3-4-3 or 3-5-2? (5-2-3 or 5-3-2 for the pedants)

WolfLing

WolfLing

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3-4-3 (5-2-3) seems to bring out the best in Traore and Neves.

3-5-2 (5-3-2) seems to bring out the best in Jota and Doherty.

What's your preferred formation and why?
 
Have to say the 2 up top, because Jota and Jimenez close together can create some real magic.
But then...Traore is exciting every time he gets on the ball.

Sticking with the 3-5-2, but on the understanding that we don’t sink to our penalty box when playing it.
Can quickly become a turgid affair when that happens.
 
I like both and it does come down to the opponent as to which works best and the personnel we use for the formations.

I do think Jota is the best CF in the league when we play the 352 and we are more dangerous as a result.

343 doesnt suit Jota at all though but it does suit Neto and Traore who have played brilliantly in it so its good that we have personnel in the squad to play both formations.

I do think 343 is more about crosses into the box however and my one issue with it is that we never have enough players in the box to capitalize on it
 
Horses for Courses.

If teams are going to load the midfield (as Nuno knew Norwich would yesterday) the 3-5-2.

For more expansive play then 3-4-3.

We need to be one of those teams where opposition don't know how we'll line up. Works better for us.
 
Interchange. We tend to pick one and stick to it for a long period and become predictable. It would be nice for us to begin switching between the two depending on the situation.
 
Derbywolf85 said:
We need to be one of those teams where opposition don't know how we'll line up. Works better for us.
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Absolutely. Predictability is one of our few but glaring flaws.

We'll never know how yesterday's match would have panned out if we'd gone 3-4-3 but I would bet good money Farke set up his team to deal with that, and Traore, rather than Jota in a two and then three in midfield.

Mix it up, keep them guessing.

But, in reply to the original post, I always prefer seeing 3-5-2, with at least one pushing up from the midfield and Jota more central.
 
AlexWolvesHD said:
I do think 343 is more about crosses into the box however and my one issue with it is that we never have enough players in the box to capitalize on it
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An excellent point.

I'd like to see a poacher/target man type of striker in the squad as well as the options we have. Someone to get on the end of crosses would be a great option from the bench if we need a goal and have Traore and Neto delivering them!

Raul can be that player, but he's so involved in the build-up at times it is impossible for him to then get on the end of crosses too!
 
I prefer 3-4-3. I think we play better with that formation. If we play 3-5-2 I think we would need a central midfielder who is better going forward and getting in the box. Dendoncker tries to do that, but I never feel like he is a goal threat or will pick a defence splitting pass.
 
clivewolves said:
I prefer 3-4-3. I think we play better with that formation. If we play 3-5-2 I think we would need a central midfielder who is better going forward and getting in the box. Dendoncker tries to do that, but I never feel like he is a goal threat or will pick a defence splitting pass.
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I think Neto could end up being that player longer term.
 
I prefer 352 I love seeing Raul and Jota close together.
I think with 343 we are too lop sided in our build up as everything goes down the right side. Jota isn't effective out wide. I also think the gaps between our forward players and midfield is bigger and Raul gets isolated.
I feel the only player benefitting from 343 is Traore where as everyone else looks better in 352
 
Ewok vs Wolf said:
I prefer 352 I love seeing Raul and Jota close together.
I think with 343 we are too lop sided in our build up as everything goes down the right side. Jota isn't effective out wide. I also think the gaps between our forward players and midfield is bigger and Raul gets isolated.
I feel the only player benefitting from 343 is Traore where as everyone else looks better in 352
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I think Neves looks better too, as it pushes him further up the pitch.

Although he was better in a 3 yesterday than he was at the start of the season, as he wasn't playing on Coady's toes.
 
Ewok vs Wolf said:
I prefer 352 I love seeing Raul and Jota close together.
I think with 343 we are too lop sided in our build up as everything goes down the right side. Jota isn't effective out wide. I also think the gaps between our forward players and midfield is bigger and Raul gets isolated.
I feel the only player benefitting from 343 is Traore where as everyone else looks better in 352
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Hard to disagree with any of this. So with that in mind....how come we were so **** the start of the season in that shape? Just down to individual form of those available? Injuries to Doc and Jota throwing rhythm off?
Could it just be that we’re now seeing our best version of this formation? Fully fit Jota and Doc, but with the bedrock of our best defensive and technical/possession back 3.
It is very different now, being able to defend with no howlers from Donk AND play out from the back without Bennet sending it back to Coady every time.
 
Depends who we play.
If we get an early goal then 3-5-2 means we control midfield, we are more difficult to break down and I am always confident once we are in front we wont concede
If we dont score then 3-4-3 but I think the reliance has to be that we dont give Adama just one person to aim at via crosses. I am glad he mixes it up though means we become more unpredictable and harder to plan against
 
With Boly at RCB,I do think that Doc could afford to go a little bit more adventuroes even if Traore plays in front of him in a 3-4-3.

I´m sorry,I just fail to bench a player like Adama Traore.
 
Ewok vs Wolf said:
I prefer 352 I love seeing Raul and Jota close together.
I think with 343 we are too lop sided in our build up as everything goes down the right side. Jota isn't effective out wide. I also think the gaps between our forward players and midfield is bigger and Raul gets isolated.
I feel the only player benefitting from 343 is Traore where as everyone else looks better in 352
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Neves has looked better generally in the 3-4-3.

I'd argue the only person that looks better in the 3-5--2 is Jota.
Doc has played both well and badly in both systems.
 
we need to be able to play both systems as and when the need arises, as to which we should play more difficult to say as we've had good and bad games with both systems

Jota seems to have scored most of his goals with 3-5-2 I think, but obviously Traore more dangerous in the 3-4-3 system though can play the wing back role in a 3-5-2

It will be interesting to see which system Podence best fits into
 
I guarantee whatever is said if it goes pear-shaped later the 'hindsight' brigade will be out in force decrying what was said.
 
3-5-2 against the better teams or ones that flood the midfield. We look much more solid and our wing-backs and the supporting CM flood the box which helps.

Against teams we should decimate, like West Ham for example, who just offer nothing worthwhile in midfield, 343.
 
You can play each system in different ways especially when the coach is looking for different qualities within a player.
We saw with Doherty against Norwich with his movement into the final third with and without the ball how that leads to better combination play and ball retention in key areas of the field.
 
According to whoscored, the win against Norwich was only our second in a 3-5-2 in the premier league this season. The other one being Man City away.

The stats are
3-5-2 P10 won 2 drawn 5 lost 3
3-4-3 P17 won 7 drawn 7 lost 3(I've included both 3-4-1-2 and 3-4-2-1 under this bracket for simplicity)

For me the 3-5-2 only works when we are the counter attacking side. We struggle to break the more defensive minded teams using the 3-5-2.
 
AlexWolvesHD said:
I like both and it does come down to the opponent as to which works best and the personnel we use for the formations.

I do think Jota is the best CF in the league when we play the 352 and we are more dangerous as a result.

343 doesnt suit Jota at all though but it does suit Neto and Traore who have played brilliantly in it so its good that we have personnel in the squad to play both formations.

I do think 343 is more about crosses into the box however and my one issue with it is that we never have enough players in the box to capitalize on it
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This... I think opposition managers would be happy to let Traore cross as we never pack the box anyway. Just put two on Jiminez. Personally I’d like us to have Neto on and the forwards switch positions and formation at will. Neto dropping into the hole behind the front two or eg, Adama / Jota pulling fullbacks in front of centre half’s and allowing over/underlapping runs. I feel we need more unpredictability.
 
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[QUOTE="WolfInSheep'sClothing, post: 6038788, member: 8782]

For me the 3-5-2 only works when we are the counter attacking side. We struggle to break the more defensive minded teams using the 3-5-2.[/QUOTE]

Good stat finding. So our only 352 wins are against sides that don’t defend, for very different reasons.
Which kind of implies we won’t get the goals and results we need against sides like Sheff Utd, Newcastle, Burnley.
Still think our overall play in 352 is now much better because of the personnel at the back. It may be that we’re able to create from a solid possession base against deep sitting teams. Donk is probably weakest link in that respect, gets further up the pitch but not really any better than Boly or Saiss on the ball.
 
JonahWolf said:
Hard to disagree with any of this. So with that in mind....how come we were so **** the start of the season in that shape? Just down to individual form of those available? Injuries to Doc and Jota throwing rhythm off?
Could it just be that we’re now seeing our best version of this formation? Fully fit Jota and Doc, but with the bedrock of our best defensive and technical/possession back 3.
It is very different now, being able to defend with no howlers from Donk AND play out from the back without Bennet sending it back to Coady every time.
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I think that sums a lot of it up. Jota and Doc are key to that formation and neither were on fire early on, especially with Europa taking its toll. The back line is better now too, way more balanced.

We got seven draws in those first eleven games, six of them 1-1, always playing catch up, never dominating. A sharp Jota may have been the edge that we needed, or a better/luckier summer purchase than Cutrone. We'll never know.

Got to bear in mind that the opposition in August was generally better than Norwich as well. They put us under no pressure yesterday, and when they did have the ball they didn't have a Richarlison or Barnes or Abraham up front to push our midfield pivot back ten yards, which is when we become overly defensive.
 
I feel we play better as a team collectively with 3-5-2 - Jota and Jiminez link up a lot better and Doherty and Jonny have more freedom to bomb forward. It also allows us to keep 3 midfielders happy but short of cover in the middle with subs.

However, if we want to get the most out of Traore, maybe even Neto, then we need to play 3-4-3 as well.

Could easily start with one formation and switch with subs and depending on the opposition, our squad is very adaptable and most players able to play various roles.
 
If I were in control of the team -and let's all be thankful I'm not- the midfield and defence would retain the same shame no matter what. The 3-4 of the 3-4-3. With Neves told to keep playing further up the field. The front three would be where the change comes in, and we would be drilled and comfortable with it changing throughout the game. Sometimes a central striker with two wide forwards. Sometimes a more narrow front three. Sometimes two up front with one in the hole. I think that's the natural evolution/compromise between the two versions of this team. But again, I'm not the coach.

Based on Nuno's preferences, I suspect what we'll see most often is a lopsided 343 with Jota allowed to play more centrally, closer to Jimenez, but Traore staying further wide. And 352 when Traore or Jimenez need a rest.
 
JayStringer said:
Based on Nuno's preferences, I suspect what we'll see most often is a lopsided 343 with Jota allowed to play more centrally, closer to Jimenez, but Traore staying further wide. And 352 when Traore or Jimenez need a rest.
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With Vinagre's development in the next few years, we might be seeing Jota coming inside more anyway.

In a 3-4-3, Traore tends to stay very wide on the right, with Doc cutting inside more. On the left, Jota and Jonny both like to come inside, so tend to chop and change and take it in turns to go outside and inside.

Vinagre tends to be more of an overlapping wing-back given he's very left-footed. So that will push Jota inside more anyway.

We have so many variations of how we can setup now, it's great!
 
Either or.

Great to have options for different opponents.
 
Like others I think it is dependant on opposition and who we have available/in form.

I do prefer the the 352 set up more like 3412 though,
 
I think the 3-5-2 has more potential. More control in midfield and plays more to our starting XI strengths, except Traore (although both Neto and Podence also fit better into the 3-4-3). Be very interesting to see what type of players we sign in the summer. I think that will tell us which formation Nuno is looking to stick with. The 3-5-2 is desperate for a pacey play-maker as one of the midfield 3 who can then almost fit in behind to make it a 3-4-1-2.
 
I think someone else has said it but I do wonder whether Jota would suit the 3-4-3 better than he has, if he had a left-footed wing back outside him. Vinagre making the breakthrough we all want him to make, would be an absolute game-changer for us, I feel.

And I agree with the view that we should have a target man option, to make the most of the fact that Traore gets a cross in most of the time. It’s something that frustrates me, that the opposition literally can’t stop him crossing, and we don’t have anyone waiting for the ball in the spot where he seems to put it very regularly.

However, these two scenarios are mutually exclusive, which is also a pain.

Pretty sure the answer is maintaining the ability to play both formations, and keep acquiring players who can provide different solutions (as Nuno says).

And train the players we have, to play in more positions.
 
Any formation that can successfully accommodate Adama, Jota and Jiminez. Oh and also Donk (or a n other) in midfield to help Neves and Moutinho. Not sure that's possible without going to a back 4, etc. Cheque please!
 
The two formations are variations on a theme and aren't radically different. The main difference is the personnel on the pitch - play MGW (or someone of that style) as the extra midfielder and you've almost got something in between the two. You can play either formation in different ways, and either can be more or less attacking or defensive.

The extra man in midfield certainly helps against some sides, whilst the threat of the three up top can prevent others from being too gung ho. It's a horses for courses decision, and we've now got the personnel to switch between the two mid game.

The irony for me is that Dendoncker, breaking from midfield, would be ideal for getting on the end of some of those crosses from Adama.

I don't buy into this "3-5-2 doesn't suit Diogo" argument either. He looked to be playing just as wide at times yesterday as he would with 3 up top. Perhaps he doesn't see as much of the ball if we're using Traore as the main outlet, but that can be worked on.
 
Incognito said:
Any formation that can successfully accommodate Adama, Jota and Jiminez. Oh and also Donk (or a n other) in midfield to help Neves and Moutinho. Not sure that's possible without going to a back 4, etc. Cheque please!
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That would be 352 with traore at right wing back.
But you lose doc :(
 
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