Wolves 22/23 accounts

[Northampton_wolf]

How on Earth are we making a loss of any size this season?
We have the Neves and Nunez money plus a huge drop on the wage bill a decent cup run etc
If we cant make a profit this season we are royally ****ed

We dont have a huge drop on the wage bill because of the payoffs, Jonny JL staff etc. its not as massive as youd expect

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

How on Earth are we making a loss of any size this season?
We have the Neves and Nunez money plus a huge drop on the wage bill a decent cup run etc
If we cant make a profit this season we are royally ****ed

Agreed, hard to understand.

Madeley was asked about it in the comments but hasn't said anything.

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

We dont have a huge drop on the wage bill because of the payoffs, Jonny JL staff etc. its not as massive as youd expect

I would be amazed if its not substantially lower even with the pay offs,but even so with the transfer profits we have to be making money, plus the higher league position hopefully and decent cup run
If we are not i cant see any scenario where we actually do make a profit ever

 

[Sedgley Gold N Black]

Yes, I believe so.

Each club announces their losses every year which are black and white as you say. There are links to their respective accounts and it has to be right for that accounting period.

With PSR it's a lot more complex as we don't know what the 'allowable expenses' exactly entail, which opens room for them to be 'creative' as you put it.

For example, of Villa's £120m loss, the Express & Star journalist has said that £56m of it will be deducted for PSR purposes.
With Wolves, Madeley has said we are forecasting to announce a loss of £39m for 2023/24, but when 'allowable expenses are removed' the loss is £22m for PSR.

(We don't know how the £39m loss figure is true, but the point is highlighting how much you can get it down.)

Everton recorded losses of £371m over a three-year period (needs to be £105m), which brought the charge. However, they were eventually done for losses of £124.5m. They're accused of being the most 'creative' as you can tell by the figures...

With all of that in mind, it's genuinely hard to fathom how Wolves are/were even close at all to breaching the rules.

The £56m mentioned in the article is for COVID related (allowable) losses, so presumably is only really accounted for in the 20/21 season, which would have turned that season from a £38m loss to a £18m profit (plus any other allowable losses) a PSR POV.

We don't know how much Villa have shaved off from their £120m loss this year but an £18m+ profit is rolling off and being replaced by a season where they've spent even bigger fees and increased wages further.

Unless I've missed some announcement/commentary relating to us, we didn't seem to take advantage of the allowable COVID losses as much as others have, bit of a false economy though as it's just postponing the inevitable to a future cycle.

Villa are going to need to raise significant funds though, it's just if it's needed before 30th June or after.

 

[wwbug]

We dont have a huge drop on the wage bill because of the payoffs, Jonny JL staff etc. its not as massive as youd expect

You mean Nunes Neves Traore, Jimenez , Costa , Moutinho Collins , Lopetegui and his mates were not paid that much !

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

The £56m mentioned in the article is for COVID related (allowable) losses, so presumably is only really accounted for in the 20/21 season, which would have turned that season from a £38m loss to a £18m profit (plus any other allowable losses) a PSR POV.

We don't know how much Villa have shaved off from their £120m loss this year but an £18m+ profit is rolling off and being replaced by a season where they've spent even bigger fees and increased wages further.

Unless I've missed some announcement/commentary relating to us, we didn't seem to take advantage of the allowable COVID losses as much as others have, bit of a false economy though as it's just postponing the inevitable to a future cycle.

Villa are going to need to raise significant funds though, it's just if it's needed before 30th June or after.

I think we claimed £17 mil where as Everton claimed over £100 mil lol

 

[WickedWolfie]

I think we claimed £17 mil where as Everton claimed over £100 mil lol

I seem to recall that Everton claimed more than the other 19 PL teams combined.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

One thing the accounts do show is that by hook or by crook we need to find some ways of increasing our turnover and this idea that we shouldn't be looking to grow the brand abroad and should concentrate on a local fanbase is sheer lunacy

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

these rules and results need simplifying for the fans.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Our turnover isnt big enough, to withstand JLs wages and pay off.

Willb e better next year dont have it, and most of the big wages cut off,

Still transfer expenditure included in this year (Amoritsation, jonny pay off etc) plus potential future liabilites which looks like performance and appearance related terms for existing players, which i expect with avoiding relegation this year and a cup run will need to be paid too

I'm sorry, I just don't get that. We know they were paid off for about £10m. No way in my mind we aren't covering that with the sales we've made.

Also we reported a profit of £18.4m in 20/21, this is what's dropping off the rolling calculation. We just passed last season (we're told) and yet we can make a £22m loss this season and be OK?

 

[Northampton_wolf]

I'm sorry, I just don't get that. We know they were paid off for about £10m. No way in my mind we aren't covering that with the sales we've made.

Also we reported a profit of £18.4m in 20/21, this is what's dropping off the rolling calculation. We just passed last season (we're told) and yet we can make a £22m loss this season and be OK?

PSR look at my above post getting to minus 101m

Those forecasts were wolves getting 17th also, probably not accounting for theos sale etc.

What wages are off the books

Nunes, Neves, Traore, Jimenez, Moutinho

Lets say thats 300k a week - 15.6m

Pay off for JL 10m? with staff?

thats 5.6m

We then have jonny pay off could be what 1.6 to2m

Then new wages, Kilman massive increase on contract dohertys will be on 3.1m a year i expect (60k)

Now we have GONs wage and staff ar less than JL and probably Lage

So we have probably shed 10m off the wage bill only


Coady was already being paid by everton so nothing there

 

[Northampton_wolf]

In the year where we made 18m profit our wage bill was 95m

We were 45m above that last year

Our turnover was 132m but with the covid 19 affect you can see 190m

we may get to 175m 180m turnover for the year.

But our wage bill and operating expenses are high






Its pretty hard to get your around how you can run at 180k loss a day.


But you must remember about interest

We have gone from BOE interest rate of 0.75%

to Basically an an average of 5% across this season

What does this mean

Well if you have loans and charges we have gone from interest of 400k in 19/20 to 10m in 2022/23

2022/23 interest averages about 2%

your probably looking at 25m maybe 30m servicing interest for this year

So you can see even with increased turnover how a jump from 400k interest payments to above 10m and likely 20m already wipes that 18m profit

 

[Northampton_wolf]

I'm sorry, I just don't get that. We know they were paid off for about £10m. No way in my mind we aren't covering that with the sales we've made.

Also we reported a profit of £18.4m in 20/21, this is what's dropping off the rolling calculation. We just passed last season (we're told) and yet we can make a £22m loss this season and be OK?

On this one

My calcs

On the -17m each year for deductibles

mean we would come in at -102m this year allowing for the 39m loss

but it wont be that because we are performing better than the forecasts

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

PSR look at my above post getting to minus 101m

Those forecasts were wolves getting 17th also, probably not accounting for theos sale etc.

What wages are off the books

Nunes, Neves, Traore, Jimenez, Moutinho

Lets say thats 300k a week - 15.6m

Pay off for JL 10m? with staff?

thats 5.6m

We then have jonny pay off could be what 1.6 to2m

Then new wages, Kilman massive increase on contract dohertys will be on 3.1m a year i expect (60k)

Now we have GONs wage and staff ar less than JL and probably Lage

So we have probably shed 10m off the wage bill only


Coady was already being paid by everton so nothing there

I believe we got rid of around 25 players,including the likes of Collins Podence Costa Cundle and Giles on top of the ones you mentioned
Ok some were on way less than the likes of Jiminez but all add up
We bought in several players but the only one of note was Cunha who was in the wage bill previously and possibly Bellegarde
So i believe it way more than £10 mil but we will see

 

[wolvesjoe]

In the year where we made 18m profit our wage bill was 95m

We were 45m above that last year

Our turnover was 132m but with the covid 19 affect you can see 190m

we may get to 175m 180m turnover for the year.

But our wage bill and operating expenses are high

View attachment 40946

View attachment 40947


Its pretty hard to get your around how you can run at 180k loss a day.


But you must remember about interest

We have gone from BOE interest rate of 0.75%

to Basically an an average of 5% across this season

What does this mean

Well if you have loans and charges we have gone from interest of 400k in 19/20 to 10m in 2022/2

2022/23 interest averages about 2%

your probably look at 25m maybe 30m servicing interest for this year

So you can see even with increased turnover how a jump from 400k interest payments to above 10m and likely 20m already wipes that 18m profit

But even borrowing a 100m at 5% is "only" 5m a year, and it is hard to see borrowings above that.

My bet is on a surplus of between 50 and 60m this season, and Wolves will have basically reset the finances for the
next two seasons. That surplus this year will allow for 2 seasons' investment at a middle range. When other clubs are
struggling to make their budgets conform, that will give powerful leverage in the transfer market.

Some of that surplus could have been used this January, and it is a major shame that it wasnt.

But we should get confirmation one way or the other sometime between next December and January.

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

But even borrowing a 100m at 5% is "only" 5m a year, and it is hard to see borrowings above that.

My bet is on a surplus of between 50 and 60m this season, and Wolves will have basically reset the finances for the
next two seasons. That surplus this year will allow for 2 seasons' investment at a middle range. When other clubs are
struggling to make their budgets conform, that will give powerful leverage in the transfer market.

Some of that surplus could have been used this January, and it is a major shame that it wasnt.

But we should get confirmation one way or the other sometime between next December and January.

I think we will get confirmation when we see the summer spend
I think we will have shown a profit this year but maybe more like £20-£30 mil

 

[WKFWolf]

I think we will get confirmation when we see the summer spend
I think we will have shown a profit this year but maybe more like £20-£30 mil

this would be my expectation, and purchases will largely depend on the fee we get for Neto and selling of a large portion of the loan army

 

[Northampton_wolf]

I believe we got rid of around 25 players,including the likes of Collins Podence Costa Cundle and Giles on top of the ones you mentioned
Ok some were on way less than the likes of Jiminez but all add up
We bought in several players but the only one of note was Cunha who was in the wage bill previously and possibly Bellegarde
So i believe it way more than £10 mil but we will see

i think we shed 25m but paid 10m to JL and staff plus jonny

Cundle/giles wages were already paid by middlesborough etc.

plus new signings up to 15m

 

[Sedgley Gold N Black]

I think we claimed £17 mil where as Everton claimed over £100 mil lol

Have managed to find it, £26m in total split as £7m in 19/20 and £19m in 20/21.

So our "profit" from PSR perspective that season was arguably double the reported figure of £18m, that might explain why next year is tighter than the headline figures suggest for us.

 

[brianm]

Wages are more or less right at 70% of turnover, which tells me the club are just about sane with their spending. It should be okay.

Villa are around 90% of turnover just on wages. That's very bad. I don't know how they are passing UEFA's standards for th conference league, never mind if they make the champion's league. I think they decided to push and guessed the FFP/PSR wouldn't have teeth, and they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar..

 

[QB Wolf]

I have never read so much conjecture in my whole life.

I find the conspiracy theory stuff regarding January so infuriating too, I'm pretty sure if the club could have got the right deal done they would. Just look at how they mobilised the January before.

I think we got lucky with the Neves and Nunes deals but there you go , looking forward to the summer.

 

[Monk]

Villa are around 90% of turnover just on wages. That's very bad. I don't know how they are passing UEFA's standards.

Villa have posted a loss of £120 m for last season and the £100m they had for grealish drops of next time - they could be royaly screwed next season - we can but hope. I have a new song for Villa:

Mind the cash mind the cash Aston Villa

Mind the cash mind the cash I say

Mind the cash mind the cash Aston Villa

A points deduction is on its way

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

Wages are more or less right at 70% of turnover, which tells me the club are just about sane with their spending. It should be okay.

Villa are around 90% of turnover just on wages. That's very bad. I don't know how they are passing UEFA's standards.

They are just squeezing under the 90% this season. They are going to have big problems in the next two seasons getting that down to 70%

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

They are just squeezing under the 90% this season. They are going to have big problems in the next two seasons getting that down to 70%

Well correct me if I'm wrong of course, but if you take their wage costs (which includes some people who won't count for FFP) those are around 90% of turnover, but that's not the EUFA rule, which is 'player costs' which also includes amortisation, which is another £90m.

 

[wolvesjoe]

From what Martin Samuel keeps hinting in theTimes, there is strong pressure from premier clubs against the full adoption of the 70% cap.

 

[Darvo]

Are the FFP/PSR figures submitted to the Premier League in the public domain?

This is all as clear as mud.

 

[Werewolf of Wombourne]

Well correct me if I'm wrong of course, but if you take their wage costs (which includes some people who won't count for FFP) those are around 90% of turnover, but that's not the EUFA rule, which is 'player costs' which also includes amortisation, which is another £90m.

You could be right, but if so it's odd that this hasn't been mentioned at all during the season. They were pretty quick when it was us in 2018/19

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

From what Martin Samuel keeps hinting in theTimes, there is strong pressure from premier clubs against the full adoption of the 70% cap.

Yeah because they know it’s going to stop their big spending very quickly give advantage to teams like Liverpool, Brighton, Wolves and Brentford who are mostly careful with their funds

 

[oldgoldheart]

It’s madness really. Football needs to wake up.

If teams in the richest league in the world can’t make a profit even when selling some of their best players and not buying replacements something is inherently wrong. Can’t wait to see Forests accounts!

But this “richest league in the world” stuff is misleading. Wolves is quite a small business. Its an investment banking model but with little way of growing revenue. The only biggish businesses are the sky 6. The rest are not. The issues include:

Almost impossible to grow revenue
High fixed costs
Uncertain revenue ( relegation)
High agents and transfer fees. Imagine a business where you gambled on new asset purchases like football clubs do.

 

[oldgoldheart]

The main plus is that we moved early. I see player values falling which in turn will cause more losses. There might be exceptions but january might be just the start. We might look back on neves and nunes as genius sales

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

From what Martin Samuel keeps hinting in theTimes, there is strong pressure from premier clubs against the full adoption of the 70% cap.

I can see how many would be against it, but equally wouldn't many teams be in favour when half the league (at least) are hoping to get into Europe when they'll have to abide by it.

 

[Ironfistedmonk]

I think it's difficult for us to increase our turnover to any extent without starting to win things and qualify for Europe regularly, the only way to grow the brand abroad is to garner glory hunters, and you need the glory for that

 

[hollo]

Aren't teams going to be at risk of ffp if they start blowing 50 million on players.

 

[WickedWolfie]

I think it's difficult for us to increase our turnover to any extent without starting to win things and qualify for Europe regularly, the only way to grow the brand abroad is to garner glory hunters, and you need the glory for that

The glory plus keynote foreign players e.g. Hwang, Raul.

 

[Supadavewolf]

The glory plus keynote foreign players e.g. Hwang, Raul.

Beat me to it.

 

[wwbug]

We dont have a huge drop on the wage bill because of the payoffs, Jonny JL staff etc. its not as massive as youd expect

Are you saying we paid a lot of money to JL and staff to terminate a contract when they were the ones publicly threatening to walk out because we weren’t good enough ?

 

[Northampton_wolf]

Are you saying we paid a lot of money to JL and staff to terminate a contract when they were the ones publicly threatening to walk out because we weren’t good enough ?

Yes

 

[wwbug]

Yes

A lot ! Or a compromise .
It must have been a weak contract . He constructed his own dismissal .

 

[Northampton_wolf]

A lot ! Or a compromise .
It must have been a weak contract . He constructed his own dismissal .

A lot he's on 8m a year so we had 20m left to pay on his contract

Plus his staff

We compromised I believe something between 5 and 10m upfront for all staff in a fixed fee

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I think it's difficult for us to increase our turnover to any extent without starting to win things and qualify for Europe regularly, the only way to grow the brand abroad is to garner glory hunters, and you need the glory for that

Well said. I said similar, I think on the Hwang thread, a few thousand Korean fans buying a shirt adds diddly squat to our income. Glory brings in fans, both home and overseas. Tbh I don't want 'plastic ' fans in UK supporting us when we do well. We sell out all home games so not sure increasing our turnover can be fan-linked. We need to win things, we need a bigger ground and we need to be smarter in the transfer market.