Everton, surely a points deduction?

[Bawtry Wolf]

We seem to be the only team to take action to ensure that our books were in order

I think there must have been an assumption that Everton would have a slap on the wrist and it would prove that FFP was a farce. Instead they had the book thrown at them and it was too late for clubs to do anything other than create the world’s most pathetic excuses.

Wolves on the other hand decided to err on the side of caution, possibly driven by Fosun’s overall position but it looks like it’s been justified. I think this is where Fosun treating Wolves as a business rather than a plaything means we didn’t chase glory by keep chucking money at it. It was annoying in the summer and we all probably questioned Fosun’s commitment (although Guo’s reaction on Saturday appeared to be someone quite committed) but they seem to have read the runes well and been proven right. Time will tell

 

[brianm]

I think there must have been an assumption that Everton would have a slap on the wrist and it would prove that FFP was a farce. Instead they had the book thrown at them and it was too late for clubs to do anything other than create the world’s most pathetic excuses.

Wolves on the other hand decided to err on the side of caution, possibly driven by Fosun’s overall position but it looks like it’s been justified. I think this is where Fosun treating Wolves as a business rather than a plaything means we didn’t chase glory by keep chucking money at it. It was annoying in the summer and we all probably questioned Fosun’s commitment (although Guo’s reaction on Saturday appeared to be someone quite committed) but they seem to have read the runes well and been proven right. Time will tell

We will see this summer. that will be the first window not on the balance sheet with thr biggest spending year....should be more flexibility.

I'm sure they are more or less doing cartwheels at the moment seeing how this season is going vs the worst fears this past summer.

 

[topcat99]

I like the potential scenario in this:
I get to see Nuno enjoy the succes of making Forest win games again, while they still get relegated due to a points deduction..

With Everton joining them.

And Luton and Sheffield staying up on 25 points, ready to occupy the bottom 3 next season.

 

[DanishWolf]

With Everton joining them.

And Luton and Sheffield staying up on 25 points, ready to occupy the bottom 3 next season.

Perfect scenario if you ask me..

 

[arctic rime]

Forest & Everton are cheats

 

[hollo]

Forest sell brennan Johnson and then still spend 70 million.

 

[WWFC4EVA]

Forest sell brennan Johnson and then still spend 70 million.

The justification will be that the incoming goes straight on the books, the outgoings will be spread across the length of the contracts.

 

[WW1963]

Wonder if Nuno knew about this before agreeing to join them? Him and his entourage managing Forest must be costing close to Portugal's GDP.

I bet Lopetegui had the figures down to the nearest penny.

 

[North West Wanderer]

I first visited Liverpool for work in 2002 and that whole Albert Dock area was an oasis in what was basically a ****hole. What it has become is staggering, from derelict to actually really impressive. However where Everton are building is a ****hole, it’s the old dock road that looks like the land that time forgot in about 1950.

yep. i left in 2009 and seldom go into the city but it is amazing now. and yep titanic hotel aside its terrible.

 

[rincewind]

Still seems some Everton fans think we will be in trouble. Obviously missed the summer fire sale.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Still seems some Everton fans think we will be in trouble. Obviously missed the summer fire sale.

Same again though, not on the 22/23 accounts. Although that's why we delayed the payments on Cunha and Bouba, so hopefully OK.

 

[WW1963]

It won't be their fault though....

... Semedo's fault, obviously.

 

[Pseudonym]

Where are all those people claiming that FOSUN were using FFP as a pure smokescreen?

Those asserting with so much surety that FFP wasn’t something to be concerned with.

Come out come out wherever you are

Seems fairly clear now FOSUN among others began to catch wind that change was afoot and to get their houses in order

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Where are all those people claiming that FOSUN were using FFP as a pure smokescreen?

Those asserting with so much surety that FFP wasn’t something to be concerned with.

Come out come out wherever you are

Seems fairly clear now FOSUN among others began to catch wind that change was afoot and to get their houses in order

Clubs have been warned to comply and thankfully we have.

We are not close to breaching like everton make out….

 

[Bondi Wolf]

I think there must have been an assumption that Everton would have a slap on the wrist and it would prove that FFP was a farce. Instead they had the book thrown at them and it was too late for clubs to do anything other than create the world’s most pathetic excuses.

Wolves on the other hand decided to err on the side of caution, possibly driven by Fosun’s overall position but it looks like it’s been justified. I think this is where Fosun treating Wolves as a business rather than a plaything means we didn’t chase glory by keep chucking money at it.

Good points. This is the benefit of being owned by a publicly listed company. Corporate governance is about driving performance while taking account of risk. Through a risk management lens, breaching rules would have been too high a risk for a major corporation to take.

All of the privately owned clubs are run at the pleasure of their owners, and have nobody else to be accountable to.

 

[Wolf in Kenilworth]

I like the potential scenario in this:
I get to see Nuno enjoy the succes of making Forest win games again, while they still get relegated due to a points deduction..

If Forest are punished this season it’s laughable when Man City verdict won’t be until the end of next year.

 

[kidder_wolf_II]

If Forest are punished this season it’s laughable when Man City verdict won’t be until the end of next year.

Not really.laughable at all

Forest Everton ect are all given ffp rules to follow. If they fail it’s black and white.

Man City is a lot more complex and the PL have to build a water tight cases against the things they are being accused off. Would you rather they rush the investigation which could allow Man City to walk away scott free? Alternatively Man City have been charged with 110 charges. They have the right to defend each one.

 

[Cousins78]

Forest played championship manager with unlimited funds and lost

 

[Monswolf]

so just that I am clear forest's apparent defence is that they did not sell a player in the time scales for this FFP period because they would not have got full value for him but sold him after the reporting time but it should be allowed to be put in the previous period because it would then mean that they did not breach FFP. If so then that's lunacy each and every club could go on a spending spree then 2 3 or more years later sell players and ask for that value to be added to a previous periods FFP

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Not really.laughable at all

Forest Everton ect are all given ffp rules to follow. If they fail it’s black and white.

Man City is a lot more complex and the PL have to build a water tight cases against the things they are being accused off. Would you rather they rush the investigation which could allow Man City to walk away scott free? Alternatively Man City have been charged with 110 charges. They have the right to defend each one.

Not sure why they can't sort out the ones that would actually result in a points deduction though. I'm really struggling to imagine that anything dodgy from 10 years ago is going to result in more than a fine. Nobody could accuse them of rushing for sure, just feels like if you've got enough money you can stall it indefinitely.

 

[WKFWolf]

Where are all those people claiming that FOSUN were using FFP as a pure smokescreen?

Those asserting with so much surety that FFP wasn’t something to be concerned with.

Come out come out wherever you are

Seems fairly clear now FOSUN among others began to catch wind that change was afoot and to get their houses in order

as with many other things on here and Twitter etc - theyll no doubt be completely mute on the topic now...

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

as with many other things on here and Twitter etc - theyll no doubt be completely mute on the topic now...

Well I said at the time that (IIRC) that the situation was unclear, and you know what it's still unclear, and you know what, it'll never be clear unless we have broken the rules. You can add up the accounting losses, which is what people did when they thought Everton had broken the rules by £300m or whatever, but none of us will ever know how close we were unless we get charged. The key thing to remember is that if we don't get charged this season, then it won't have anything to do with what happened last summer. Fosun's willingness to continue to lose £35m a season is still entirely unknown.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

so just that I am clear forest's apparent defence is that they did not sell a player in the time scales for this FFP period because they would not have got full value for him but sold him after the reporting time but it should be allowed to be put in the previous period because it would then mean that they did not breach FFP. If so then that's lunacy each and every club could go on a spending spree then 2 3 or more years later sell players and ask for that value to be added to a previous periods FFP

Yep, that’s about the short and long of it.

It appears Forest may argue that they had received offers for Johnson early summer (before the reporting period closed) that had they accepted, would have made them compliant, and will argue this combined with a higher sale later, is grounds for waiving or moderating any punishment. For me, that shouldn’t help them, and it could be argued it should result in a tougher penalty as they knowingly breached the limit by deciding to wait for a higher offer after the window closed. As I said before, imagine trying to make this kind of argument with HMRC? My wife lost an entire year’s state pension contribution because our daughter was born one day late, and no they were not willing to flex by even a day, even though our daughter was almost two weeks past her due date.

 

[Northampton_wolf]

Forest are in trouble as per the rulings on everton, loss of money on players because of factors is not a mitigating factor.

They knew full well they would breach and have just ignored, they are in trouble. Just like everton were

Hence why we have took such a stalwart approach and not purchased players over the odds, the nunes sale is a big life saver for us

 

[WWFC4EVA]

as with many other things on here and Twitter etc - theyll no doubt be completely mute on the topic now...

I was critical of Fosun and I also had my doubts, I still do.
At present they appear to have played an absolute blinder though, but only time will tell, and the more cautious amongst us will likely wish to see what the future brings, before heaping praise on them.

 

[Northampton_wolf]

I was critical of Fosun and I also had my doubts, I still do.
At present they appear to have played an absolute blinder though, but only time will tell, and the more cautious amongst us will likely wish to see what the future brings, before heaping praise on them.

I think if we get the big spend in the next summer window then we can see the impact was true

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Where are all those people claiming that FOSUN were using FFP as a pure smokescreen?

Those asserting with so much surety that FFP wasn’t something to be concerned with.

Come out come out wherever you are

Seems fairly clear now FOSUN among others began to catch wind that change was afoot and to get their houses in order

I’m still here, and I still think it was used partly as a smokescreen. I’m not saying we didn’t need to sell before the reporting period closed, that much was clear by our splurge in January. But the club changed their public line (Hobbs directly and through trusted journalists) multiple times between JL’s arrival, and his departure, when they would have known in great detail the state of their finances relative to FFP. The only thing which came to light later, which I will give them credit for, is the meeting with the PL late last season where it’s reported we and other clubs were warned of a risk of breach and consequences. So yes we needed to sell Neves before the end of June, but that doesn’t explain the continued sales after the reporting window closed with no purchases until the unexpected sale of Nunez late in the window.

So far it’s all worked out well, but I’m not going to give Fosun a pat on the back until I see how this season finishes, and what our business is like next summer.

 

[Urko]

FOSUN are just rectifying a problem they created themselves overpaying the odds for duds like Guedes. Not sure how this makes Shi a genius.

 

[wolfgar]

Not sure why they can't sort out the ones that would actually result in a points deduction though. I'm really struggling to imagine that anything dodgy from 10 years ago is going to result in more than a fine. Nobody could accuse them of rushing for sure, just feels like if you've got enough money you can stall it indefinitely.

Saw an Everton fan suggest that they'd been forced to sell Richarlison for less then they wanted when in the exact same position last year because of the deadline, in which case accepting Forests argument here would open another can of worms. Seems unlikely its going to fly?

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Saw an Everton fan suggest that they'd been forced to sell Richarlison for less then they wanted when in the exact same position last year because of the deadline, in which case accepting Forests argument here would open another can of worms. Seems unlikely its going to fly?

If I remember it right, part of their defence was that covid killed the transfer market so that they couldn't sell Richarlison when they wanted to and avoid FFP. It's just an impossible argument though, no way will the league accept it.

The one I'm not clear about is the allowed losses in the Champ, is that a new rule?

 

[Northampton_wolf]

If I remember it right, part of their defence was that covid killed the transfer market so that they couldn't sell Richarlison when they wanted to and avoid FFP. It's just an impossible argument though, no way will the league accept it.

The one I'm not clear about is the allowed losses in the Champ, is that a new rule?

Can make up to 13m a season loss in champ, which forest seem to be under, its on the promotion they seem to be in trouble for this coming year.

23/24

Basically you can offest some promotion expenses but looks highlly unlikely they get under 61m

 

[wolfgar]

If I remember it right, part of their defence was that covid killed the transfer market so that they couldn't sell Richarlison when they wanted to and avoid FFP. It's just an impossible argument though, no way will the league accept it.

The one I'm not clear about is the allowed losses in the Champ, is that a new rule?

Seems like Forest and Everton are both trying to get out of FFP by explaining to the league that the dog ate their homework

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Can make up to 13m a season loss in champ, which forest seem to be under, its on the promotion they seem to be in trouble for this coming year.

23/24

Basically you can offest some promotion expenses but looks highlly unlikely they get under 61m

Seen this, but never noticed it before, I always thought that if you really wanted to, you could lose £105m in the first year if you really wanted to, as the previous seasons didn't count since effectively you're in a different league rather than just division (EPL not EFL).

Also surely all this is about 22/23, by the time they have to worry about 23/24 their losses can be £86m? Although then there are the wages/turnover rules which I'm going to need another night school course to get my head round!

 

[lycophilos]

FOSUN are just rectifying a problem they created themselves overpaying the odds for duds like Guedes. Not sure how this makes Shi a genius.

I haven't seen many posts (in fact I personally haven't seen any) which claim that Shi is a genius. On the other hand, there were certainly quite a number of posts claiming that Shi/FOSUN were using FFP as an excuse for not buying more top players. Often with the insinuation that Wolves were being used by FOSUN merely as a moneymaking exercise.

 

[Northampton_wolf]

Seen this, but never noticed it before, I always thought that if you really wanted to, you could lose £105m in the first year if you really wanted to, as the previous seasons didn't count since effectively you're in a different league rather than just division (EPL not EFL).

Also surely all this is about 22/23, by the time they have to worry about 23/24 their losses can be £86m? Although then there are the wages/turnover rules which I'm going to need another night school course to get my head round!

yes your right about it being 22/23 but obviously its the calculation across those 3 years.

being calculated before the 23/24 season was what i think i was trying to get across

Always working in 1 years arears

 

[Northampton_wolf]

United will struggle with FFP come next season

3.5m loan fee after that outlay..

https://x.com/Plettigoal/status/1742495864705122602?s=20

 

[lets all have a disco]

Seems like Forest and Everton are both trying to get out of FFP by explaining to the league that the dog ate their homework

Sounds like Harry Redknapps dog was the accountant....

 

[Bawtry Wolf]

If I remember it right, part of their defence was that covid killed the transfer market so that they couldn't sell Richarlison when they wanted to and avoid FFP. It's just an impossible argument though, no way will the league accept it.

We sold Jota and Doherty bought Silva,Semedo and Hoever during COVID to name some transactions so it wasn’t entirely dead. Admittedly we didn’t sell Adama or Raul. So I’m not sure that argument stands up in anyone’s world.

You need very generous creditors to say I’ve got the money now to make good on the deadline you set but if you wouldn’t mind waiting a bit I can give that same amount to you in the future but will have made a bit more for myself.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I haven't seen many posts (in fact I personally haven't seen any) which claim that Shi is a genius. On the other hand, there were certainly quite a number of posts claiming that Shi/FOSUN were using FFP as an excuse for not buying more top players. Often with the insinuation that Wolves were being used by FOSUN merely as a moneymaking exercise.

I mean my memory is that he said Fosun had put enough money in and the club had to stand on it's own feet, so it wasn't exactly a stretch to claim they didn't want to keep losing the maximum allowed. Although of course what Shi tells us and the truth aren't necessarily the same thing.

 

[topcat99]

I don’t fully understand the rules here, but if Forest are squealing and trying to bring Johnson into the equation, you can bet that they are falling foul of FFP