Will Fosun realise?

[Black Country Wanderer]

The figures are laid out for us on this.

The only way we're breaching the rules, or getting close to, is if we lost £39m for 23/24.

You're trying to make it more complicated than it is. They're saying after doing everything we did in the summer, we're still on course to lose £39m. That's it.

That's all you have to decide whether is true.

If you don't want to do that, fine. But please don't make out like I'm asking you to budget for the country.

You have our revenues, you have our amortisation, you have our wage bill from last season, you have our players sold. It's really not that difficult to say we will not be posting a £39m loss for the 23/24 season.

Totally agree,i cant for the life of me get where that figure comes from
The club dont give figures out before the accounts are published,never have never will
If Judah says hes seen the accounts hes lying,i mean who the hell is he lol
Same for Spiers and Madeley, they have just grasped at straws, and now are scrambling to say nothing that substantiates the claims
If it turns out that they are right,then ill apologise and never try to work out club finances ever again lol

 

[North West Wanderer]

You spent most of January arguing with anyone who criticised Fosun/the approach and then you would say things like 'we could do with a striker in an ideal world'. And now you claim we were at least one short. If you thought that, we wouldn't have argued in January, as you'd just be agreeing with people who said it

There's no extremes whatsoever. My post is probably the most extreme about the PSR but you've admitted you don't know enough about it.

I spent most of January pulling my hair out truth be told!! I went in the record of saying we are short, i just don’t bleat at about it in every post??

of course there’s extremes in views and yours are more extreme than most! I am also going to cast doubt on your knowledge respectfully. you’re seeing what you want to and ignoring that you don’t. i’m honest enough to admit it despite my professional background and qualifications!

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Also, this thread sums up exactly why they will get away with it.

Lots of Wolves fans who all just shrug their shoulders and can't be bothered to look into it. That's not a criticism by the way, we have jobs, it's time consuming, it's boring etc.

But they're banking on that attitude and in a years time if we've had a good summer, spent a bit, nobody will really care when the accounts come out and show that they've lied (apart from SBK who will be calling for Jeff and Hobbs to be sacked )

If they are £30 plus million wrong like you’re suggesting then 100% both of them should go, it’s bordering on fraud.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

I spent most of January pulling my hair out truth be told!! I went in the record of saying we are short, i just don’t bleat at about it in every post??

of course there’s extremes in views and yours are more extreme than most! I am also going to cast doubt on your knowledge respectfully. you’re seeing what you want to and ignoring that you don’t. i’m honest enough to admit it despite my professional background and qualifications!

The only difficult bit is the 'allowable deductions', because we don't know what they are or how much they account for. However, Madeley knows and it's from Wolves, so we do know! That shifts everything.

So, with respect, you just can't be bothered to look into it because it's not that difficult and someone with your background would find out pretty quickly. Yet, despite that, you still feel in a position to have a pop at what I'm saying, brilliant stuff

Genuine question: With your finance background and as a football fan, would you not be mystified/shocked if Wolves announced such a massive loss after selling so many players and lowering the wage bill?

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

If they are £30 plus million wrong like you’re suggesting then 100% both of them should go, it’s bordering on fraud.

It's not really that bad. They're only saying they're projections and we don't know when they showed them. They'll probably say something like the Nunes sale wasn't part of the projections, and there's an extra £20m (for PSR) that we hadn't planned for, happy days.

 

[North West Wanderer]

The figures are laid out for us on this.

The only way we're breaching the rules, or getting close to, is if we lost £39m for 23/24.

You're trying to make it more complicated than it is. They're saying after doing everything we did in the summer, we're still on course to lose £39m. That's it.

That's all you have to decide whether is true.

If you don't want to do that, fine. But please don't make out like I'm asking you to budget for the country.

You have our revenues, you have our amortisation, you have our wage bill from last season, you have our players sold. It's really not that difficult to say we will not be posting a £39m loss for the 23/24 season.

so why is it you, known as a club critic and pessimist who believes this, yet others don’t? it’s a little arrogant don’t you think?

 

[North West Wanderer]

Also, this thread sums up exactly why they will get away with it.

Lots of Wolves fans who all just shrug their shoulders and can't be bothered to look into it. That's not a criticism by the way, we have jobs, it's time consuming, it's boring etc.

But they're banking on that attitude and in a years time if we've had a good summer, spent a bit, nobody will really care when the accounts come out and show that they've lied (apart from SBK who will be calling for Jeff and Hobbs to be sacked )

not at all, it is possible to be measured, realistic and challenging where appropriate.

 

[North West Wanderer]

The only difficult bit is the 'allowable deductions', because we don't know what they are or how much they account for. However, Madeley knows and it's from Wolves, so we do know! That shifts everything.

So, with respect, you just can't be bothered to look into it because it's not that difficult and someone with your background would find out pretty quickly. Yet, despite that, you still feel in a position to have a pop at what I'm saying, brilliant stuff

Genuine question: With your finance background and as a football fan, would you not be mystified/shocked if Wolves announced such a massive loss after selling so many players and lowering the wage bill?

i’ve said before that there’s been a **** up of monumental proportions.i don’t procrastinate on it as it adds zero value.

it’s not a case of not being bothered it’s a reflection on how messed up the whole FFP scenario is. mind you you think you’re an expert!!!
I don’t get why you always have to be so contrary.

 

[wwbug]

I get people voicing an opinion (it’s a forum after all) but the displaying of opinion as solid facts on a subject no one apart from wolves know about, is just crazy to me.

Besides what we see on the pitch the only real facts are the Accounts that are audited and filed with companies house . But they come out 9 months after the year end and 21 months from the beginning of that year. In the gap in between there is lots of conjecture, understandably. Wolves is a daily passion.

 

[Slothmonkey]

Currently discussing GON comments on Talksport

 

[goldeneyed]

O'Neill has already said it all and outside public utterances would have been far more angry at the way he has been forced to make so much of so little. Fact is Shi is in the shadows because of the kind of disastrous deals he negotiated alongside Mendes ie Silva and Guedes, above all, have backfired disastrously and caused the financial squeeze that has not even allowed us to come up with a £4m loan fee for Broja. How much lost prize money, through a lower league placing and a lost golden FA Cup opportunity, will that decision cost?
Will Fosun insist on us selling a couple of our best players in the summer to fund any ingoings? Wouldn't surprise me, guaranteeing we will tread water at the very best next season and quite possibly struggle.

 

[Southdownswolf]

Hashtag United have a massive brand!

They have more YouTube and X followers than many premier league clubs.

They also have adidas make them bespoke kits that not even prem football teams get.

They have some commercial deals that are quite substantial.

They don’t run on any debt and are completely self sustaining. Unlike many clubs in the pyramid.

Believe me, their “brand” is massive!

Perhaps I phrased it wrong... They didnt have an existing brand to build on.

They are in the opposite position of having to build up their team, but a reasonable media presence.

 

[North West Wanderer]

Damn you @WeAreTheWolvesII youve dragged me in again!!!

 

[wolfslair]

Perhaps I phrased it wrong... They didnt have an existing brand to build on.

They are in the opposite position of having to build up their team, but a reasonable media presence.

Very fair

 

[WickedWolfie]

Would you like some magic beans?

They've got Fosun embossed on one side and a picture of Jeff on the other.

You sure that those are beans? I thought that they were on sale in various nightclubs.....

 

[North West Wanderer]

Besides what we see on the pitch the only real facts are the Accounts that are audited and filed with companies house . But they come out 9 months after the year end and 21 months from the beginning of that year. In the gap in between there is lots of conjecture, understandably. Wolves is a daily passion.

this is fair. i admire watw’s passion. he’d be fun to have a beer with as i bet he’s a passionate fan.

 

[WickedWolfie]

One of the main issues as I see it is that football clubs in general thought the gravy train would just keep on running and any threatened sanctions would be financial in nature and therefore be a paper tiger in relation to the riches on offer. I don't think we can underestimate the shockwaves that the points deduction for Everton sent through the Premier League clubs and the ensuing panic that the realisation that they were actually going to have to comply with FFP or PSR rules has caused.

I've said similar previously. Although UEFA have banned at least one club (AC Milan) from European competitions over FFP breaches.

 

[WickedWolfie]

not at all, it is possible to be measured, realistic and challenging where appropriate.

True. Of course different people have different views about where those boundaries are set, lol.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Damn you @WeAreTheWolvesII youve dragged me in again!!!

Admit it, you can't keep away lol....

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

It's not really that bad. They're only saying they're projections and we don't know when they showed them. They'll probably say something like the Nunes sale wasn't part of the projections, and there's an extra £20m (for PSR) that we hadn't planned for, happy days.

Well it is that bad (if I’m reading what you’re saying correctly) and the club say it’s £3 million but you’re saying it’s £30 million plus. That’s not a little discrepancy either they’re lying massively and on that basis 100% I’d want Shi and Hobbs nowhere near the club or you’re interpretation of figures you haven’t seen and are unlikely to see is wrong.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Well it is that bad (if I’m reading what you’re saying correctly) and the club say it’s £3 million but you’re saying it’s £30 million plus. That’s not a little discrepancy either they’re lying massively and on that basis 100% I’d want Shi and Hobbs nowhere near the club or you’re interpretation of figures you haven’t seen and are unlikely to see is wrong.

Lying massively or hopelessly incompetent. If either of those is true - and l for one wouldn't claim to have a clue - you are spot on about what should happen.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Besides what we see on the pitch the only real facts are the Accounts that are audited and filed with companies house . But they come out 9 months after the year end and 21 months from the beginning of that year. In the gap in between there is lots of conjecture, understandably. Wolves is a daily passion.

I totally get that and it’s genuinely why I don’t offer my opinion on it because I (try) to opinionate myself on things I know or see. For instance, granted this is left field but MGW is a case in point. I’ll offer my opinion on him as a player as obviously watched him here and at other clubs, and as a person having met him a few times but also know people very close to him. There’s plenty been on here saying he was a bad egg etc but have no basis for it as no one at the club ever came out and said that, in fact quite the opposite. I’m not and never have been a fan of anyone on here or indeed in life trying to present opinion as fact as they’re two very different things.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Lying massively or hopelessly incompetent. If either of those is true - and l for one wouldn't claim to have a clue - you are spot on about what should happen.

Some on here would label me a club apologist (I’m actually not and have criticised both Fosun and Shi in the past on things, but that always gets washed over) but if either of those scenarios is shown to be true when we’re talking about a £30 million difference, then both Hobbs and Shi should have a P45.

 

[Hsvwolf]

Most frustrated heard him sound … and to be fair can’t blame him . Lop walked with an even stronger squad . Proved what he can do and if not backed ( not just replacing who will probably sell) can see him walking

 

[Andywolf74]

Very interesting article on BBC football analysing Premier League club accounts for 2022 & 2023 and how many clubs (Wolves included) have incurred significant losses.
Unfortunately, Fosun aren't mega rich lifelong Wolves fans, so with the club incurring losses, despite maintaining our Premier league status, it's highly unlikely Fosun are going to turn on the spending taps unless like in 2022/23 we look in real danger of going down. Even with a real relegation threat there's only so much we could spend anyway due to the potential for a points deduction.
This summer it's highly likely there will have to be an element of buy to sell but we have proved with the sale of Mattheus and purchase of Doyle that there's potential to be smart in the transfer market. For example, Silva going to Rangers and Jack Butland signing for us could work out, especially if Sa wants to leave.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

O'Neill has already said it all and outside public utterances would have been far more angry at the way he has been forced to make so much of so little. Fact is Shi is in the shadows because of the kind of disastrous deals he negotiated alongside Mendes ie Silva and Guedes, above all, have backfired disastrously and caused the financial squeeze that has not even allowed us to come up with a £4m loan fee for Broja. How much lost prize money, through a lower league placing and a lost golden FA Cup opportunity, will that decision cost?
Will Fosun insist on us selling a couple of our best players in the summer to fund any ingoings? Wouldn't surprise me, guaranteeing we will tread water at the very best next season and quite possibly struggle.

I don’t think Shi is in the shadows for that reasoning at all because (rightly) he’d be able to balance out the Guedes and Silva’s of this world with the host of players who have proved value.

Fosun absolutely will insist on sales, Hobbs alluded to that. It’s part of the model and part of how we can be successful. It’s how that money is reinvested that’s important. The much lauded Brighton model means selling players at their peak value then reinvesting that.

Re your last sentence, you can’t guarantee anything. There were plenty saying the same last summer with the transfer activity and appointing a PE teacher.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

Most frustrated heard him sound … and to be fair can’t blame him . Lop walked with an even stronger squad . Proved what he can do and if not backed ( not just replacing who will probably sell) can see him walking

This then plays in to what side of the fence you are on. If you're part of the FOSUN and Jeff out brigade then it sounds like the venting of a man who believes he's been lied to and it's a warning shot to the club. If you're on the other side of the fence (don't know what that would be labelled as) then it's a man bemoaning his luck with injuries to a squad he knew was by financial necessity going to be stretched.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Currently discussing GON comments on Talksport

Listened to it, think the Peterborough owner got it spot on in all directions to be honest (he’s been great all week)

 

[wolfslair]

this is fair. i admire watw’s passion. he’d be fun to have a beer with as i bet he’s a passionate fan.

I think we are all passionate fans, have the club in our hearts but vocalise it VERY differently from other ends of the spectrum.

I don’t think anyone on here is an outright ******** or nasty person……. Maybe moments in time where people say things in later hindsight they regret, but I don’t feel anyone doe/says things out of being a bad person, just an overflow of emotion at that time.

The mods run a good ship here, as football is sooooo passionate and emotive and the extremes on both ends are welcome here which is awesome!!!!

We all love the club, we all want what we think is best. But like everything we see the same information differently………

 

[Slothmonkey]

Listened to it, think the Peterborough owner got it spot on in all directions to be honest (he’s been great all week)

Same. Thought he was spot on. I also thought he was a prat but been great this week. Open and honest about the running of a club

 

[Wolf316]

Same. Thought he was spot on. I also thought he was a prat but been great this week. Open and honest about the running of a club

What did he say?

 

[WickedWolfie]

Listened to it, think the Peterborough owner got it spot on in all directions to be honest (he’s been great all week)

It's strange/interesting. Having heard Darragh MacAnthony talk in the past he always came over as a bit of a self-interested tool. He now, rather like the change previously seen in Simon Jordan, seems much more balanced. Perhaps it's just that he isn't talking about his own club's interests.

Just saw @Slothmonkey's parallel post. Great minds or fools? lol

 

[Slothmonkey]

Basically that GON has to be careful as a young coach to question the board. He may be letting the links get to his head, he knew what he signed up for when he took the job. Pushing against the board is not a good look. That he had a manager who did this in press conferences Steve Evans for new players and it annoyed him and actually worked against the manager.

He has also heard very good things about GON when at Bournemouth from friends and if he wants to go to the very top he has to get better and smarter at when to question the board.

I forget the rest, sorry me adhd. Mind like a sieve haha

What did he say?

 

[SuperGran]

Basically that GON has to be careful as a young coach to question the board. He may be letting the links get to his head, he knew what he signed up for when he took the job. Pushing against the board is not a good look. That he had a manager who did this in press conferences Steve Evans for new players and it annoyed him and actually worked against the manager.

He has also heard very good things about GON when at Bournemouth from friends and if he wants to go to the very top he has to get better and smarter at when to question the board.

I forget the rest, sorry me adhd. Mind like a sieve haha

Think that is harsh especially in context of the full interview
Naivety maybe but covering himself when results haven’t been good.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

i’ve said before that there’s been a **** up of monumental proportions.i don’t procrastinate on it as it adds zero value.

it’s not a case of not being bothered it’s a reflection on how messed up the whole FFP scenario is. mind you you think you’re an expert!!!
I don’t get why you always have to be so contrary.

You're telling me I'm wrong (and arrogant) but not telling me how...

The way I'm perceived by posters on here is discrediting my point here, which shouldn't be the case. I can't say I'm dealing with facts because it's not been proven yet, but it's not an opinion because I'm 'negative'. I'm looking at the numbers and coming to a conclusion. All I ask is that you do the same but you won't.

I think me and SYHO are broadly on the same page with the figures so I prefer it when he makes the point. He too can't grasp how we're supposedly posting this loss and it's critical to the claim we're close to PSR.

You're getting too hung up on it being a dig at Fosun.

I'm perfectly happy to change my outlook if new information comes to light. If I've missed something. But I don't just say this on a whim, I've looked into it. Your mate Craig Spillard is on Twitter predicting a £5m profit for the 23/24 season. Finance people I know are saying we should make a profit.

This isn't because I've got an agenda, it's because I'm looking at the numbers.

If you do that and change my mind, I'm all ears.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

Well it is that bad (if I’m reading what you’re saying correctly) and the club say it’s £3 million but you’re saying it’s £30 million plus. That’s not a little discrepancy either they’re lying massively and on that basis 100% I’d want Shi and Hobbs nowhere near the club or you’re interpretation of figures you haven’t seen and are unlikely to see is wrong.

I was more picking up on the word fraud you used. I know you weren't directly accusing them of fraud I was just pointing out they would have done nothing of the sort. It is simply a wrong projection, but as you say the issue is that they'd have been lying to us.

 

[VancouverWolf]

Because they choose to, believe the club lie on a regular basis and refuse to be anything but critical.

consequently the likes of us get called apologists because we are more moderate in our viewpoint.

Bang on.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Same. Thought he was spot on. I also thought he was a prat but been great this week. Open and honest about the running of a club

I used to think the same about Simon Jordan, love him now

 

[Slothmonkey]

Think that is harsh especially in context of the full interview
Naivety maybe but covering himself when results haven’t been good.

Do you mean in context of full interview with GON or with the Posh owner?

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

You're telling me I'm wrong (and arrogant) but not telling me how...

The way I'm perceived by posters on here is discrediting my point here, which shouldn't be the case. I can't say I'm dealing with facts because it's not been proven yet, but it's not an opinion because I'm 'negative'. I'm looking at the numbers and coming to a conclusion. All I ask is that you do the same but you won't.

I think me and SYHO are broadly on the same page with the figures so I prefer it when he makes the point. He too can't grasp how we're supposedly posting this loss and it's critical to the claim we're close to PSR.

You're getting too hung up on it being a dig at Fosun.

I'm perfectly happy to change my outlook if new information comes to light. If I've missed something. But I don't just say this on a whim, I've looked into it. Your mate Craig Spillard is on Twitter predicting a £5m profit for the 23/24 season. Finance people I know are saying we should make a profit.

This isn't because I've got an agenda, it's because I'm looking at the numbers.

If you do that and change my mind, I'm all ears.

It’s not an opinion because you’re a “negative” it’s an opinion because you can’t possibly know the current figures, you’re working purely on guess work so surely you can see that because it’s guesswork it can’t ever be anything other than opinion?