Lopetegui

[SingYourHeartsOut]

We don’t agree……and that’s ok although the onus is on you to prove your point and not the other way around.
I have a different threshold/yardstick on what is reasonable proof than you.
I certainly am not going to call somebody a liar a that easily. That’s not cool at all.

For Jeff to deliberately lie to JL would be asinine…….in the small world of football, where everybody knows each other, it would be stupid and bad business to lie. Every player, agent, coaches, assistants etc would very cagey or reluctant about dealing with Wolves .

Anyway, he’s now history to Wolves.

Just more waffle. I don't have a copy of Lopetegui's contract or minutes from Wolves board meetings. I can't give you unequivocal truth, I can only look at what we do know and draw reasonable conclusions.

Let's start from. Do you accept that Lopetegui (and Hobbs) were told that a certain transfer budget was available for the Summer and that it turned out that was not the case?

The key point in my mind from the day Lopetegui left has always been the same. Blame the bloke who just left is a very common and simple practice - but what about if the real problem is the bloke who's still in the room?

 

[VancouverWolf]

Just more waffle. I don't have a copy of Lopetegui's contract or minutes from Wolves board meetings. I can't give you unequivocal truth, I can only look at what we do know and draw reasonable conclusions.

Let's start from. Do you accept that Lopetegui (and Hobbs) were told that a certain transfer budget was available for the Summer and that it turned out that was not the case?

The key point in my mind from the day Lopetegui left has always been the same. Blame the bloke who just left is a very common and simple practice - but what about if the real problem is the bloke who's still in the room?

I respect you enough to not answer you and I could reply but to what end? We most likely won’t agree.
Is that ok?

 

[WickedWolfie]

We don’t agree……and that’s ok although the onus is on you to prove your point and not the other way around.
I have a different threshold/yardstick on what is reasonable proof than you.
I certainly am not going to call somebody a liar a that easily. That’s not cool at all.

For Jeff to deliberately lie to JL would be asinine…….in the small world of football, where everybody knows each other, it would be stupid and bad business to lie. Every player, agent, coaches, assistants etc would very cagey or reluctant about dealing with Wolves .

Anyway, he’s now history to Wolves.

Since when is the onus on anyone to prove any point on an internet forum other, perhaps, than in the event of any litigation or other legal consequences arising from comments made?

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I respect you enough to not answer you and I could reply but to what end? We most likely won’t agree.
Is that ok?

Entirely your choice of course. There's no need to enter into a discussion on a discussion board if you don't want to. Anyone else can read my evidence and your assertion and make their own mind up.

 

[VancouverWolf]

Since when is the onus on anyone to prove any point on an internet forum other, perhaps, than in the event of any litigation or other legal consequences arising from comments made?

Can’t quiet remember off the top of my head….will have to check the logs.

 

[Eastern Wolf]

He did get funds though. He just thought he took as far as he possibly could with those funds. He was probably right, but his reputation was more important than the club, that much seems very clear to me.

If he was promised funds in the summer as well, then it is a little bit scabby, but at the end of the day, it got him through the door and he miraculously kept us up. I don't fully believe Balague anyway, he's JL's mouthpiece and clearly a bit of a snake.

Regarding his reputation; by leaving days before the start of the season, it didn't exactly enhance it. I'd say by doing what he did - having no qualms about leaving a club in the lurch - harmed his reputation and hence no one touched him until now.
Those that support his actions by saying he was allegedly "lied" to forget that he signed a contract and was paid extremely handsomely (as was his coaching team that included his son).
I'd say that had he stayed we would probably be in the same position as now but his reputation would not have been harmed given the squad situation. He could then leave us at the end of this season in a proper and honourable way.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

He left little old Wolves after he performed the miracle noone would have believed possible and kept them up. Brownie points for that. He left with a monster pay out (most likely), enough to keep him going while he looked for another job more suited to what he perceived as his elevated status. Along came West Ham. In London. Massive stadium. Much more fashionable club. Let's face it, Wolves were just a stepping stone. Shi is no saint, but nor is JL.

 

[loppers86]

I dislike West Ham and Lopetegui, so I hope he does really badly.

he wont

 

[Wolf316]

Regarding his reputation; by leaving days before the start of the season, it didn't exactly enhance it. I'd say by doing what he did - having no qualms about leaving a club in the lurch - harmed his reputation and hence no one touched him until now.
Those that support his actions by saying he was allegedly "lied" to forget that he signed a contract and was paid extremely handsomely (as was his coaching team that included his son).
I'd say that had he stayed we would probably be in the same position as now but his reputation would not have been harmed given the squad situation. He could then leave us at the end of this season in a proper and honourable way.

He didn’t leave days before the season started.

If the emotional morons on Twitter are anything to go by he'll be booed relentlessly because "he wanted Aaron Cresswell to replace Ait-Nouri and we've got a better manager now anyway."

I wonder if they actually believe this stuff?

There were fans on there yesterday saying anyone could have kept us up last year so yes I think they believe that stuff.

 

[WickedWolfie]

He left little old Wolves after he performed the miracle noone would have believed possible and kept them up. Brownie points for that. He left with a monster pay out (most likely), enough to keep him going while he looked for another job more suited to what he perceived as his elevated status. Along came West Ham. In London. Massive stadium. Much more fashionable club. Let's face it, Wolves were just a stepping stone. Shi is no saint, but nor is JL.

A question for you though: do you believe that JL would have left had the investment he had, or at least believed that he had, been promised, actually happened? I don't.

 

[WickedWolfie]

He didn’t leave days before the season started.

There were fans on there yesterday saying anyone could have kept us up last year so yes I think they believe that stuff.

The same utterly bs attempted rewriting of history that you see from some on here then. The same clowns were probably writing in November 22 that we were already down.

 

[wolfslair]

He didn’t leave days before the season started.

There were fans on there yesterday saying anyone could have kept us up last year so yes I think they believe that stuff.

The club by their own admission asked him to stay till they found the replacement…..

Yet again Jeff the Teflon don escapes criticism for the actions and decisions of the club as they had the happy clappers who won’t accept fosun have been more miss than hit the last few years were already to accept and push the narrative for them that someone else was the villain for leaving so close to the season……

 

[Mutchy]

The same utterly bs attempted rewriting of history that you see from some on here then. The same clowns were probably writing in November 22 that we were already down.

Or when GON took over...

 

[WickedWolfie]

Or when GON took over...

I for one thought that giving GON the job would end in tears. I admitted that was wrong - he isn't perfect and is still learning but is much better than l initially thought - and certainly haven't repeated it since.

I rather thought that someone acknowledging and learning from their mistakes was a positive thing. Trying to use their past mistakes to block and/or devalue their opinions on other issues isn't so positive. That's something that l admit to having done myself in the past. I try to avoid doing so now but certainly can't guarantee that l don't slip.

Anyway, you have a good day - l need to go and do some travel admin soon....

 

[wolfslair]

I for one thought that giving GON the job would end in tears. I admitted that was wrong - he isn't perfect and is still learning but is much better than l initially thought - and certainly haven't repeated it since.

I rather thought that someone acknowledging and learning from their mistakes was a positive thing. Trying to use their past mistakes to block and/or devalue their opinions on other issues isn't so positive. That's something that l admit to having done myself in the past. I try to avoid doing so now but certainly can't guarantee that l don't slip.

Anyway, you have a good day - l need to go and do some travel admin soon....

I think opinions getting de-valued or it being used as a way to belittle someone for the GON stuff some of us posted will be used for some time despite many of us holding our hands up to it a Fair few times is going to happen till the end of time……..

As sometimes when the person has no answer it is the easiest way for them to farm cheap likes and garner support and also for them to try and cut off a debate/discussion they are on the back foot with

Hahaha

 

[Jefe]

Regarding his reputation; by leaving days before the start of the season, it didn't exactly enhance it. I'd say by doing what he did - having no qualms about leaving a club in the lurch - harmed his reputation and hence no one touched him until now. Those that support his actions by saying he was allegedly "lied" to forget that he signed a contract and was paid extremely handsomely (as was his coaching team that included his son). I'd say that had he stayed we would probably be in the same position as now but his reputation would not have been harmed given the squad situation. He could then leave us at the end of this season in a proper and honourable way.

If you believe Lopetegui's side of the story, he did not leave because he was dissatisfied with the state of the squad, but simply because he was lied to three times by his chairman, irreparably violating trust; that is the only stated reason for his departure. You may be right that leaving so close to the start of the season was deleterious to his reputation with some (perhaps that was the reason why his move to AC Milan was successfully boycotted), but I'm going to have to pick you up on a couple of things.

He decided to leave more than a fortnight before the season started, and agreed to preside over the team until a successor was found. He actually wanted to leave much earlier than that, but Hobbs convinced him to stay on; "days" on your part implies he downed tools out of nowhere and buggered off with less than a week to go, which is factually inaccurate on both counts. It baffles me how this misinformation continues to be peddled on this forum having been debunked so many times.

Also in my book, an employee's payment status does not give an employer the right to abuse their trust, and lie to them in a way that impacts their capacity to do their job - or in a way that unilaterally reneges on an agreed course of action. I don't care if you're the manager or the tea lady. Lopetegui also agreed to less than a year's salary as severance, which I think is reasonable for a man with more than two years left on his contract, as part of a mutual termination.

 

[wolfslair]

If you believe Lopetegui's side of the story, he did not leave because he was dissatisfied with the state of the squad, but simply because he was lied to three times by his chairman, irreparably violating trust; that is the only stated reason for his departure. You may be right that leaving so close to the start of the season was deleterious to his reputation with some (perhaps that was the reason why his move to AC Milan was successfully boycotted), but I'm going to have to pick you up on a couple of things.

He decided to leave more than a fortnight before the season started, and agreed to preside over the team until a successor was found; "days" on your part implies he downed tools and buggered off with less than a week to go, which is factually inaccurate on both counts. It baffles me how this misinformation continues to be peddled on this forum having been debunked so many times.

Also in my book, an employee's payment status does not give an employer the right to abuse their trust, and lie to them in a way that impacts their capacity to do their job - or in a way that unilaterally reneges on an agreed course of action. I don't care if you're the manager or the tea lady. Lopetegui also agreed to less than a year's salary as severance, which I think is reasonable for a man with more than two years left on his contract, as part of a mutual termination.

Because the people who refuse to accept the club and Jeff can do no wrong don’t like the narrative that the club were responsible for JL leaving on the date he did!

Even though the club have said they were the ones who asked him to stay on.

Remember to many, critical views and not agreeing with everything the club does makes you a bad fan and “not a person I want in the trenches” which was much used phrase at one time……

 

[WickedWolfie]

Because the people who refuse to accept the club and Jeff can do no wrong don’t like the narrative that the club were responsible for JL leaving on the date he did!

Even though the club have said they were the ones who asked him to stay on.

Remember to many, critical views and not agreeing with everything the club does makes you a bad fan and “not a person I want in the trenches” which was much used phrase at one time……

I think that you mean "any wrong" in your first para otherwise there is a double negative which significantly changes the meaning. I agree your post otherwise.

 

[North West Wanderer]

I'll be interested to see what the crowd reaction is to him when he comes to Molineux. I expect50/50. Half appreciating him for keeping us up and half jeering because he walked out. I wonder if he'd sell us Bowen?!

he’d be expecting reverence.

 

[North West Wanderer]

Because the people who refuse to accept the club and Jeff can do no wrong don’t like the narrative that the club were responsible for JL leaving on the date he did!

Even though the club have said they were the ones who asked him to stay on.

Remember to many, critical views and not agreeing with everything the club does makes you a bad fan and “not a person I want in the trenches” which was much used phrase at one time……

you keep making these sweeping statements, WHO think that the club and Shi can do no wrong? Or is it just they don’t go on about it every bloody day on here!

 

[wolfslair]

If you believe Lopetegui's side of the story, he did not leave because he was dissatisfied with the state of the squad, but simply because he was lied to three times by his chairman, irreparably violating trust; that is the only stated reason for his departure. You may be right that leaving so close to the start of the season was deleterious to his reputation with some (perhaps that was the reason why his move to AC Milan was successfully boycotted), but I'm going to have to pick you up on a couple of things.

He decided to leave more than a fortnight before the season started, and agreed to preside over the team until a successor was found; "days" on your part implies he downed tools and buggered off with less than a week to go, which is factually inaccurate on both counts. It baffles me how this misinformation continues to be peddled on this forum having been debunked so many times.

Also in my book, an employee's payment status does not give an employer the right to abuse their trust, and lie to them in a way that impacts their capacity to do their job - or in a way that unilaterally reneges on an agreed course of action. I don't care if you're the manager or the tea lady. Lopetegui also agreed to less than a year's salary as severance, which I think is reasonable for a man with more than two years left on his contract, as part of a mutual termination.

I wonder if many of these people who agreed with that post would stay in a job where they agreed an action plan for improvement and to allow them to do their jobs was routinely changed and seemingly this person then had the right to feel they were lied to…..

I bet none of them would as trust means the world in a results based business! How can a manager trust the word of a club to back them if the results turn if the club didn’t deliver on their agreement for squad improvement and investment and changed the line on it MULTIPLE times…..

 

[WickedWolfie]

he’d be expecting reverence.

Having been a former Real Madrid manager who coached Sevilla in games against them l seriously doubt that lol.....

 

[wolfslair]

you keep making these sweeping statements, WHO think that the club and Shi can do no wrong? Or is it just they don’t go on about it every bloody day on here!

I am not getting into public and direct call outs……. That isn’t fair or correct and poor form on your part to ask for it…..

And many do defend the club at every turn even refusing to accept a quote from the club as proof they were wrong.

 

[Minimalist]

If you believe Lopetegui's side of the story, he did not leave because he was dissatisfied with the state of the squad, but simply because he was lied to three times by his chairman, irreparably violating trust; that is the only stated reason for his departure. You may be right that leaving so close to the start of the season was deleterious to his reputation with some (perhaps that was the reason why his move to AC Milan was successfully boycotted), but I'm going to have to pick you up on a couple of things.

He decided to leave more than a fortnight before the season started, and agreed to preside over the team until a successor was found; "days" on your part implies he downed tools and buggered off with less than a week to go, which is factually inaccurate on both counts. It baffles me how this misinformation continues to be peddled on this forum having been debunked so many times.

Also in my book, an employee's payment status does not give an employer the right to abuse their trust, and lie to them in a way that impacts their capacity to do their job - or in a way that unilaterally reneges on an agreed course of action. I don't care if you're the manager or the tea lady. Lopetegui also agreed to less than a year's salary as severance, which I think is reasonable for a man with more than two years left on his contract, as part of a mutual termination.

We will probably never really know the truth.
I don’t think it’s necessary unreasonable for the owners to “ move the goalposts “ circumstances do change. I bet Lopetegui has had conversations with players that “work” for him, then not followed through… Jimenez certainly looked like he expected to get a farewell 10 minutes on that last home game.

And I ain’t buying his comment that he wasn’t doubting the quality of the squad.. he very clearly thought we’d be in a relegation battle, and he thought if we went down it would look bad on him.

 

[Mugwump]

I cant believe there is anyone who seriously thinks Lopetegui wasnt lied to. Like i said, i get people being annoyed at his carry on, i was as well, but throwing at him that he left days before the season is ignoring that he was going to go earlier, but Hobbs asked him to stay on and keep preparing the team, which he did in a professional manner.

 

[WickedWolfie]

I wonder if many of these people who agreed with that post would stay in a job where they agreed an action plan for improvement and to allow them to do their jobs was routinely changed and seemingly this person then had the right to feel they were lied to…..

I bet none of them would as trust means the world in a results based business! How can a manager trust the word of a club to back them if the results turn if the club didn’t deliver on their agreement for squad improvement and investment and changed the line on it MULTIPLE times…..

I would merely add "particularly if in that results-based industry their reputation and indeed ultimately employment were on the line" at a suitable place.

 

[Novawolf1]

I still hold the view that Fosun moved the goalposts after their financial problems occurred around the time JLo started work and Shi has carried the can though he has plenty of other baggage. JLo ran off and has kicked his heels since as his behaviour was noted within the game. Currently he’s negotiated with West Ham while Moyes is in post…I wonder if they’ll shake hands if they ever meet on the pitch ? I’ll give him full respect for saving our season without much flair but otherwise don’t want him near Molineux..UTW

 

[wolfslair]

We will probably never really know the truth.
I don’t think it’s necessary unreasonable for the owners to “ move the goalposts “ circumstances do change. I bet Lopetegui has had conversations with players that “work” for him, then not followed through… Jimenez certainly looked like he expected to get a farewell 10 minutes on that last home game.

And I ain’t buying his comment that he wasn’t doubting the quality of the squad.. he very clearly thought we’d be in a relegation battle, and he thought if we went down it would look bad on him.

Your last part is fair, he has said he didn’t doubt the quality of rhe squad though is he or his mouthpiece……

It has been said it wasn’t the reason he left, like many have pushed as the main reason he left.

looking at what has happened to the squad with only 5 injuries at one point shows outside our starting 11 our squad is bottom 3 in terms of quality and couldn’t beat two championship
Teams this season.

 

[Mugwump]

We will probably never really know the truth.
I don’t think it’s necessary unreasonable for the owners to “ move the goalposts “ circumstances do change. I bet Lopetegui has had conversations with players that “work” for him, then not followed through… Jimenez certainly looked like he expected to get a farewell 10 minutes on that last home game.

And I ain’t buying his comment that he wasn’t doubting the quality of the squad.. he very clearly thought we’d be in a relegation battle, and he thought if we went down it would look bad on him.

I think people read too much into a comment that got misquoted about relegation. Wolves aims, as we have clearly seen were to finish 17th this season. Lopetegui wasnt on board with such low expectations. He said we needed to improve, not that we were relegation candidates.

 

[wolfslair]

I would merely add "particularly if in that results-based industry their reputation and indeed ultimately employment were on the line" at a suitable place.

Sorry that is what I meant by having the club back then.

But you saw the line I was aiming for…..

Shi broke the trust, what did he expect to happen? Jl is an elite manager, you don’t get away with misleading elite managers.

You do lesser manangers, but not a guy like or JL or a person who has a high sense of self worth and places real value in their reputation

 

[Jefe]

Or when GON took over...

The difference here being that the vast majority of people who were slagging GON when he was appointed have admitted they called it wrong, and now have little else but praise for him. We even have an entire thread dedicated to that sentiment of contrition that reached national media attention.

If Gary goes through the same ado with the owners over transfer funds / lies and trust issues (he already had a taste of it in January, mind), and jumps ship in pre-season, will we see a "Julen Lopetegui humble pie safe space" thread, where posters admit they got it wrong about him? Will we ****. Too much Lopetegui derangement syndrome.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

He left little old Wolves after he performed the miracle noone would have believed possible and kept them up. Brownie points for that. He left with a monster pay out (most likely), enough to keep him going while he looked for another job more suited to what he perceived as his elevated status. Along came West Ham. In London. Massive stadium. Much more fashionable club. Let's face it, Wolves were just a stepping stone. Shi is no saint, but nor is JL.

Rare we agree but nail hit firmly on the head. Shi definitely moved the goalposts but that happens in all businesses all the time. We were only a stepping stone to JL and he’d have moved on (if sucessful) regardless of backing. In the same way if he does well at West Ham he’ll be out the door again if a “big 6” came knocking

 

[wolfslair]

I cant believe there is anyone who seriously thinks Lopetegui wasnt lied to. Like i said, i get people being annoyed at his carry on, i was as well, but throwing at him that he left days before the season is ignoring that he was going to go earlier, but Hobbs asked him to stay on and keep preparing the team, which he did in a professional manner.

And the set up he did before the United game set up one of our best 90 minutes of the season!!!!

It was said that the plans for the press and break was done by the JL coaching staff

GON didn’t have time to change anything tactically or strategically , he didn’t have the time…… if someone believes he could have tweaked the planned system in that time doesn’t understand the amount of planning and drilling of strategy that goes on between games.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I still hold the view that Fosun moved the goalposts after their financial problems occurred around the time JLo started work and Shi has carried the can though he has plenty of other baggage. JLo ran off and has kicked his heels since as his behaviour was noted within the game. Currently he’s negotiated with West Ham while Moyes is in post…I wonder if they’ll shake hands if they ever meet on the pitch ? I’ll give him full respect for saving our season without much flair but otherwise don’t want him near Molineux..UTW

OK, both parts of this.

Firstly, I did think that it might be Fosun deciding they didn't want to subsidise the club any more. That's fine, we don't have some entitlement for them to pump in £35m a season. However, that's not what we are told, they bang on about how there is no PSR 'headroom'. So if the circumstances did change in that way then they have lied about that.

Second Lopetegui has agreed to take over from Moyes next season. Moyes is out of contract at the end of this season, so there's no dubious behaviour there (not that it doesn't happen all the time anyway).

 

[wolfslair]

Rare we agree but nail hit firmly on the head. Shi definitely moved the goalposts but that happens in all businesses all the time. We were only a stepping stone to JL and he’d have moved on (if sucessful) regardless of backing. In the same way if he does well at West Ham he’ll be out the door again if a “big 6” came knocking

I agree with both of you too.

As soon as we finished serving as his premier league audition he would be gone the first time a sky six came knocking

 

[North West Wanderer]

I am not getting into public and direct call outs……. That isn’t fair or correct and poor form on your part to ask for it…..

And many do defend the club at every turn even refusing to accept a quote from the club as proof they were wrong.

please call these posters out.
it’s worse form for you to constantly snipe and accuse people yourself.
I’m very much more towards not criticising the club about everything, for sure.
there’s loads i’m not happy with and have disclosed that.
don’t make accusations like you do unless you’re prepared to name. truth is these people don’t exist, they just refuse to point blank criticise ALL the bloody time over everything.

 

[glorybox]

Rare we agree but nail hit firmly on the head. Shi definitely moved the goalposts but that happens in all businesses all the time. We were only a stepping stone to JL and he’d have moved on (if sucessful) regardless of backing. In the same way if he does well at West Ham he’ll be out the door again if a “big 6” came knocking

But why would any manager stay at West Ham, or Wolves for that matter, if someone like Chelsea came calling?The price of being a middle-size club with a successful manager unfortunately. Without Covid & Raul's injury i'm certain Nuno would have been off to a "bigger" club.

 

[North West Wanderer]

Having been a former Real Madrid manager who coached Sevilla in games against them l seriously doubt that lol.....

i think he lacks emotional perception sometimes so we shall see haha

 

[wolfslair]

I still hold the view that Fosun moved the goalposts after their financial problems occurred around the time JLo started work and Shi has carried the can though he has plenty of other baggage. JLo ran off and has kicked his heels since as his behaviour was noted within the game. Currently he’s negotiated with West Ham while Moyes is in post…I wonder if they’ll shake hands if they ever meet on the pitch ? I’ll give him full respect for saving our season without much flair but otherwise don’t want him near Molineux..UTW

West Ham had to negotiate with a new manager if they weren’t keeping Moyes who finishes this summer……

Any normal business would do the same.

Neither West Ham or JL have acted like snakes or inappropriately here

 

[steve vena]

Lopetegui is a ****er
Balague is a ****er
Jeff Shi is a ****er

****ers the lot of them. He isn't wrong about Fosun though. Not exactly a shock that Jeff Shi lied multiple times is it. Nonetheless, JL has form for doing what he did. However, my gut either way is that O'Neil will either get fed up next season and go elsewhere or results will nosedive as a result of more lack of investment and O'Neil will get the boot. Just a gut. JL for all his faults exposed Fosun for what they are. Lopetegui is a ****** but bigger picture is we need new ownership.

Amen brother. We do . I'm tired of their antics and twisting things all the time.