Matheus Cunha

[WolfLing]

Comparing generations always creates far more heat than light. I loved Waggy and a host of others from late 50s and 70s, but before we get carried away with just how 'great' the likes of Richards, Bull, Wagstaffe, Hibbitt and so on and so on were, we should ask ourselves a simple question: "If they were SO good, how come they have but a handful of international caps between them?

Moutinho (admittedly mostly before he joined us) over a hundred, Patricio 107, Jimenez 104, Saiss 82, Neves 45, Jota 36, and of current crop Semedo 27, Sarabia 26 (and many on here thought both were rubbish!), Lemina 25, Cunha has 11 already for Brazil, Neto 5, Toti 1, Sa 1,

Yes - for England we had Billy with 105 and Ron with 49, Bert Williams 24, but also Jimmy Mullen 12, Bill Slater 12, Ince 53 (mostly elsewhere) Bobby Thompson 8, Bailey 2, John Richards 1, Hibbitt 0, Wagstaffe 0, Coady 10 (and of course throw in a few Welsh, Irish and Scottish players - but again few have many caps - apart from Hennessy (109) Dave Edwards (43) Dougan 43, Frank Munro 9.....

We have not exactly been blessed with many 'great' players over the years. In fact, the caps won whilst playing for us is pitifully small ... until recent years. So perhaps we should cut the 'younger element' some slack and allow them to hero-worship the likes of Rui, Raul, Ruben, Romain, Diogo, Nelson, Pablo and even Conor... And in future Joao and who else...? Bellegarde? Doyle? Who knows....

I think a lot has to do with how many English players there were back then. You can't pick them all.

We had a few like you say that were shoe-ins, but others that had hardly any caps.

Same happened in the 60's with United's great league and European Cup winning sides. They had great English players like Alex Stepney, David Sadler, Brian Kidd and Bill Foulkes, who only got a handful of England caps between them.

Nowadays, every top player is an international, as there are so many more competitive international teams, and so many more games.

I think judging any criteria based on international caps between eras is very difficult as a result.

 

[MickHolmesFanClub]

It's always a nice debate to have when discussing best players/teams but it is extremely difficult to compare across eras as the game has changed so much in so many ways.

I started watching Wolves in 1970 so can only talk about players I have watched since then when speaking of "the best" but my Dad used to wax lyrical about the likes of Peter Broadbent and, of course, Billy Wright.

If greatness is measured by what a player has achieved then, surely, Billy with 105 England caps, 3 league titles and an FA Cup has to be the 'greatest' player to represent our club. It doesn't necessarily mean he is the most gifted/talented however.

As I say, a nice debate to have and there really is no right or wrong answer. It's very subjective and can be dictated by who you have actually seen play.

As for Cunha, he is, in my opinion, our best player in the current squad but where that puts him in an all-time list? Who knows? Just enjoy players while they are here

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

The age old who was the best eh
Impossible to compare eras
Ofc us oldies ,ive seen all the teams from 1958 onwards,will reminisce about our greats of yesteryear and rightly so
They were great players of those eras,things move on and the game is so different now in so many ways
Talking about international caps is just as futile
Ill never know why Wagstaffe,Hibbit and Richards had so few caps they deserved way more recognition,and even in the few they had they were played out of position,but i digress
Cunha is a fine footballer, and i hope this injury doesnt derail his best season so far,but he hasnt even had a full season with us yet,so to put him on a pedestal as one of the greats is premature in the extreme
If he stays another few years perhaps then he will earn the accollades ,but a few good games hasnt earned him that just yet

 

[Mancwolf56]

The age old who was the best eh
Impossible to compare eras
Ofc us oldies ,ive seen all the teams from 1958 onwards,will reminisce about our greats of yesteryear and rightly so
They were great players of those eras,things move on and the game is so different now in so many ways
Talking about international caps is just as futile
Ill never know why Wagstaffe,Hibbit and Richards had so few caps they deserved way more recognition,and even in the few they had they were played out of position,but i digress
Cunha is a fine footballer, and i hope this injury doesnt derail his best season so far,but he hasnt even had a full season with us yet,so to put him on a pedestal as one of the greats is premature in the extreme
If he stays another few years perhaps then he will earn the accollades ,but a few good games hasnt earned him that just yet

It all depends what we mean by ‘best’. If Messi were to join us for just 6 months he would undoubtedly be the ‘best’ player to play for us in terms of ability but would he make the top 100 if you judge it on his overall impact on the club which clearly would be limited

 

[Munich_Wolf]

Watching football from even the early part of this century is hilarious. The players barely run compared to now. I threw on some old German football from the 70s to watch Beckenbauer etc and it's just a different game. These guys look like they're playing with a cigarette dangling from their lip.

With modern standards of training, technology, etc I'm sure they would look better, but the athletic demands of the game have changed dramatically. Comparisons aren't very fruitful.

It's still the same human body, they would look the same as players of this era given the same chances. Exactly who would be better or worse on a player-by-player basis no one knows.

 

[brianm]

It's still the same human body, they would look the same as players of this era given the same chances. Exactly who would be better or worse on a player-by-player basis no one knows.

Yes, but people have different capacities for elite performance even with training. Skillful players who don't quite have the endurance to keep up with the game just couldn't hang.

 

[GoldenHorseshoe]

Comparing generations always creates far more heat than light. I loved Waggy and a host of others from late 50s and 70s, but before we get carried away with just how 'great' the likes of Richards, Bull, Wagstaffe, Hibbitt and so on and so on were, we should ask ourselves a simple question: "If they were SO good, how come they have but a handful of international caps between them?

Moutinho (admittedly mostly before he joined us) over a hundred, Patricio 107, Jimenez 104, Saiss 82, Neves 45, Jota 36, and of current crop Semedo 27, Sarabia 26 (and many on here thought both were rubbish!), Lemina 25, Cunha has 11 already for Brazil, Neto 5, Toti 1, Sa 1,

Yes - for England we had Billy with 105 and Ron with 49, Bert Williams 24, but also Jimmy Mullen 12, Bill Slater 12, Ince 53 (mostly elsewhere) Bobby Thompson 8, Bailey 2, John Richards 1, Hibbitt 0, Wagstaffe 0, Coady 10 (and of course throw in a few Welsh, Irish and Scottish players - but again few have many caps - apart from Hennessy (109) Dave Edwards (43) Dougan 43, Frank Munro 9.....

We have not exactly been blessed with many 'great' players over the years. In fact, the caps won whilst playing for us is pitifully small ... until recent years. So perhaps we should cut the 'younger element' some slack and allow them to hero-worship the likes of Rui, Raul, Ruben, Romain, Diogo, Nelson, Pablo and even Conor... And in future Joao and who else...? Bellegarde? Doyle? Who knows....

That's easy, London bias, (lack of caps).
I give you Parkin, Peter Knowles vs his brother Cyril. Mike Bailey, Wagstaffe etc etc.
There always was a Londoncentric bias.

 

[SA Wolf]

Ridiculous comment.

My first Wolves game was in 1988 so what I am supposed to say?

Yes, Dave Wagstaffe who I never saw play as I wasn’t born is the best ball carrier I’ve seen in a Wolves shirt.

It was tongue-in-cheek, however, you don't need to have seen the players live. There's plenty of Youtube coverage as well as written literature and information from other sources.
I never saw Billy Wright play, but I've seen footage, read books and reaching 100 England caps (the first to do so), indicates that he was a little bit decent.

 

[Wolf in Kenilworth]

It was tongue-in-cheek, however, you don't need to have seen the players live. There's plenty of Youtube coverage as well as written literature and information from other sources.
I never saw Billy Wright play, but I've seen footage, read books and reaching 100 England caps (the first to do so), indicates that he was a little bit decent.

Billy Wright got 100 caps?!?
I never knew that…..

So I’ll base my own opinion on YouTube clips then and the written word? Yeah, sure.

 

[SA Wolf]

Billy Wright got 100 caps?!?
I never knew that…..

So I’ll base my own opinion on YouTube clips then and the written word? Yeah, sure.

You seem a bit stroppy for what is supposed to be a fun thread, then.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Pre- 1992. nothing counts. Football only started with the Premier League.

You're so right, how ****ing silly of me. Sad to think the likes of Doog, Richards and Billy Wright are banished into a sort of nether football world that has no relevance or value today. I think the Mods should put our date of birth under our user names (rather than things like 'never shuts up'). It would add some context to certain posts, certainly about before and after 1992.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I’m 45 so no.

And to be so condescending as to say I don’t realise we have had good sides prior to recent times is insulting.

So is insulting the memory of truly great Wolves heroes like Hibbitt and Wagstaffe by comparing Cunha to them. I'm not saying Cunha won't in a season or 2 have earned the right to be mentioned in the same breath as these 2 and others but right now he's played 30 games (?) for us and only in the last 15 or so has he started to show his ability.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Come on mate, you're getting carried away here, there players you mention are my era too and I loved many of them, plus knocker Knowles (my favorite), but Cunha definitely deserves to be mentioned in the same vein. The fact that he's been here just a short time is a different argument altogether.

Length of time at a club has a massive bearing on how a player is viewed historically. A player who played for us say for half a season, however good, would imo never make it into a list of 'greats'. Cunha has not been here a season and it's only recently that he's showing his potential. He may go on to be one of our greats but he needs to produce the goods consistently for a season or 2 imo.

 

[loppers86]

i didn’t say Cunha was a Wolves great, i said he was the best player to play for wolves (granted i only saw from ‘parkes, palmer, parkin, bailey’ onwards)…

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Watching football from even the early part of this century is hilarious. The players barely run compared to now. I threw on some old German football from the 70s to watch Beckenbauer etc and it's just a different game. These guys look like they're playing with a cigarette dangling from their lip.

With modern standards of training, technology, etc I'm sure they would look better, but the athletic demands of the game have changed dramatically. Comparisons aren't very fruitful.

I agree it's ridiculous to compare footballers from different eras but for old uns like me it's great fun.

 

[WW1963]

If it's a Nuno and GON combined XI, it has to be 3-4-3.

But yeah, if you're freestyling that would work.

I'd also want GON to manage over Nuno.

 

[wolvesaywe]

I love watching and reading about old footy but viewed through a modern lens the standard is absolutely atrocious

It's futile to compare. Imagine Cunha turning his man and setting off on a 50 yard dribble on the 70s Baseball Ground pitch in December. He wouldn't get 50 inches

 

[tonto]

You're so right, how ****ing silly of me. Sad to think the likes of Doog, Richards and Billy Wright are banished into a sort of nether football world that has no relevance or value today. I think the Mods should put our date of birth under our user names (rather than things like 'never shuts up'). It would add some context to certain posts, certainly about before and after 1992.

Old and grumpy under mine

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I'd love to know the top 100 if he isn't in it. Considering 45 year worth of players can be wrote off apart from a few in Nuno era.

I see BSK has not joined in this discussion but I bet you he's seen and remembers 100 better players than Cunha going back to the Billy Wright era. Even before BW we had the likes of Stan Cullis, Johnny Hancocks, Jimmy Mullen, Roy Pritchard, Jesse Pye and Dennis Westcott off the top of my head.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Billy Wright got 100 caps?!?
I never knew that…..

So I’ll base my own opinion on YouTube clips then and the written word? Yeah, sure.

You could take the word from some of us on here who were lucky enough to have seen Wolves since the 60s/70s? Believe me Cunha, as good as he is, doesn't hold a candle to many of those players and some from the era before me, like Billy Wright and Stan Cullis.

 

[tonto]

I love watching and reading about old footy but viewed through a modern lens the standard is absolutely atrocious

It's futile to compare. Imagine Cunha turning his man and setting off on a 50 yard dribble on the 70s Baseball Ground pitch in December. He wouldn't get 50 inches

I have to say on cup final day, the only match showed live, early in a morning the telly went on and all clips from previous finals were show
Me and my brother laughed our heads of at how slow the games from the 1950s were much to the annoyance of my dad
I now see my hero’s being seen as inferior to today’s players, probably fair comment but they were the best of their time, what else could you ask for

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I love watching and reading about old footy but viewed through a modern lens the standard is absolutely atrocious

It's futile to compare. Imagine Cunha turning his man and setting off on a 50 yard dribble on the 70s Baseball Ground pitch in December. He wouldn't get 50 inches

Dave Wagstaffe and Kenny Hibbitt did it and against defenders like Billy Bremner, Chopper Harris and Norman Hunter!

 

[Saltyjim]

That's easy, London bias, (lack of caps).
I give you Parkin, Peter Knowles vs his brother Cyril. Mike Bailey, Wagstaffe etc etc.
There always was a Londoncentric bias.

In the 70’s I’d have to disagree. Majority of capped players in that decade were from the most successful clubs, Leeds, Liverpool and even United, though they weren’t that successful in that period. Apart from Arsenal in 1971 London clubs weren’t much to shout about in terms of title challenges.

 

[Wolf in Kenilworth]

So is insulting the memory of truly great Wolves heroes like Hibbitt and Wagstaffe by comparing Cunha to them. I'm not saying Cunha won't in a season or 2 have earned the right to be mentioned in the same breath as these 2 and others but right now he's played 30 games (?) for us and only in the last 15 or so has he started to show his ability.

You’ve lost it.

I am not saying he’s the best ever FFS. I’m saying he’s the best best ball carrier I have seen play for us. At no point have I compared him to anyone, other than the players I have seen play for us since I started watching us. Age 9 in 1988.

 

[WolvesinBrum]

Dave Wagstaffe and Kenny Hibbitt did it and against defenders like Billy Bremner, Chopper Harris and Norman Hunter!

And on absolutely shocking surfaces in the main!

 

[North West Wanderer]

player comparable to era? nowhere near year.

player in terms of ability? he’s up there.

two very different conversations.

 

[DavidWebb]

Silly points really. EVERYONE knows it’s corica

And this proves that the Mix will fall out over just about anything.

Never change people.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

You’ve lost it.

I am not saying he’s the best ever FFS. I’m saying he’s the best best ball carrier I have seen play for us. At no point have I compared him to anyone, other than the players I have seen play for us since I started watching us. Age 9 in 1988.

I haven't 'lost it' as you say, I'm just trying to put his contribution so far in some historical context. Perhaps you are right and he may be the best ball carrier since 1988. Bar the Nuno side that doesn't say too much tbh.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

And on absolutely shocking surfaces in the main!

And with no VAR and refs to help! Amazing really when you look back more players did not get broken legs!

 

[Glow69]

I see BSK has not joined in this discussion but I bet you he's seen and remembers 100 better players than Cunha going back to the Billy Wright era. Even before BW we had the likes of Stan Cullis, Johnny Hancocks, Jimmy Mullen, Roy Pritchard, Jesse Pye and Dennis Westcott off the top of my head.

Not a chance. 1980 to 2024 probably have 10 very good players in that period.

No chance from 1950 to 1980 there's been 90 players that are better then Cunha.

 

[JohnB]

All this talk has got me thinking about a Nuno/GON combined XI.

And I would agree, front 3 in that has to be Jota/Raul/Neto, with Cunha first choice from the bench.

I would have Cunha Raul and Neto with Jota starting on rotation/off the bench. Remember when we sold Jota that Neto was regularly starting ahead of him.

PS - imagine that as a front line and with rotation! Those were the days my friend.

 

[Bawtry Wolf]

In the 70’s I’d have to disagree. Majority of capped players in that decade were from the most successful clubs, Leeds, Liverpool and even United, though they weren’t that successful in that period. Apart from Arsenal in 1971 London clubs weren’t much to shout about in terms of title challenges.

The 70s was an interesting period for caps as there were a plethora of players capped from a range of different clubs, not necessarily in the top division. By the end of the decade there was a majority of Liverpool but earlier you had QPR players (Gerry Francis was England captain), Derby, Man City, West Ham, Southampton (in division 2), Sheffield Utd, as well as Arsenal, Chelsea, Everton, Liverpool, Albion, Man Utd. It was really a mixture

 

[Kebab Warrior]

Watching football from even the early part of this century is hilarious. The players barely run compared to now. I threw on some old German football from the 70s to watch Beckenbauer etc and it's just a different game. These guys look like they're playing with a cigarette dangling from their lip.

With modern standards of training, technology, etc I'm sure they would look better, but the athletic demands of the game have changed dramatically. Comparisons aren't very fruitful.

I recently watched some YouTube of the galacticos era Madrid. All supreme footballers but they all looked slow and heavy compared to today and the actual football looks so slow… that’s not even that long ago.

 

[NothingButNeto]

Timeline revealed for Matheus Cunha's Wolves return

Gary O’Neil has revealed he hopes to have Matheus Cunha back in a Wolves shirt after March’s international break.

www.expressandstar.com

GON hoping to have Cunha back right after the March International break.

 

[glorybox]

I see BSK has not joined in this discussion but I bet you he's seen and remembers 100 better players than Cunha going back to the Billy Wright era. Even before BW we had the likes of Stan Cullis, Johnny Hancocks, Jimmy Mullen, Roy Pritchard, Jesse Pye and Dennis Westcott off the top of my head.

I bet you he bloody well can’t..!

 

[Streathamwolf]

Barry Douglas and Billy Kellock ????

Douglas yes. So many others, not sure about Kellock.

 

[Mancwolf56]

You could take the word from some of us on here who were lucky enough to have seen Wolves since the 60s/70s? Believe me Cunha, as good as he is, doesn't hold a candle to many of those players and some from the era before me, like Billy Wright and Stan Cullis.

Like many on here I was basically bought up on the 70’s Wolves and King John is still my favourite player albeit Peter Knowles was a more talented player, however to say Cunha ‘doesn’t hold a candle’ to many if them is arrant nonsense

 

[QB Wolf]

I started watching Wolves in 88, my early footballing heroes, Dennison, Downing, Cook, Nigel Vaughan, Andy Mutch and many others, loved them all. We now have a bloke playing with 11 Caps for Brazil, very early on his career.

I also love reading about the giants of the 50s and the greats of the 70s, and saw Nuno’s wonderful crop.

Cunha has to be up there I think as one of the best we’ve had in terms of skill and ability, and it’s been so enjoyable this season, he’s flourishing under GON and is making an impact now, but in terms of overall impact, probably not at stand naming level yet, but who cares just enjoy watching him.

 

[WickedWolfie]

You could take the word from some of us on here who were lucky enough to have seen Wolves since the 60s/70s? Believe me Cunha, as good as he is, doesn't hold a candle to many of those players and some from the era before me, like Billy Wright and Stan Cullis.

I've criticised some for presentism. This, albeit in the opposite direction, is equally as ridiculous.

Older people tend to believe that everything in their youth was better. However objectively that isn't always true. So no l won't take your word, particularly as while l am slightly younger than you l believe, l certainly do remember the 60/70s.

 

[Frank Lincoln]

The 70s was an interesting period for caps as there were a plethora of players capped from a range of different clubs, not necessarily in the top division. By the end of the decade there was a majority of Liverpool but earlier you had QPR players (Gerry Francis was England captain), Derby, Man City, West Ham, Southampton (in division 2), Sheffield Utd, as well as Arsenal, Chelsea, Everton, Liverpool, Albion, Man Utd. It was really a mixture

Back in the mid 70‘s, Queens Park Rangers had a very good team. If I remember correctly, they pushed Liverpool all the way, just being pipped into second place.Apart from Gerry Francis they had the likes of Dave Thomas, Don Givens and the mercurial Stan Bowles. That with the experience of John Hollins, plus I think Frank McLintock, that QPR side was a match for anyone.