Food for thought?

[Mutchy]

'All snakes and no ladders for black managers'

Football management for black former players is "pretty much all snakes and no ladders", the Black Footballers Partnership has said.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[wolfslair]

'All snakes and no ladders for black managers'

Football management for black former players is "pretty much all snakes and no ladders", the Black Footballers Partnership has said.

www.bbc.co.uk

This shows much more needs to be done to help BAME representation, but also improve how the community feels in the game and their prospects for their futures.

The stats around sackings is a sad thing to see! That does need more exploration and discussion as that should never be the case in our society!

But conversely, change takes time! Many clubs are doing more right now to improve opportunities, so it would be great to see how these numbers change every 5 years, then we know if all of the initiatives and public want for change in this space are working.

As football cannot deny there had been a major issue in this space, much worse than shown in these numbers if you go back a decade.

So it would be great to use this study and its great findings as a baseline for the future, as we cannot change the past, we can only change and do better in the future and you often don’t see the impact of the change in a major way straight away. But I would bet the figures now while not good, are significantly better than the 80’s, 90’, early noughties and even 2010’s.

Let’s hope that the initiatives and clubs who are driving for the change now keep it going and inspire others to try harder!

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Actions over words

 

[caradon wolf]

I have been impressed by Liam Rosenior each time I see him talking football. A highly articulate young man doing great things quietly at Hull City.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I have been impressed by Liam Rosenior each time I see him talking football. A highly articulate young man doing great things quietly at Hull City.

His Dad probably added to these statistics didn't he get sacked by Colin Lee after 10 minutes as Torquay manager (literally)?

 

[molineux man]

The BBC article states that Nuno is black - curious, never considered him to be black before.

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

The BBC article states that Nuno is black - curious, never considered him to be black before.

Ethnic minority

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

While i agree the stats dont look good at all,ive always believed if your good enough you will make it,no matter what your creed or colour
Theres thousands of great white footballers who never made the managerial grade too
Theres always been the managerial merry go round where the established managers just move from job to job, especially at the very top,so i dont agree its solely about colour
I mean who is more loved than George Elokobi?
Will he ever make a top manager? Who knows? But it wont be for a lack of empathy just a business decision
Ive no doubt 30/40 years ago there was bigotry in the board rooms, but not so much nowadays imo

 

[Mutchy]

While i agree the stats dont look good at all,ive always believed if your good enough you will make it,no matter what your creed or colour
Theres thousands of great white footballers who never made the managerial grade too
Theres always been the managerial merry go round where the established managers just move from job to job, especially at the very top,so i dont agree its solely about colour
I mean who is more loved than George Elokobi?
Will he ever make a top manager? Who knows? But it wont be for a lack of empathy just a business decision
Ive no doubt 30/40 years ago there was bigotry in the board rooms, but not so much nowadays imo

The stats would not appear to support any of that though.

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

The stats would not appear to support any of that though.

I agree,as i said the stats are stark
I do wonder though if things have improved in later years
The survey goes back 30 years and back then there was no doubt at all that black players were getting a raw deal in management
I do think that has changed significantly in the last decade or so
It would be interesting to see if thats born out in facts

 

[ombyman]

The BBC article states that Nuno is black - curious, never considered him to be black before.

Nuno was born on sao tome and principe (spelling!). That is an African island, the people are black. Not sure if he is of mixed heritage or not though.

 

[Flaneur]

The BBC article states that Nuno is black - curious, never considered him to be black before.

He grew up in Sao Tome which is an island just off the central coast of Africa, it was a Portuguese colony until 1975 (1 year after he was born)

 

[WolfLing]

Ive no doubt 30/40 years ago there was bigotry in the board rooms, but not so much nowadays imo

I would agree that most clubs would no longer have the same levels of bigotry and racism as they did 30/40 years ago. But like every business, behind closed doors some unfortunately still will.

The issue now is the racism of the past has huge knock on effects for the present.

Where non-black managers were preferred years ago, they are now the ones with the years of experience behind them, so they are the ones who are then preferred for jobs today. This is where the managerial merry-go-round effect comes from. He did OK there, so teams would rather employ based on experience than take a chance on someone without it.

It takes generations, and multiple retirements to break that cycle.

People are often very critical of positive discrimination incentives, as the long-term goal is a level playing field regardless of race, religion, etc. But getting to that level playing field will take a lot longer than it should without identifying and correcting years of discrimination the other way.

 

[molineux man]

Nuno was born on sao tome and principe (spelling!). That is an African island, the people are black. Not sure if he is of mixed heritage or not though.

Looked into it and apparently he has a black grandfather.

 

[SuperGran]

Looked into it and apparently he has a black grandfather.

His parents were mixed African and Portuguese

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

Why is there such a disconnect? Black players make up 43% of the premier league, so are massively overrepresented in comparison to the population make up. This doesn't appear to show a racial based bias in terms of player acquisition, so why is there at coach and management level? Unfortunately the report doesn't seem to investigate the problem. It would have been more useful if it had.

 

[wolfslair]

Why is there such a disconnect? Black players make up 43% of the premier league, so are massively overrepresented in comparison to the population make up. This doesn't appear to show a racial based bias in terms of player acquisition, so why is there at coach and management level? Unfortunately the report doesn't seem to investigate the problem. It would have been more useful if it had.

That is a far more complex question that needs properly looking into!

As I know a few BAME academy coaches who were ex pros, played prem and for their countries and they have ZERO intention of going beyond age grade as they love doing that and supporting the next generation and don’t see doing the senior first team roles and the stress that comes with it as worth it…..

So it would be great if someone looked into your point more!

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

The elephant in the room is football boardrooms being full of white old men who do the hiring and firing.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

The elephant in the room is football boardrooms being full of white old men who do the hiring and firing.

It can't be that simple though. I don't know what the make up of the average board is but any club that is being run by a bunch of old white men in club ties moaning about the empire and the state of young people today would quickly find themselves tumbling down the leagues.

 

[Ercall Wolves]

While i agree the stats dont look good at all,ive always believed if your good enough you will make it,no matter what your creed or colour
Theres thousands of great white footballers who never made the managerial grade too
Theres always been the managerial merry go round where the established managers just move from job to job, especially at the very top,so i dont agree its solely about colour
I mean who is more loved than George Elokobi?
Will he ever make a top manager? Who knows? But it wont be for a lack of empathy just a business decision
Ive no doubt 30/40 years ago there was bigotry in the board rooms, but not so much nowadays imo

Totally agree

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I've hesitated to enter this debate because I can't be bothered for the flak that I might get but on reflection there has to be a voice that speaks up for old white men, as I am one. I accept what SBK says, that the majority of boardrooms in this country will be populated by older, white, (well educated) men. I would suggest we want generally older and well educated people to run our companies and we are predominantly a white country. I don't accept at all that because you are an older white man you will discriminate against people of colour when interviewing candidates for a job. I haven't read the 'snakes and ladders' article because I'm sure it will annoy me but if The Black Footballers Partnership is saying it's all down and no ups for black managers and black former players I just don't buy that. There's loads of black managers (2 in the Prem), football media work is massively populated by former black players, FFS, Jermaine Jenas hosts the One Show! Virtually every tv show, from cooking programmes to travel shows to house renovation shows have black participants, again Dion Dublin does Cash in the Attic, or similar. In fact I'd be amazed to turn the telly on and not see an ex black footballer strutting his stuff! Imo there's a world of opportunity for former players, black, white, male and female both within football and outside.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

That is a far more complex question that needs properly looking into!

As I know a few BAME academy coaches who were ex pros, played prem and for their countries and they have ZERO intention of going beyond age grade as they love doing that and supporting the next generation and don’t see doing the senior first team roles and the stress that comes with it as worth it…..

So it would be great if someone looked into your point more!

It needs full investigation to find out

1. how many black coaches/managers applied for vacant positions say in the last 5 seasons?
2. how many who applied were interviewed?
3. to ask the owners of the clubs why they didn't employ a black manager if one applied?
4. if no black coaches or managers applied for vacant positions then why not?
5. Is the trend going up or down?
6. what is it particularly about coaching/management that is failing to attract and progress black candidates? when as NNW points out they are healthily represented in playing staff, punditry and the media in general. It cannot be solely down to racial bias?
7. why are high profile black players not moving into coaching or management after retirement. In the recent years you've had Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard, Parker and Woodgate go straight from playing into management. Why did none of their black colleagues follow suit? The only on I can think of is Sol Campbell recently

 

[Aurum Lupus]

The elephant in the room is football boardrooms being full of white old men who do the hiring and firing.

Are they though? Ours isn't, and we fired Nuno. Villa, Everton, Fulham, Man City, Newcastle, Sheff Utd and us all have non white owners.

The problem with this study is it is making historical statistics today's problem. If its bought up to date and then broken down in to decades I suspect you will see an improvement over time. The fact they didn't bother with the last 14 years data is very problematic, the data must be there, why didn't they include it, it cant have taken that long to write this report!

 

[Mutchy]

I've hesitated to enter this debate because I can't be bothered for the flak that I might get but on reflection there has to be a voice that speaks up for old white men, as I am one. I accept what SBK says, that the majority of boardrooms in this country will be populated by older, white, (well educated) men. I would suggest we want generally older and well educated people to run our companies and we are predominantly a white country. I don't accept at all that because you are an older white man you will discriminate against people of colour when interviewing candidates for a job. I haven't read the 'snakes and ladders' article because I'm sure it will annoy me but if The Black Footballers Partnership is saying it's all down and no ups for black managers and black former players I just don't buy that. There's loads of black managers (2 in the Prem), football media work is massively populated by former black players, FFS, Jermaine Jenas hosts the One Show! Virtually every tv show, from cooking programmes to travel shows to house renovation shows have black participants, again Dion Dublin does Cash in the Attic, or similar. In fact I'd be amazed to turn the telly on and not see an ex black footballer strutting his stuff! Imo there's a world of opportunity for former players, black, white, male and female both within football and outside.

Why are you commenting on an article you can't be bothered to read then? And forming an opinion on it regardless?
Two black managers out of twenty in the Prem is loads? Eighteen out of twenty white? Does that reflect the numbers of black and white players?

 

[WolfLing]

Why is there such a disconnect? Black players make up 43% of the premier league, so are massively overrepresented in comparison to the population make up. This doesn't appear to show a racial based bias in terms of player acquisition, so why is there at coach and management level? Unfortunately the report doesn't seem to investigate the problem. It would have been more useful if it had.

Around 2000-2010, player recruitment was focussed on fast, athletic players, which led to a huge increase in the number of black and mixed race youths being recruited into academies. That now shows in the disproportionate amount of black players in relation to the overall population.

With 43% black players, you'd expect that 43% of captains would also be black?

Black players have been captains for around 25% of all games this season. So they are under-represented in positions of leadership in comparison to the overall breakdown of players.

It's the same when you look outside of football. There's very few industries where positions of leadership for black individuals isn't lower in percentage terms that the overall population.

That filters into the coaching/management side too. They are effectively positions of leadership.

So yes, on the face of it black players making up 43% of the Premier League is way ahead of the overall population and suggests no racial bias at all. But the bias towards historically only recruiting those players because of their physical attributes is at best stereotypical, at worst racist.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

Around 2000-2010, player recruitment was focussed on fast, athletic players, which led to a huge increase in the number of black and mixed race youths being recruited into academies. That now shows in the disproportionate amount of black players in relation to the overall population.

With 43% black players, you'd expect that 43% of captains would also be black?

Black players have been captains for around 25% of all games this season. So they are under-represented in positions of leadership in comparison to the overall breakdown of players.

It's the same when you look outside of football. There's very few industries where positions of leadership for black individuals isn't lower in percentage terms that the overall population.

That filters into the coaching/management side too. They are effectively positions of leadership.

So yes, on the face of it black players making up 43% of the Premier League is way ahead of the overall population and suggests no racial bias at all. But the bias towards historically only recruiting those players because of their physical attributes is at best stereotypical, at worst racist.

I genuinely have no idea why this problem exists but putting it down to just racial bias seems very simplistic to me.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Totally agree

So it’s merely a coincidence that a game played by 30% plus bame individuals only produces 2% of managers?

 

[WolfLing]

I genuinely have no idea why this problem exists but putting it down to just racial bias seems very simplistic to me.

Yeah, it's not JUST racial bias.

It's loads of social and economic factors, some of which have historically come from places of discriminatory behaviour themselves.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

It can't be that simple though. I don't know what the make up of the average board is but any club that is being run by a bunch of old white men in club ties moaning about the empire and the state of young people today would quickly find themselves tumbling down the leagues.

It really is. It’s why if BAME ex players go into coaching they stay in the comfort of youth football because they know the opportunities aren’t there.

This debate comes up so often and the answer is plain to see, people reach far and wide to find explanations rather than the ugly truth which proportionally bame ex players don’t get the same opportunity as white ones or the proportion difference wouldn’t look so utterly ridiculous and inexcusable.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Are they though? Ours isn't, and we fired Nuno. Villa, Everton, Fulham, Man City, Newcastle, Sheff Utd and us all have non white owners.

The problem with this study is it is making historical statistics today's problem. If its bought up to date and then broken down in to decades I suspect you will see an improvement over time. The fact they didn't bother with the last 14 years data is very problematic, the data must be there, why didn't they include it, it cant have taken that long to write this report!

Owners aren’t boardrooms. How “hands on” are most those managers.

Is there an improvement over time? How many black managers have their been in 30 years of the premier league? You can definitely count them on two hands comfortably.

 

[WolfLing]

Owners aren’t boardrooms. How “hands on” are most those managers.

Is there an improvement over time? How many black managers have their been in 30 years of the premier league? You can definitely count them on two hands comfortably.

Maybe even on one if you're an Albion fan.

 

[WolfLing]

Owners aren’t boardrooms. How “hands on” are most those managers.

Is there an improvement over time? How many black managers have their been in 30 years of the premier league? You can definitely count them on two hands comfortably.

11 managers (9 permanent and 2 caretakers), across 16 managerial roles, in the entire history of the Premier League.

Only 3 have been employed by more than 1 club - Ruud Gullit, Chris Hughton and Nuno.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

It really is. It’s why if BAME ex players go into coaching they stay in the comfort of youth football because they know the opportunities aren’t there.

This debate comes up so often and the answer is plain to see, people reach far and wide to find explanations rather than the ugly truth which proportionally bame ex players don’t get the same opportunity as white ones or the proportion difference wouldn’t look so utterly ridiculous and inexcusable.

Do you honestly believe that if Gary O'Neill was black and he gave the same presentation to Matt Hobbs as he did we would have Frank Lampard or Dean Smith as our manager now though? I just find it hard to believe that qualified and quality black coaches are being turned down for jobs based solely on the colour of their skin. When we sacked Terry Connor did we do it because he was black or because he hadn't won a game in a third of a season and we'd been relegated? Should we have kept him on the following season?

Now, if there is a dearth of quality black applicants for some reason then of course that needs to be explored as to why. If good quality candidates aren't applying for jobs because they don't believe the opportunity will be given to them and on the flip side clubs aren't employing black coaches because they aren't getting enough quality applicants going for the jobs then that provides a conundrum that needs solving.

And before it gets jumped on I said a dearth of quality applicants, NOT a dearth of quality black coaches, as I am sure there are plenty. there's no reason there wouldn't be

 

[Supadavewolf]

In the recent years you've had Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard, Parker and Woodgate go straight from playing into management.

Seems like a good reason to employ a BAME manager!

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Do you honestly believe that if Gary O'Neill was black and he gave the same presentation to Matt Hobbs as he did we would have Frank Lampard or Dean Smith as our manager now though? I just find it hard to believe that qualified and quality black coaches are being turned down for jobs based solely on the colour of their skin. When we sacked Terry Connor did we do it because he was black or because he hadn't won a game in a third of a season and we'd been relegated? Should we have kept him on the following season?

Now, if there is a dearth of quality black applicants for some reason then of course that needs to be explored as to why. If good quality candidates aren't applying for jobs because they don't believe the opportunity will be given to them and on the flip side clubs aren't employing black coaches because they aren't getting enough quality applicants going for the jobs then that provides a conundrum that needs solving.

And before it gets jumped on I said a dearth of quality applicants, NOT a dearth of quality black coaches, as I am sure there are plenty. there's no reason there wouldn't be

You can find it as hard to believe as you want, the statistics are as clear as the nose on your face. Do you honestly think it’s just coincidence that so many black players opt to retire completely from the game compared to their white counterparts??

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

Seems like a good reason to employ a BAME manager!

It would certainly make me think twice about employing a recently retired player! But my point was why none of their black teammates, with the exception of Sol Campbell, had followed them into management. Why didn't Rio Ferdinand, Ashley Cole, David James etc become managers, all of them high profile players who surely would have found clubs willing to employ them

 

[TriumphWolf]

I have never seen any info regarding when players leave the game what proportion of them choose to embark on a coaching/managerial path. Once they have started down that path, which of those individuals who would be classified as BAME then believe that they have been overlooked for a role on the grounds of their ethnicity.
I don’t know the answers, but I suspect there may be many aspects which influence the success (or otherwise) of former players in the managerial merry-go-round.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

You can find it as hard to believe as you want, the statistics are as clear as the nose on your face. Do you honestly think it’s just coincidence that so many black players opt to retire completely from the game compared to their white counterparts??

I'm sorry but I don't agree. The statistics clearly show there is a lack of black representation at the top level in coaching and management, that part is certainly true, but they don't say why this is. You've chosen to believe that it is down to racism in football, and I choose to believe that that is just one of many variables that need to be explored to understand the full nature of the problem, and only then can you get to grips with it.

If you don't bother to fully investigate it and just apply post hoc ergo propter hoc then you'll end up in a blind alley.

 

[Aurum Lupus]

Owners aren’t boardrooms. How “hands on” are most those managers.

Is there an improvement over time? How many black managers have their been in 30 years of the premier league? You can definitely count them on two hands comfortably.

No they're not, but our board isn't white, so what do those boards look like? I genuinely don't know. But if a non white board removes or doesn't employ a black manager is that acceptable?

We'll never know what the improvement over time is without the data which this report doesn't fully represent. As it stands without the additional info its a pointless report. 14 years is a long hap to not include.

Also this wasn't done out of the academics good will, it was commissioned by a pressure group, so will have been written to their brief. Which again makes me question why they have failed to include the last 14 years. Does it show an improvement that doesn't support their agenda? We'll never know unless they bring it up to date.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Why are you commenting on an article you can't be bothered to read then? And forming an opinion on it regardless?
Two black managers out of twenty in the Prem is loads? Eighteen out of twenty white? Does that reflect the numbers of black and white players?

Because I know exactly what it is going to say. Every news bulletin and tv documentaries are full of headlines like this across every walk of life. That is why I did not confine my reply to just football. I assume the article is going to say all these white boardrooms are all racist and have been for tens of years. I don't believe it. There will be many reasons why so few black players have made it in football management, racism may well be one but it goes far, far deeper than just that imo. As I said above many black ex-footballers go on to have top careers in football commentating, punditry and analysis plus careers in the tv and media. Football management is just one career open to them and at present there are not many doing it; who's to say in 5 years time it will not change for the better?