Premier League, Newcastle and free speech

[WickedWolfie]

Banned Newcastle United fan raises £15,000 to sue - BBC News

Linzi Smith's lawyer says the club's actions are a "huge overreach" in to her personal life.

www.bbc.co.uk

Whatever your take on the lady's views this represents massive, disproportionate, and very possibly illegal, overreach by the PL and Newcastle. That is all the more ironic given the "tolerant liberal" nature of the owners of the latter!

I hope that she wins her legal battle and it costs both club and league dearly.

 

[Lobo de Ouro]

Ridiculous ban, but I have no time for someone criticising a "huge overreach into people's personal lives" when they've been making comments that are a huge overreach into people's personal lives.

 

[maws]

More erosion of free speech, people not being worried should be. The police investigated it and no charges so she’s obviously broken no laws. Football clubs want sanitised stadia, they must hate the swearing in songs, give them 20 years they’ll try stop it. People are too easily blinded by hi viz and emails telling them to do things! Anyone who thinks that authorities have your best interests at heart, they don’t

 

[Darvo]

This doesn’t feel right at all.

 

[Mutchy]

The thread, to be in this section, is purely about the right of a football club to involve itself in such matters - not the matters themselves.
Please keep this in mind when posting.

 

[WickedWolfie]

The thread, to be in this section, is purely about the right of a football club to involve itself in such matters - not the matters themselves.
Please keep this in mind when posting.

Wholeheartedly agreed, hence the start of my first sentence, albeit l would add "and the Premier League" after football club in your first sentence - very definitely still football related.

 

[JadeWolf]

This doesn’t feel right at all.

I agree. I haven’t read her comments so can’t say anything about her views but if she hasn’t affected the football club I’m not sure they should be going to the level they have.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I would have no problem with her being banned if she'd broken the law, regardless of whether it is in the ground. Since Northumbria Police appear to think not though, I think it is an over reach. Irony of it being the Saudi arm of the PL of course ....

 

[Netherton Wolf]

The world really has gone mad, if they looked into many peoples posts on social media the grounds would be half empty,

 

[maws]

I would have no problem with her being banned if she'd broken the law, regardless of whether it is in the ground. Since Northumbria Police appear to think not though, I think it is an over reach. Irony of it being the Saudi arm of the PL of course ....

So people who got done for any offence can be banned? I’m shocked you think like this! We pay to attend football matches so as long as it’s away from football? A driver banned from driving has a criminal history are you banning them!!

 

[Eastyorksyeltz]

I would have no problem with her being banned if she'd broken the law, regardless of whether it is in the ground. Since Northumbria Police appear to think not though, I think it is an over reach. Irony of it being the Saudi arm of the PL of course ....

But to follow this line to its logical conclusion you would ban anyone who has broken any law anywhere from a football stadium? Surely if the offence is unrelated to football it's nothing to do with a football club, or the Premier League?

 

[rincewind]

What is happening to the world? Her views on gender, which have been deemed not hate speech so are presumably in the rwalms of normal discussion, have nothing to do with Newcastle or football? What's next, barred dor voting Conservative (if anyone does this year) or for being pro or anti Israel? I hope she wins her case and rather ironically gets a big payout from the Saudis.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

So people who got done for any offence can be banned? I’m shocked you think like this! We pay to attend football matches so as long as it’s away from football? A driver banned from driving has a criminal history are you banning them!!

But to follow this line to its logical conclusion you would ban anyone who has broken any law anywhere from a football stadium? Surely if the offence is unrelated to football it's nothing to do with a football club, or the Premier League?

No, not any crime. Crimes related to victimising people.

 

[maws]

No, not any crime. Crimes related to victimising people.

So then that’s discrimination in itself! Are you saying you’d let on a hit and run driver but not someone who’s posted transphobic views?

You’d let in Leslie Grantham but not JK Rowling?? This is what you’re saying! I think in all my years reading your posts this is the one I really take exception too. I don’t think you have thought it through. It’s a basket case of a rule to impose, anything away from football should NOT be imposed on football season tickets. If the crimes that bad the person will be in Nick anyway. You’re doing double jeopardy, I am shocked mate, this is such a right wing view you’re taking

 

[WickedWolfie]

But to follow this line to its logical conclusion you would ban anyone who has broken any law anywhere from a football stadium? Surely if the offence is unrelated to football it's nothing to do with a football club, or the Premier League?

In general l would agree. Possible exceptions might be offences involving racism and/or violence.

 

[Eastyorksyeltz]

No, not any crime. Crimes related to victimising people.

So who decides the specific category of crimes that you carry over into all areas of life and those that you just apply the statutory penalty to?

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

So then that’s discrimination in itself! Are you saying you’d let on a hit and run driver but not someone who’s posted transphobic views?

You’d let in Leslie Grantham but not JK Rowling?? This is what you’re saying! I think in all my years reading your posts this is the one I really take exception too. I don’t think you have thought it through. It’s a basket case of a rule to impose, anything away from football should NOT be imposed on football season tickets. If the crimes that bad the person will be in Nick anyway. You’re doing double jeopardy, I am shocked mate, this is such a right wing view you’re taking

Has JK Rowling been convicted of any crime? I'm going out, so I'll consider my views and get back to you later! Can I bad Stephen Yaxley-Lennon?

 

[maws]

Has JK Rowling been convicted of any crime? I'm going out, so I'll consider my views and get back to you later! Can I bad Stephen Yaxley-Lennon?

He’s definitely been convicted!!

 

[Darvo]

If the police have ruled that her social media post does not break the law and represent a hate crime then I fail to see how this falls into the jurisdiction of NUFC or The Premier League? Who the hell do they think they are? I hope she wins her case.

 

[WorcesterWanderer]

The world really has gone mad, if they looked into many peoples posts on social media the grounds would be half empty,

If they could see my mates' footy group chat after any of the losses where VAR has ****ed us, I'm pretty sure I'd be strapped to a rocket and sent into the sun!

The PL and Newcastle have massively overstepped here, it feels almost creepy to be honest.

 

[WickedWolfie]

If the police have ruled that her social media post does not break the law and represent a hate crime then I fail to see how this falls into the jurisdiction of NUFC or The Premier League? Who the hell do they think they are? I hope she wins her case.

I'm highly conscious, given Mutchy's comment, that this thread is on danger of straying away from football.

To be specific the police appear to have found no/insufficient evidence of a crime. If they believed that they had they would put a case to the Crown Prosecution Service. Only if the latter firstly believed that a prosecution was in the public interest and secondly won that prosecution at a Court trial would it be definitely determined that a crime had been committed and that crime met the legal definition of a hate crime.

If a conviction was deemed to be something which a football club could punish all of those steps must be passed to permit that.

 

[Chisels_n_ommers]

If this was a stance taken by Newcastle it would be logical to think their owners supported the stance?!

Does this mean they would support such a stance and view point throughout their administrations in their own country and across the world?

 

[Eastyorksyeltz]

I'm highly conscious, given Mutchy's comment, that this thread is on danger of straying away from football.

To be specific the police appear to have found no/insufficient evidence of a crime. If they believed that they had they would put a case to the Crown Prosecution Service. Only if the latter firstly believed that a prosecution was in the public interest and secondly won that prosecution at a Court trial would it be definitely determined that a crime had been committed and that crime met the legal definition of a hate crime.

If a conviction was deemed to be something which a football club could punish all of those steps must be passed to permit that.

Agreed, but the real meat of the matter is in your last paragraph and an area that is well within Mutchy's guidelines I would think. Unless there is something related to football, or the statutory penalty actually includes some general social bann, why should it be, "something which a football club could punish."?

 

[thommo1984]

Find the comments saying ‘the police found she did nothing wrong so that should be it’ quite a strange reaction. If you act like a prat you’ll be barred from your local, if you shout racist comments at the cinema you’ll be chucked out. That’s how society works.

Her comments weren’t “gender critical” they were horrific and dangerous, whatever your view on the subject might be.

I’d hope we would also ban fans for happily spouting such xenophobic views into the public realm. Wolves is supposedly an open club for all, people like that can take their custom elsewhere.

 

[Eastyorksyeltz]

Find the comments saying ‘the police found she did nothing wrong so that should be it’ quite a strange reaction. If you act like a prat you’ll be barred from your local, if you shout racist comments at the cinema you’ll be chucked out. That’s how society works.

Her comments weren’t “gender critical” they were horrific and dangerous, whatever your view on the subject might be.

I’d hope we would also ban fans for happily spouting such xenophobic views into the public realm. Wolves is supposedly an open club for all, people like that can take their custom elsewhere.

If you act like like a prat "in your local" or shout racist comments "at the cinema" you could be banned from them, but that doesn't normally extend to a ban from your local football club as well. I haven't seen the full story here, but unless she made those comments on a football forum, or had some official representative role in the club, I can't see what it has to do with Newcastle United, or the Premier League, irrespective of what she said and what the legal action taken might be.

 

[jackdusty]

Has JK Rowling been convicted of any crime? I'm going out, so I'll consider my views and get back to you later! Can I bad Stephen Yaxley-Lennon?

You can bad him all you like, it's a free country after all !. Unless he has a football banning order against him he had every right to be at the game yesterday despite what we might think of him.

 

[maws]

Find the comments saying ‘the police found she did nothing wrong so that should be it’ quite a strange reaction. If you act like a prat you’ll be barred from your local, if you shout racist comments at the cinema you’ll be chucked out. That’s how society works.

Her comments weren’t “gender critical” they were horrific and dangerous, whatever your view on the subject might be.

I’d hope we would also ban fans for happily spouting such xenophobic views into the public realm. Wolves is supposedly an open club for all, people like that can take their custom elsewhere.

A football club should only have jurisdiction on its premises, this is going into deeper realms. Your views won’t be the same as all on here, some may find them abhorrent, it’s nothing to do with wolves fc as a club

 

[SA Wolf]

Orwell was right, afterall.

 

[maws]

Orwell was right, afterall.

He was Britain’s greatest ever writer imo, his views on authority are definitely worth a read

 

[WickedWolfie]

You can bad him all you like, it's a free country after all !. Unless he has a football banning order against him he had every right to be at the game yesterday despite what we might think of him.

This is where, particularly with respect to public figures, it gets problematic. Should, for the sake of argument, Wolves have been obliged to admit Rolf Harris (l was going to say Jimmy Saville but remembered that he'd never actually been convicted of anything), regardless of the likelihood of trouble arising as a result.

 

[WorcesterWanderer]

This is where, particularly with respect to public figures, it gets problematic. Should, for the sake of argument, Wolves have been obliged to admit Rolf Harris (l was going to say Jimmy Saville but remembered that he'd never actually been convicted of anything), regardless of the likelihood of trouble arising as a result.

Genuine question, are clubs allowed to deny someone entry on the grounds of thinking they could be harmed as a result? A well-known and perhaps controversial person, I mean.

 

[thommo1984]

A football club should only have jurisdiction on its premises, this is going into deeper realms. Your views won’t be the same as all on here, some may find them abhorrent, it’s nothing to do with wolves fc as a club

Some of the comments directly related to football and sports, fwiw.

Can see both sides of this, just can’t garner any sympathy for anyone who happily and willingly spouts horrific comments into the world, whether that’s against trans people, non-white people or other minorities.

Reap what you sow.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

She will win. But at what cost? This should never of happened. Disgusting from Newcastle

 

[maws]

Genuine question, are clubs allowed to deny someone entry on the grounds of thinking they could be harmed as a result? A well-known and perhaps controversial person, I mean.

Imagine Southampton banning Le God for his alternative views!

 

[WorcesterWanderer]

Imagine Southampton banning Le God for his alternative views!

It'd be like us banning Bully.

 

[MattH]

Ridiculous ban, but I have no time for someone criticising a "huge overreach into people's personal lives" when they've been making comments that are a huge overreach into people's personal lives.

Quite right.

 

[rincewind]

Ridiculous ban, but I have no time for someone criticising a "huge overreach into people's personal lives" when they've been making comments that are a huge overreach into people's personal lives.

See this is fine, if you dislike their views, it's not so good if it's views you support being 'cancelled'. I'm very wary of banning people from saying things because you don't like them, but someone like Putin isn't. It's a very difficult thing to police, if she's not advocating violence and I'd be against banning people from Wolves because I disagree with their views. There'd be no one on here either!

 

[Leemack]

Does this country want to be anymore woke than it already is. Pathetic from Newcastle

Used to be a country of the brave and strong, now it's a nation of can't say this and this offends me bla bla. Grow up ffs.

Over moderation of our lives (The club not this forum lol)

 

[jackdusty]

This is where, particularly with respect to public figures, it gets problematic. Should, for the sake of argument, Wolves have been obliged to admit Rolf Harris (l was going to say Jimmy Saville but remembered that he'd never actually been convicted of anything), regardless of the likelihood of trouble arising as a result.

I didn't know he was there until a saw a post on here earlier as i don't follow him on social media so i take it he wasn't demonstrating against something or recruiting for an organization that could of stopped entry. As a side note wonder how he got a ticket, is he a member of LFC if so they don't seem to have a problem with it but i doubt it somehow and he got it of a mate but with his high profile that was taking a risk wasn't it.

 

[WV10Wolf]

My mother always said if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all. If she followed that advice she’d still be welcome at St James’ park.

She can think and say what she likes, but nobody should be allowed to spout discriminatory things across social media. Freedom of speech doesn’t necessarily mean freedom of consequences as she’s now found out. Whilst the state/police might not care about what’s she’s done, NUFC and the PL do and have decided she’s no longer welcome.

I hope Wolves would do likewise. One pack and all that.