doubtful,

Hes getting slack now at spurs for the last 3 games, and they were fortunate to beat us twice.

Bruno has had 6 games, its now i think the next 5 which will show what he has implememneted.

We could have neto Back by december will change dynamics again

 

[Stafford]

Do we think we would have more points with Nuno than with Bruno?

Im doubtful,

Hes getting slack now at spurs for the last 3 games, and they were fortunate to beat us twice.

Bruno has had 6 games, its now i think the next 5 which will show what he has implememneted.

We could have neto Back by december will change dynamics again

It's impossible to tell, my guess is yes, but's that's all it is.

Based on how many points he has achieved previously.

What we can't tell is if the team would feel refreshed or if there would still be a negative attitude/ tiredness around the place.

 

[Adrian_Monk]

No. These are not Mick McCarthy players, they're by and large seasoned internationals who are capable of playing different systems without the need to hide behind the excuse of tactics of a previous manager causing a hangover. They don't go away with their countries and bemoan the tactics of their international managers, and neither should they as it would make them one dimensional players.

Of course, it takes a while for ideas to become embedded into a cohesive system, and sometimes managers fail to do so altogether. It looks like that may be the case at Spurs, where there is clearly a toxic dressing room preventing different managers from having any success there. I doubt Nuno has had to deal with egos the size of Kane and Alli before and if you can't get them onside then you're a dead man walking.

Managers always want a sprinkling of players who map to their style of play to come in with them. Bruno didn't get that. Whilst it hadn't been pretty over the last few games, the jury is out, but he should be afforded some time given the circumstances.

 

[Contrarian]

I'm not sure we're all that far off things falling into place, anyway. The "final piece of the puzzle" for where we are now, is a goalscorer or two. Raul getting steadily back to form, is part of that. Neto to return. The team has shown it can already create chances without leaving defence wide open. Put those chances away... A fully fit Raul and Neto from game #1 and we'd be just a couple of points off the top, kind of like where Brighton are now. With no other changes needed. (though please improve our corners and free kicks, Mr Lage!)

This goalscorer we need - It doesn't necessarily have to be a striker. Goals from wing backs and central midfield would do the job, too, and are also sadly lacking at the moment (and not due to formation, but that the individuals just aren't goal scorers).

 

[Greeno]

Nuno just needed to go somewhere else. Not in this country.

We're all part grateful, part bitter, part willing him to be sacked, part wishing him a better situation than Spurs... it's still all very mixed up.

Spurs are a basket case. Their fans are pricks, they're self-entitled Londoners who don't actually win anything. They're a wannabe Chelsea with a swanky new ground.

Mourinho was never a match made in heaven and Nuno - for whatever reason hasn't been able to get his message across, or his tactics just don't work in the PL, anymore. The players (and fans) were probably over the moon to get rid of Mourinho and now they get a poor mans version of him, they must be pig sick.

They won the league in August (so i'm told), so watching them fall like Dele A... a stone is brilliant!

If they'd not cheated us, we'd be above them now. Let 'em rot.

 

[jrpb-3]

as has been said players have been well drilled for 3/4 years to play a certain style so will take time to adapt fully.

Think it's fairly easy to get ideas across and for players to learn and try new style during training and first few games, but once things start getting tough, concentration goes etc. It's very easy to revert/drift back to what you are used to. I.e. auto pilot don't have to think about it too much

Until the new system becomes the default autopilot setting then we're probably going to see some inconsistency and bits of Nunos system still hanging on

Nuno will have the same issues at Spurs

 

[wolfgar]

Nuno just needed to go somewhere else. Not in this country.

We're all part grateful, part bitter, part willing him to be sacked, part wishing him a better situation than Spurs... it's still all very mixed up.

Spurs are a basket case. Their fans are pricks, they're self-entitled Londoners who don't actually win anything. They're a wannabe Chelsea with a swanky new ground.

Mourinho was never a match made in heaven and Nuno - for whatever reason hasn't been able to get his message across, or his tactics just don't work in the PL, anymore. The players (and fans) were probably over the moon to get rid of Mourinho and now they get a poor mans version of him, they must be pig sick.

They won the league in August (so i'm told), so watching them fall like Dele A... a stone is brilliant!

If they'd not cheated us, we'd be above them now. Let 'em rot.

Was talking with a spurs fan in pre season who was saying that he thought Nuno was great for Wolves, but that he wouldn't last till Nov at Spurs. I was a little surprised by the negativity at the time, but I'm not sure I'd bet against him being right.

 

[kennyB]

The team and tactics and players Cullis had were a million times better than anything or anybody since with perhaps a few exceptions in the 70s/80s but certainly years ahead of anyone we have now. 7th for 2 seasons is not exceptional IMHO, champions/cup winners felt so much better. I love the team to win and perform well but that doesn't happen often enough for me. I do admit to being a dinosaur though!

 

[Ned]

The last 3 games we have eased up on the high press. Is this by design or is it the players falling back in to old habits? I don't want to point fingers but we've been defending deeper the last few games which has slowed the pace down and meant that the high press is impossible as a result.

Hopefully we beat Newcastle and go into the international break full of confidence and then the energy levels will increase with confidence again.

 

[Krispy Kreme]

While l freely admit that he made more personnel changes and that may be relevant how long did it take Nuno to implement his style in the Chump?


Exactly.

Not a like for like comparison is it really.

We were able to out perform championship sides because we had Neves Boly Jota etc. All were too good for the league.

Can't remember how long till we were actually playing well really tbh was it smooth sailing from the start?

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

Not a like for like comparison is it really.

We were able to out perform championship sides because we had Neves Boly Jota etc. All were too good for the league.

Can't remember how long till we were actually playing well really tbh was it smooth sailing from the start?

Certainly not right from the off,the pre season was a bit rough i recall,and the first few games were 1-0 with a few late goals,but we were fine afterwards,topping the table in October and never looking back really despite a 4-1 defeat to Villa

 

[whitnash wolf ex.dewsbury]

Certainly not right from the off,the pre season was a bit rough i recall,and the first few games were 1-0 with a few late goals,but we were fine afterwards,topping the table in October and never looking back really despite a 4-1 defeat to Villa

never dropped below 2 points per game average

 

[Jd132]

For me, our current malaise stems from neither Nuno or Bruno. It stems from the investment being pulled. Nuno had three years of solid investment and the team improved year on year. One year of sell to buy and it goes stale. Second year of sell to buy under Bruno and, surprise surprise, its still stale.

Since Sevilla, we have needed a new spine to the team, without selling our best players. Until Guo/Jeff cough up we will continue to be average.

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

For me, our current malaise stems from neither Nuno or Bruno. It stems from the investment being pulled. Nuno had three years of solid investment and the team improved year on year. One year of sell to buy and it goes stale. Second year of sell to buy under Bruno and, surprise surprise, its still stale.

Since Sevilla, we have needed a new spine to the team, without selling our best players. Until Guo/Jeff cough up we will continue to be average.

Watching the Prem years on TV, we saw how one year of lack of investment and selling your stars turned Blackburn from Champions to relegation in 2 seasons
You have to keep refreshing the squad or your in trouble,kids dont do it,you need oven ready quality ,even if its only one or two each season to keep the squad alive

 

[WolvTown]

The last 3 games we have eased up on the high press. Is this by design or is it the players falling back in to old habits? I don't want to point fingers but we've been defending deeper the last few games which has slowed the pace down and meant that the high press is impossible as a result.

Hopefully we beat Newcastle and go into the international break full of confidence and then the energy levels will increase with confidence again.

I expected and then noticed this too. Almost impossible for a team to continue with a high press week after week, when the core of the team from our previous manager are still the main players. Going to take a very long time for them to buy into it.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Nuno gone by Christmas I reckon.
Always thought it was a bizarre appointment.

If they can’t afford Adama Traore what makes you think they could afford to pay nuno off lol levy will be fuming 2 years almost left on his deal.... talking about 15m I bet. More debt for the spurs club haha idiots

 

[wolfgar]

I thought at the time the prospect of Nuno going to Palace seemed a bit odd, but in reality he'd have probably been far better off over there than at Spurs. Their fans would have certainly have been far more patient and behind him and he wouldn't have had to deal with all the nonsense he probably is at Spurs.

 

[Ned]

I thought at the time the prospect of Nuno going to Palace seemed a bit odd, but in reality he'd have probably been far better off over there than at Spurs. Their fans would have certainly have been far more patient and behind him and he wouldn't have had to deal with all the nonsense he probably is at Spurs.

Exactly this. Spurs was always such a strange choice and poor fit, especially when the fans got #NotNuno trending.

Palace would have been happy and better off with him than they are Vieira. But wasn’t Nuno allegedly a ***** throughout the interview process and didn’t really want the job?

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

What I still find baffling is that Nuno's system worked so incredibly superbly for us for 3 years, then started to crumble rather than progress.

Is it mainly down to an ageing midfield or defensive weakness, or down to losing players?

Ironically, Nuno has gone to a club with similar lack of dynamism in midfield at Spurs.

He still loves it here and is yet to sell his flat in Wolverhampton, though who knows he might do that tomorrow.

Because teams work you out in the Prem, sit back and Wolves can do absolutely nothing to do.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

No. These are not Mick McCarthy players, they're by and large seasoned internationals who are capable of playing different systems without the need to hide behind the excuse of tactics of a previous manager causing a hangover. They don't go away with their countries and bemoan the tactics of their international managers, and neither should they as it would make them one dimensional players.

Of course, it takes a while for ideas to become embedded into a cohesive system, and sometimes managers fail to do so altogether. It looks like that may be the case at Spurs, where there is clearly a toxic dressing room preventing different managers from having any success there. I doubt Nuno has had to deal with egos the size of Kane and Alli before and if you can't get them onside then you're a dead man walking.

Managers always want a sprinkling of players who map to their style of play to come in with them. Bruno didn't get that. Whilst it hadn't been pretty over the last few games, the jury is out, but he should be afforded some time given the circumstances.

I mean it has been 1 manager who didn't have success at Spurs, the one prior took them to a Champions League final without buying a player.

 

[Stratman Wolves]

He does have to work with the same squad, and I genuinely believe managers need far more time than they're usually given before being judged.

BUT it's really tiresome having heard from games 1-3 how amazing Bruno is to have completely turned around the club, and then from games 4-6 hear the same people blaming Nuno for there not having been more progress.

But this isn't a blame Nuno thread. People are discussing if tactically and developmentally from a coaching standpoint that our current players are being impacted by Nuno. That doesn't mean the losses are "Nuno's fault". A ctrl+f will find that your post was the first one to mention "fault". We are just discussing if such coaching input lingers and takes players a while to shift away from.

Let's not look for issues where there are none, there's enough infighting as is.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

If Nuno is a genius at implementing a tactical style can someone explain why two of the best attacking players in the world look like cloggers in his system? Would have thought he'd have them roaring

 

[Flump]

But this isn't a blame Nuno thread. People are discussing if tactically and developmentally from a coaching standpoint that our current players are being impacted by Nuno. That doesn't mean the losses are "Nuno's fault". A ctrl+f will find that your post was the first one to mention "fault". We are just discussing if such coaching input lingers and takes players a while to shift away from.

Yes, but there are words and phrases that have a similar meaning - which won't show up if you just do a ctrl+f.

For example, the OP said:

Is is blasphemous to suggest we have a Nuno hangover that is affecting our ability to put the ball in the net?

Now that might not use the word "fault", but if we're saying that the reason we're not scoring is a "Nuno hangover", then I'd say that's pretty much analagous.

 

[Golden_Wolf]

 

[Stratman Wolves]

Now that might not use the word "fault", but if we're saying that the reason we're not scoring is a "Nuno hangover", then I'd say that's pretty much analagous.

There is nuance here. If players struggle to adapt themselves to new coaching methods and approaches, which may take time to fully integrate and practice, I dont think that blame falls on the previous manager. But it appears discussing this aspect of player development makes it seem like Nuno is being blamed at large to you?