Food for thought?

[Ercall Wolves]

No unconscious bias?

No pre conceived ideas / opinions in play? All just purely coincidental the massive disparity between white-bame player ratio and those in management?

Seems your mind is convinced and nothing will make you consider anything else

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

Mutchy, you are right. I think all on here think you're right. And again, you are right, WHY is the question there are so few black candidates? As I said above I think we are now going around in circles on here. Many would say racism in some form is 100% the reason, others, like me, feel it is a small part of the reason. The truth I expect lies somewhere in between. No one on here, including the BFP paper, has come up with concrete ways to tackle the issue, which is what really would interest me.

I’d like to see a really comprehensive investigation take place that asks the pertinent questions to ALL the qualified black coaches. 1) how many positions with league clubs have you applied for and with which clubs? 2) how many interviews were you invited to and by which clubs? 3) were you suitably qualified for that position? 4) who got the job if you didn’t? 5) did anything happen during the process that made you feel you were being unfairly discriminated against based on your colour?

Then take this information to the clubs and ask 1) why was this candidate not invited to an interview? 2) how many other candidates were invited for an interview 3) how many applicants were not invited? 4) if you invited the candidate why did you decide not to employ them? 5) the candidate believes they were discriminated against because of their colour for this reason. How do you respond to this?

Once you’ve got the data you can form an educated opinion on the nature of the problem. Is there a lack of suitably qualified black coaches and if so why is this happening? Why are black coaches not applying for positions they are qualified for in sufficient numbers. If they are then why are they not being employed in greater numbers? Is it really as simple as just deep seated racism in football?

I’d also like to see if there is any merit in setting up a system so that if clubs identify black players coming to the end of their careers they think have the potential to become top quality coaches they can be fast tracked on to coaching courses sponsored by the clubs to then bring them back to that club on the coaching staff.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Seems your mind is convinced and nothing will make you consider anything else

Not at all I’ve not heard anyone give a reasonable reason as to why over a third of the football league players are of Bame origin but they make up less than 5% of the managers. Common sense says that’s by design not coincidence as “coincidence” could never throw out such a massive disparity

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Mutchy, you are right. I think all on here think you're right. And again, you are right, WHY is the question there are so few black candidates? As I said above I think we are now going around in circles on here. Many would say racism in some form is 100% the reason, others, like me, feel it is a small part of the reason. The truth I expect lies somewhere in between. No one on here, including the BFP paper, has come up with concrete ways to tackle the issue, which is what really would interest me.

There’s hoardes of BAME candidates they just don’t get to interview stage enough to even present a case, that’s well documented with several ex players saying they applied for scores of jobs and never heard a thing back. The question is why?

There are concrete ways to tackle the issue but they are too intrusive. The same people up in arms about “box ticking” would be up in arms about that as well.

 

[caradon wolf]

One aspect that has occurred to me today whilst reading this thread is the need perhaps for much better qualified football club owners. Consider the likes of Lampard, Rooney and our very own Saunders- all given fairly high profile jobs with no real evidence they could do the job. All doomed to failure.
I have been reading today that the new guy at MUtd ( no football knowledge or experience as far as I know) has set his cap at Gareth Southgate to replace the current man in charge. Not a good fit at all in my view. I wonder what his criteria are in choosing yet another new coach.

 

[Ercall Wolves]

Not at all I’ve not heard anyone give a reasonable reason as to why over a third of the football league players are of Bame origin but they make up less than 5% of the managers. Common sense says that’s by design not coincidence as “coincidence” could never throw out such a massive disparity

There’s been lots of varying comments and suggestions as to why it could be bame only make up 5% of the managers in the football league, however you seem hell bent that the only reason it can be is the the decision makers are racist, I will stick to what I have said previously and we will just have to agree to disagree
One question: Are you sure there are only 4 bame managers in the whole of the football league
92 clubs therefore 5% is 4.6 and you state less than 5% so I’m assuming 4, is that right?

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

I’d like to see a really comprehensive investigation take place that asks the pertinent questions to ALL the qualified black coaches. 1) how many positions with league clubs have you applied for and with which clubs? 2) how many interviews were you invited to and by which clubs? 3) were you suitably qualified for that position? 4) who got the job if you didn’t? 5) did anything happen during the process that made you feel you were being unfairly discriminated against based on your colour?

Then take this information to the clubs and ask 1) why was this candidate not invited to an interview? 2) how many other candidates were invited for an interview 3) how many applicants were not invited? 4) if you invited the candidate why did you decide not to employ them? 5) the candidate believes they were discriminated against because of their colour for this reason. How do you respond to this?

Once you’ve got the data you can form an educated opinion on the nature of the problem. Is there a lack of suitably qualified black coaches and if so why is this happening? Why are black coaches not applying for positions they are qualified for in sufficient numbers. If they are then why are they not being employed in greater numbers? Is it really as simple as just deep seated racism in football?

I’d also like to see if there is any merit in setting up a system so that if clubs identify black players coming to the end of their careers they think have the potential to become top quality coaches they can be fast tracked on to coaching courses sponsored by the clubs to then bring them back to that club on the coaching staff.

That sounds great in theory, but would cost a extortionate amount due to the sheer man power required to get the information and then evaluate it. You’ve also got to expect a huge amount of push back on clubs who absolutely won’t want to divulge that information as it’s only going to look negative.

One stat that is already out and can’t be disputed, there’s enough BAME candidates with coaching licences. Those numbers consistently rise.

 

[Pagey]

I have been reading today that the new guy at MUtd ( no football knowledge or experience as far as I know) has set his cap at Gareth Southgate to replace the current man in charge. Not a good fit at all in my view. I wonder what his criteria are in choosing yet another new coach

Hasn't he had experience of owning clubs in Europe? He's also got Dan Ashworth at Man utd who worked with Southgate for England.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

There’s been lots of varying comments and suggestions as to why it could be bame only make up 5% of the managers in the football league, however you seem hell bent that the only reason it can be is the the decision makers are racist, I will stick to what I have said previously and we will just have to agree to disagree
One question: Are you sure there are only 4 bame managers in the whole of the football league
92 clubs therefore 5% is 4.6 and you state less than 5% so I’m assuming 4, is that right?

If there’s 5 does that make it more acceptable to you? There’s two in the top two divisions, I’m not scouring through google to do leagues 1 & 2 for you.

What I do find interesting is no one wants to hear what the BAME ex players are saying on it. I mean they are the people that know best. Look at google as to what some very good ex professionals have said in the last 12 months. They are saying they aren’t getting opportunities, I think they’d have more of a finger on the pulse than us, right?

 

[Jawwfc]

I'd like to think there is no racist undertones in football anymore, there is however managers who seem to have had a step up far more than most due to the playing career they had Lampard, Gerrard,Kompany, Rooney all started off at relatively big clubs for there first jobs in management and seem to be immune from criticism by the media. Kompany has failed this year but never seems to be criticised by the media despite spending a lot more than Luton and Sheff Utd.

Arteta another media favourite criticised Lee Mason and instantly Mason was removed but Nuno got a big fine for his criticism despite the fact he's a much more experienced manager.

There is an element of favouritism towards ex PL "Legends".

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I’d like to see a really comprehensive investigation take place that asks the pertinent questions to ALL the qualified black coaches. 1) how many positions with league clubs have you applied for and with which clubs? 2) how many interviews were you invited to and by which clubs? 3) were you suitably qualified for that position? 4) who got the job if you didn’t? 5) did anything happen during the process that made you feel you were being unfairly discriminated against based on your colour?

Then take this information to the clubs and ask 1) why was this candidate not invited to an interview? 2) how many other candidates were invited for an interview 3) how many applicants were not invited? 4) if you invited the candidate why did you decide not to employ them? 5) the candidate believes they were discriminated against because of their colour for this reason. How do you respond to this?

Once you’ve got the data you can form an educated opinion on the nature of the problem. Is there a lack of suitably qualified black coaches and if so why is this happening? Why are black coaches not applying for positions they are qualified for in sufficient numbers. If they are then why are they not being employed in greater numbers? Is it really as simple as just deep seated racism in football?

I’d also like to see if there is any merit in setting up a system so that if clubs identify black players coming to the end of their careers they think have the potential to become top quality coaches they can be fast tracked on to coaching courses sponsored by the clubs to then bring them back to that club on the coaching staff.

At last, some one has come up with a plan! Tbh does not seem that complicated a thing to do but as I keep saying will anything ever happen? Will it ****.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

There’s hoardes of BAME candidates they just don’t get to interview stage enough to even present a case, that’s well documented with several ex players saying they applied for scores of jobs and never heard a thing back. The question is why?

There are concrete ways to tackle the issue but they are too intrusive. The same people up in arms about “box ticking” would be up in arms about that as well.

Werewolf's suggestion above could work but I don't believe there is a will to do something like this.

There’s been lots of varying comments and suggestions as to why it could be bame only make up 5% of the managers in the football league, however you seem hell bent that the only reason it can be is the the decision makers are racist, I will stick to what I have said previously and we will just have to agree to disagree
One question: Are you sure there are only 4 bame managers in the whole of the football league
92 clubs therefore 5% is 4.6 and you state less than 5% so I’m assuming 4, is that right?

I can think of 4 off the top of my head - the 2 in the Prem, Darren Moore and Liam Roseinor at Hull. There must be lots more but I have little knowledge of the lower leagues. Plus of course assistant managers, physios and managers in non -league like George Elokobi. In fact the more I think about it there have to be dozens of black people in management positions across all these leagues?

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Werewolf's suggestion above could work but I don't believe there is a will to do something like this.

I can think of 4 off the top of my head - the 2 in the Prem, Darren Moore and Liam Roseinor at Hull. There must be lots more but I have little knowledge of the lower leagues. Plus of course assistant managers, physios and managers in non -league like George Elokobi. In fact the more I think about it there have to be dozens of black people in management positions across all these leagues?

Yes, dozens of coaches, 57 indeed out of 1304 positions in League football. Nothing to see here.

 

[Ercall Wolves]

If there’s 5 does that make it more acceptable to you? There’s two in the top two divisions, I’m not scouring through google to do leagues 1 & 2 for you.

What I do find interesting is no one wants to hear what the BAME ex players are saying on it. I mean they are the people that know best. Look at google as to what some very good ex professionals have said in the last 12 months. They are saying they aren’t getting opportunities, I think they’d have more of a finger on the pulse than us, right?

It was you that said less than 5%
Please don’t give stats out unless you have proof, that’s a given isn’t it
Jeez

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

It was you that said less than 5%
Please don’t give stats out unless you have proof, that’s a given isn’t it
Jeez

See the post above. There’s the stats.

Jeez.

It’s all a coincidence

 

[Ercall Wolves]

See the post above. There’s the stats.

Jeez.

It’s all a coincidence

Ha ha isn’t that employees not managers

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Yes, dozens of coaches, 57 indeed out of 1304 positions in League football. Nothing to see here.

View attachment 41288

Excellent work.

I look forward to a load of responses saying it’s coincidental and that it’s just the white candidates are better with more experienced.

57 out of 1304 is an utterly disgraceful figure and anyone trying to justify it is clutching at the biggest bag of straws

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Ha ha isn’t that employees not managers

It’s including coaching staff. You know all those roles that BAME ex players hold relevant qualifications but still don’t get. Though obviously it’s just coincidence

 

[Ercall Wolves]

Excellent work.

I look forward to a load of responses saying it’s coincidental and that it’s just the white candidates are better with more experienced.

57 out of 1304 is an utterly disgraceful figure and anyone trying to justify it is clutching at the biggest bag of straws

What does that prove
Your point was there was less than 5% of bame managers in the football league
The said table shows the number of employees in each league
Are you now changing your original concern from managers to employees
It would interesting to know what the % of the population of England is bame so we could see if there if there is a comparison to employees in football in England

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

What does that prove
Your point was there was less than 5% of bame managers in the football league
The said table shows the number of employees in each league
Are you now changing your original concern from managers to employees
It would interesting to know what the % of the population of England is bame so we could see if there if there is a comparison to employees in football in England

Well that’s not true but go on. Without the traditional route of starting as a coach and progressing as a manager how ever do people of BAME origin ever get a foot in the door?

I said several posts ago google “black football managers” there’s pages and pages of ex prominent players backing up everything I’ve posted.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Excellent work.

I look forward to a load of responses saying it’s coincidental and that it’s just the white candidates are better with more experienced.

57 out of 1304 is an utterly disgraceful figure and anyone trying to justify it is clutching at the biggest bag of straws

No one is trying to ‘justify it’. No one (that I’ve seen) has claimed racism doesn’t exist in the game or is a factor. People are looking for actual tangible data, for reasons, for specific examples, for causality beyond an overly simplistic ‘it’s all just racism’. Above all people are looking for answers on how to improve it.

Why are there no Indian / Pakistani footballers in the league but black people are massively represented? Is that ‘durrr racism’ but only against Indians and Pakistanis but not blacks. That’s some very specific racism from the same clubs that allegedly hate black managers.

Why are there so few top white english managers? Is that also racism? All by the same clubs! That are racist against blacks (and white English) for management roles, but not as players (they love black players) but are very racist against Indian / Pakistanis in specifically player roles? They must have a wall chart for tracking who is allowed to do what.

Maybe there are more socio-economic, cultural and other factors at play than JUST ALL THE CLUBS ARE RUN BY OLD RACIST WHITE MEN. Especially when many of the clubs aren’t white run. Man City and Newcastle are run by Middle Eastern nations. Yet they are anti-black and Asian and minority ethnic managers? Fosun (Chinese Fosun) are against Asian managers are they?

Really?

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Well that’s not true but go on. Without the traditional route of starting as a coach and progressing as a manager how ever do people of BAME origin ever get a foot in the door?

I said several posts ago google “black football managers” there’s pages and pages of ex prominent players backing up everything I’ve posted.

Have these people taken action following the alleged discrimination they faced? Which clubs discriminated against them?

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Yes, dozens of coaches, 57 indeed out of 1304 positions in League football. Nothing to see here.

View attachment 41288

"Black, Black British, Caribbean or African" was 4.2% (2.4 million) "Mixed or Multiple ethnic groups" was 3.0% (1.7 million) "White" ethnic groups was 81.0% (45.8 million) "Other ethnic groups" was 2.2% (1.2 million)

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Have these people taken action following the alleged discrimination they faced? Which clubs discriminated against them?

Come on you’re clearly a clever guy. It would be career suicide for a person to name names and follow down the action route. Football is an incredibly tight network, they’d never find work again

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

No one is trying to ‘justify it’. No one (that I’ve seen) has claimed racism doesn’t exist in the game or is a factor. People are looking for actual tangible data, for reasons, for specific examples, for causality beyond an overly simplistic ‘it’s all just racism’. Above all people are looking for answers on how to improve it.

Why are there no Indian / Pakistani footballers in the league but black people are massively represented? Is that ‘durrr racism’ but only against Indians and Pakistanis but not blacks. That’s some very specific racism from the same clubs that allegedly hate black managers.

Why are there so few top white english managers? Is that also racism? All by the same clubs! That are racist against blacks (and white English) for management roles, but not as players (they love black players) but are very racist against Indian / Pakistanis in specifically player roles? They must have a wall chart for tracking who is allowed to do what.

Maybe there are more socio-economic, cultural and other factors at play than JUST ALL THE CLUBS ARE RUN BY OLD RACIST WHITE MEN. Especially when many of the clubs aren’t white run. Man City and Newcastle are run by Middle Eastern nations. Yet they are anti-black and Asian and minority ethnic managers? Fosun (Chinese Fosun) are against Asian managers are they?

Really?

Again for clarity I said clubs were run by old white men in my initial post. I never called them racist.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

By SBKs logic, young white runners are locked out of 100m sprinting and distance running at an elite level. Based on the stats there can be no other possible factors than a shadowy cabal of anti white racists keeping white runners down.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Come on you’re clearly a clever guy. It would be career suicide for a person to name names and follow down the action route. Football is an incredibly tight network, they’d never find work again

You are also clearly a clever guy and I enjoy debating with you.

However I’d counter and say doing just that would immediately make them a ‘cause’ people would rally to. I think such action would have them lauded - provided they could prove it of course!

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Again for clarity I said clubs were run by old white men in my initial post. I never called them racist.

Just old white non racist white men that hate all black potential managers?

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

"Black, Black British, Caribbean or African" was 4.2% (2.4 million) "Mixed or Multiple ethnic groups" was 3.0% (1.7 million) "White" ethnic groups was 81.0% (45.8 million) "Other ethnic groups" was 2.2% (1.2 million)

As you well know, this discussion is about why Black players do not become coaches. You could have a thread about why there's an over representation of Black people as players by all means.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Anyway we’ve been round this circle last night I feel doing it again will bore people to tears. As a final point I fully support BAME (and FEMALE FOR THAT MATTER) coaches and wish them nothing but success.

I just hate reductive arguments without tangible analysis.

Cheers.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

"Black, Black British, Caribbean or African" was 4.2% (2.4 million) "Mixed or Multiple ethnic groups" was 3.0% (1.7 million) "White" ethnic groups was 81.0% (45.8 million) "Other ethnic groups" was 2.2% (1.2 million)

So possibly a logical conclusion from the two sets of stats could be, black players are over represented as players due to certain qualities (as reflected in other athletic pursuits) giving them a differentiating advantage. However based on the numbers above they EXACTLY ALIGN as expected with their % of total population. As do white managers I assume? So actually blacks aren’t under represented as managers, just over represented as players, which could be due to ‘non racism’ factors such as genetics and anatomical advantages of certain ethnicities?

I don’t know, not being clever just making the point IT MIGHT NOT BE JUST THAT EVERYONE IS MASSIVELY RACIST

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

So possibly a logical conclusion from the two sets of stats could be, black players are over represented as players due to certain qualities (as reflected in other athletic pursuits) giving them a differentiating advantage. However based on the numbers above they EXACTLY ALIGN as expected with their % of total population. As do white managers I assume? So actually blacks aren’t under represented as managers, just over represented as players, which could be due to ‘non racism’ factors such as genetics and anatomical advantages of certain ethnicities?

I don’t know, not being clever just making the point IT MIGHT NOT BE JUST THAT EVERYONE IS MASSIVELY RACIST

But how many of the coaches come from the 'general population'? They are largely former pros. They almost exclusively have coaching licenses, you've seen the figures.

BTW, I'm not assuming there are lots of racists in the recruitment process, and I don't think the stats necessarily even prove the much more likely unconscious bias. I'm just saying you shouldn't look at the stats and say - 'nothing to see here'. When these argument were going on 20 years ago there were always suggestions that Black players didn't want to be coaches, but the rate of pro-licences being obtained seems to be ruling that one out.

 

[Bradmore Wolf]

Yes, dozens of coaches, 57 indeed out of 1304 positions in League football. Nothing to see here.

View attachment 41288

Interesting that L2 has lowest representation suggesting that more racist Boards or BAME ex players don't fancy starting low

 

[Kebab Warrior]

But how many of the coaches come from the 'general population'? They are largely former pros. They almost exclusively have coaching licenses, you've seen the figures.

BTW, I'm not assuming there are lots of racists in the recruitment process, and I don't think the stats necessarily even prove the much more likely unconscious bias. I'm just saying you shouldn't look at the stats and say - 'nothing to see here'. When these argument were going on 20 years ago there were always suggestions that Black players didn't want to be coaches, but the rate of pro-licences being obtained seems to be ruling that one out.

Maybe the advantages driving over representation in one discipline don’t carry the same advagtage in the other and it levels back out? I don’t know but I’d love to truly understand.

I honestly am not say ‘nothing to see here’ - I’m just arguing against ‘it’s all just racism’.

The internet drives polarised opinions. I’m just looking for some genuine insight.

Edit ***and frankly I love a good argument with intelligent people****

 

[Boss Hogg]

Being a good manager is more than having been a good player (and sometimes that’s a disadvantage) . You would also need other skills - leadership, presentation skills, communication, organisation, financial competence, etc.

It would be interesting to see if BAME candidates feel they have acquired those sorts of skills through our schooling system (which might be failing them). Maybe they don’t get the opportunities to acquire these skills during their playing career, so whether the PFA should be helping all its members acquire/enhance these skills.

I think it could be an interesting area of research.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Maybe the advantages driving over representation in one discipline don’t carry the same advagtage in the other and it levels back out? I don’t know but I’d love to truly understand.

I honestly am not say ‘nothing to see here’ - I’m just arguing against ‘it’s all just racism’.

The internet drives polarised opinions. I’m just looking for some genuine insight.

Yes, I think my point is that if for example there were advantages for Black kids which made them become over-represented as footballers, that wouldn't suggest that there would be disadvantages that made them less likely to become coaches, I'd expect that over-representation to be maintained.

I certainly think that although there's probably some bias against potential Black coaches, it's hard to imagine in modern society that it is common enough to cause such a disparity. So I would agree that there's probably more to it than simply 'old white men are all a bit racist'.

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Yes, I think my point is that if for example there were advantages for Black kids which made them become over-represented as footballers, that wouldn't suggest that there would be disadvantages that made them less likely to become coaches, I'd expect that over-representation to be maintained.

I certainly think that although there's probably some bias against potential Black coaches, it's hard to imagine in modern society that it is common enough to cause such a disparity. So I would agree that there's probably more to it than simply 'old white men are all a bit racist'.

I’m not suggesting there are necessarily disadvantages inherent just that perhaps their advantages don’t carry over.

To be honest I’m not even really pushing that… just making the point it’s probably multiple factors. Thank you for the discussion - to me this is what forums should be all about. We haven’t called each other Hitler etc!

 

[Ercall Wolves]

No one is trying to ‘justify it’. No one (that I’ve seen) has claimed racism doesn’t exist in the game or is a factor. People are looking for actual tangible data, for reasons, for specific examples, for causality beyond an overly simplistic ‘it’s all just racism’. Above all people are looking for answers on how to improve it.

Why are there no Indian / Pakistani footballers in the league but black people are massively represented? Is that ‘durrr racism’ but only against Indians and Pakistanis but not blacks. That’s some very specific racism from the same clubs that allegedly hate black managers.

Why are there so few top white english managers? Is that also racism? All by the same clubs! That are racist against blacks (and white English) for management roles, but not as players (they love black players) but are very racist against Indian / Pakistanis in specifically player roles? They must have a wall chart for tracking who is allowed to do what.

Maybe there are more socio-economic, cultural and other factors at play than JUST ALL THE CLUBS ARE RUN BY OLD RACIST WHITE MEN. Especially when many of the clubs aren’t white run. Man City and Newcastle are run by Middle Eastern nations. Yet they are anti-black and Asian and minority ethnic managers? Fosun (Chinese Fosun) are against Asian managers are they?

Really?

Excellent post that makes sense

 

[Ercall Wolves]

By SBKs logic, young white runners are locked out of 100m sprinting and distance running at an elite level. Based on the stats there can be no other possible factors than a shadowy cabal of anti white racists keeping white runners down.

Very good point

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Yes, I think my point is that if for example there were advantages for Black kids which made them become over-represented as footballers, that wouldn't suggest that there would be disadvantages that made them less likely to become coaches, I'd expect that over-representation to be maintained.

I certainly think that although there's probably some bias against potential Black coaches, it's hard to imagine in modern society that it is common enough to cause such a disparity. So I would agree that there's probably more to it than simply 'old white men are all a bit racist'.

Boss Hogg above raises the point above about education. This is a whole new area of discussion but I'm sure I've seen over the years that black kids are disadvantaged at school/attend poor schools which in turn leads them to leave school poorly educated and with few qualifications. Huge generalisation I know but it goes someway to explain why, whilst they may be great athletes unless they've done some further education during their playing career they could well be severely hampered when it comes to applying for positions, filling in CVs or impressing at interview?