Should we be moving to a back five?

[Skrilla]

With the signing of Santiago Bueno, who appears clearly far more than just a backup centre back from his experience in La Liga, I am wondering if we’ll start playing with a back five again, especially against the top six (seven?) sides.

Conceding eight goals in four games isn’t a good look, and without Sa’s heroics against Everton and Palace, it could have been far more. It’s not sustainable long term to concede that number of goals, especially when we already struggle to create, and finish, clear cut chances at the other end of the pitch.

The makeup of our team I would argue also suits a back five. Our full backs are better positioned as wingbacks due to their attacking nature, our centre backs will be less exposed with the insurance of an extra defender, and counter attacking has always suited this group of players far more than trying to play high pressure, possession based football.

It doesn’t necessarily have to be viewed as a less attacking system either, with the insurance of the extra centre back it would release the shackles from our full backs, RAN/Bueno and Doc/Semedo have more freedom to get forward and support the front three. In essence we’d be swapping a front four for a front five, with the support of the wingbacks constantly getting forward.

Assuming Sasa is struggling to play 90 minutes and will continue to come off the bench for the foreseeable future, a starting XI in a 3-4-3 could look like this:

Neto/Hwang - Cunha/Silva - Bellegarde/Sarabia
RAN/Bueno - Gomes/Traore - Lemina/Doyle - Doherty/Semedo
Kilman/Toti - Dawson - Bueno
Sa/Bentley
​

Would fans prefer GON continues to try and make the 4-2-3-1 (or 4-4-2 as some prefer to call it) work, or should GON consider changing to a tried and trusted formation?

 

[Zico]

I agree, I think we would look better set up like that.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Yeah we should move to a back 5

Those goals we let in yesterday wouldn’t of happened

It gives us more shape and organisation. Frustrating bigger clubs also.

Most of the players know back 3/5 system more than a back 4 and it shows. By how bad our defending is at present

It’s time to be more defensive and counter attacking system. 3/4/3 or 3/5/2 like the good old days and get the best from our players again.

Our players already know how to play in 3/5 at the back, and it would help us especially defending which is needed. As we currently fold like a pack of cards.

The back 4 experiment is failed. Time to revert to what we know best and play to our own strengths

Doherty Bueno Dawson Kilman Toti
(huge physical defenders can bully opponents)

Semedo Kilman Bueno Toti RAN

Also back 5 gives us different options and adds much needed height to the team. Physicality is a big advantage in this league.

We have to play to our strengths I firmly believe this team would work

Sa
Doherty Bueno Dawson Kilman Toti
Lemina
Doyle Bellegarde
Neto
Sasa

 

[bigwolf]

My view is yes we need to look at a different system. We are going to concede far too many goals with GON in charge playing current system and as our shooting ability is similar to under 5s team we won't outscore teams.

In addition our inability to beat the press means we need extra bodies at the back.

You can feel the panic when Sa, Kilman and Dawson have the ball.

 

[steve vena]

Go 3-5-2 Doc on the right RAN on the left. Against all teams and see how we go.

 

[Halesowen wwfc]

I think its time. Makes the most out of aut nouri on the left and id bring doc in instead of semedo. We keep being caught short in our last line of defence which should bring some more threat higher up the pitch.

 

[SuperGran]

We’ve been **** as a back 4 for three years at least
Time to go 3/5 at the back depending on opponents

 

[AndyY]

Our squad is set up best to play a back 3/5. Its a simple as that.
Virtually all of our FBs are better off as wing backs.
Dawson is slow and has had a poor start to the season, and yet is also asked to cover Semedo as well.
Kilman has always played best in a 3/5 and that formation would allow him to bring the ball out of defence as well, which he is good at.
We are not getting the best out of Toti at the moment as a sub.

 

[Minimalist]

Yes!

Our players suit it still.

A hybrid 343/352 with Sarabia or Bellegarde in that right centre mid role but pushing up to make a third forward. Basically Donks old role.

From that shape you can still play high press possession football (if you wanted) , it doesn’t have to be sitting deep and counter attacking. Though for some games that would probably be the best tactic anyway.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I say this on every thread, and have been saying so since RJ's injury, until we get a proper no 9, who plays in the penalty area (and not all over the pitch looking for the ball) it doesn't matter what formation you play we will rarely outscore the opposition. Watching Wolves for the last 3 years has been painful, knowing that everything will break down when we get near the penalty area. Formations and tactics are wonderful but I bet if you said to John Richards or Bully we're going with a 5 at the back tonight they'd have said 'great but just get the ball to me in the penalty area'!

 

[StaffordWolf]

Whatever makes watching our games fun and exciting again. With the exception of a few games all the fun has been sucked out of watching us play for the past 3 years and it's looking like it will be 4 after this season.

The point of watching football is for entertainment at the end of the day, and we have been severely let down in that department for over 3 years now.

I'd be happy for us to go 5atb and sit in, but do we have players who can hit a team on the break? Whenever I've seen us break recently it gets to the final third then we wait for the opposition to get back in their shape before passing it around the back until we inevitably lose possession. I can't see how changing formation is going to fix that. Maybe we will get more clean sheets but I doubt it helps with our scoring woes and I doubt it makes us anymore entertaining to watch.

 

[TelfordWolf]

I think there’s definitely games to play it. I would avoid playing it every single week. Brentford tend to flex between 4 and 5 atb. Rotate Dawson in/out depending on the opposition and formation.

 

[oldgolded]

Absolutely 100% agree that we should revert to a back 5 and utilize our wing backs.
We don't have the players to play wonderful open attacking flair football, but I believe we can make ourselves hard to beat and unpleasant to play against again.
We are such a soft touch at the moment that I should think every team can't wait to play us.
The main target this season unfortunately is purely avoiding relegation as far as I'm concerned.
We need to make ourselves a well drilled mean machine that grinds the opposition down as we did under Nuno.
Whether O'Neill is able to implement this is another matter.

 

[Norway Wolves]

I think we can all see that we have no other choice.

If we must try to play out from the back it seems that we have one man less all the time. I wish we wouldn't do it because other teams must see us and know that it's a matter of time before we give away a free goal.. Could have been yesterday, lucky it wasn't.

We can't carry on conceding at this rate.

 

[Very Proud (AKA Still Proud)]

We should go back to a back five and employ a manager who has proven success with the formation!

 

[Ercall Wolves]

Yes

 

[Cookyssweetleftfoot]

The many clean sheets at home in the second half of last season ( including against Liverpool , Spurs and Chelsea) were all with a back 4.
The goals yesterday would still have been conceded too I think as we had enough bodies to deal with all 3.
No issues with changing formations to suit the game, but really don’t get the need for it the majority of the time when we play with 2 DMs.

 

[Aimless Balls]

How would we get the ball up the pitch.

 

[Bradstonian]

How would we get the ball up the pitch.

Kick it - hard.

 

[goldfish]

If played correctly, I think the back five could allow us to be more aggressive. England women are a good analogy here, with Kilman in the Millie Bright role: stepping in to win the ball back high up the pitch, with license to bring it out of defence. Then two covering defenders in case he's caught out of position (as happens in a back four). The weakness then is in behind the full-backs, so Gomes and Lemina will have to cover.

I'd like Neto to start though, and I think we'd be vulnerable with just RAN or Bueno down the left. So I'd go asymmetrical, with a left back and left winger, and a right wing back.

Something like this:

-----------------------Sa-----------------
-----D'son--K'man*--S.Buen--H.Buen/RAN
Doc/Sem‐---------------------------------
---------Lemina----Gomes-----------Neto

*With license to push up

Of course you could invert Neto and drop the right-wing back to full-back.

And then whoever preferred up top (I'd like to see Bellegarde/Sarabia in the 10 behind Kalajdzic, but that's for another thread).

 

[Norway Wolves]

A back 5 also allows Doc to play, and he could make a massive difference to us.

 

[Contrarian]

Whatever makes watching our games fun and exciting again.

Winning !!! That is all. Just winning. For about 98% of us, anyway. The other 2% just haven't realised it yet. They will, if ever we regularly lose games with 5 goals in them.

Who felt better after losing a 5 goal, open game, then winning a scrappy, low quality 1-0 at Everton? Not me, for sure.

 

[Aimless Balls]

Kick it - hard.

That’s just it- we don’t have anyone who could hit a WB with a longish ball, let alone go over the top(assuming someone wanted to make themself available). Don’t have Coady and Neves hoofing lasers anymore. They say Santi can do it, do we put it all on him?

 

[StaffordWolf]

Winning !!! That is all. Just winning. For about 98% of us, anyway. The other 2% just haven't realised it yet. They will, if ever we regularly lose games with 5 goals in them.

All them 1-0 wins we got towards the back end of last season were still **** to watch.

 

[Contrarian]

All them 1-0 wins we got towards the back end of last season were still **** to watch.

Depends on whether you'd rather be watching the Championship this season. Which is where we'd be if we didn't get those 1-0 wins. Opinions differ. But most think the Championship tends to be a more painful watch than the Premier League.

 

[SA Wolf]

Under Nuno, we played 3/5 at the back. It was part of our DNA and we were both exciting and conceded few goals. Don't think we ever conceded more than 3 under Nuno and certainly not the 4s, 5s and 6 we've seen under various managers who have tried to convert us to a free-scoring side with a back 4.
We were told by some on 'ere that 4 at the back was the future and that we would score more and be more entertaining. How did that go!
3/5 at the back doesn't have to be negative as the WBs support the attack as required and give us more bodies in the box. Of course it relies on players with energy and while I can see that on the left, I'm not so sure that a 3 years older Doc or indeed Semedo are the answer on the other side. Semedo's default is to look back and take the safe option.
I'm not sure whether Bueno S has played in a back 3 or even Dawson for that matter, but if they are comfortable with it; I'd certainly give it a go. Of course, historically our back 3/5 success came with Coady in the side. Ironically, there seems support to revert back to this formation, having jettisoned Coady because he 'can't' play in a four.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

Ask in 4 or 5 games or so. It's way too early to say things aren't working when results are kind of how you would expect them to go anyway.

 

[SA Wolf]

Ask in 4 or 5 games or so. It's way too early to say things aren't working when results are kind of how you would expect them to go anyway.

It's not just the results, though. It's the performances in those games. We've conceded sloppy goals against Brighton and Palace, goals that a back 3/5 MAY have prevented. Additionally, our attack needs the support of attacking wing-backs. I hope that GON is working on just this through the international window.

 

[StaffordWolf]

Depends on whether you'd rather be watching the Championship this season. Which is where we'd be if we didn't get those 1-0 wins. Opinions differ. But most think the Championship tends to be a more painful watch than the Premier League.

Winning games and being exciting doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, we could do both. Brentford manage it with an arguably worse squad.

 

[SuperGran]

Under Nuno, we played 3/5 at the back. It was part of our DNA and we were both exciting and conceded few goals. Don't think we ever conceded more than 3 under Nuno and certainly not the 4s, 5s and 6 we've seen under various managers who have tried to convert us to a free-scoring side with a back 4.
We were told by some on 'ere that 4 at the back was the future and that we would score more and be more entertaining. How did that go!
3/5 at the back doesn't have to be negative as the WBs support the attack as required and give us more bodies in the box. Of course it relies on players with energy and while I can see that on the left, I'm not so sure that a 3 years older Doc or indeed Semedo are the answer on the other side. Semedo's default is to look back and take the safe option.
I'm not sure whether Bueno S has played in a back 3 or even Dawson for that matter, but if they are comfortable with it; I'd certainly give it a go. Of course, historically our back 3/5 success came with Coady in the side. Ironically, there seems support to revert back to this formation, having jettisoned Coady because he 'can't' play in a four.

Burnley 4-0

 

[Contrarian]

Winning games and being exciting doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, we could do both. Brentford manage it with an arguably worse squad.

Yes, fair point. Key difference between us and Brentford (and Villa, maybe too, also Fulham with Mitrovic) is they all have out and out proven goal scorers at this level. A focal point you can just hoik the ball in their vague direction and they will do the business for you.

And they all appear to have top level, experienced managers, too. And they keep them. Which probably compensates for most of their squads being, as you say, comparable to ours.

 

[Ned]

I think anything is worth a try right now.

 

[SA Wolf]

Burnley 4-0

OK, once. I give you Brighton 4 and 6, Arsenal 5, Man City 5, Leeds 4, Leicester 4. There are probably others that I can't remember.

 

[SuperGran]

OK, once. I give you Brighton 4 and 6, Arsenal 5, Man City 5, Leeds 4, Leicester 4,

Agree defence has been crap since nuno

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

OK, once. I give you Brighton 4 and 6, Arsenal 5, Man City 5, Leeds 4, Leicester 4,

West ham put 4 past us as well. Think there was another tanking too.
You could argue we only started getting tanked after we signed Semedo.

 

[CelebrityWolf]

Yeah we should move to a back 5

Those goals we let in yesterday wouldn’t of happened

It gives us more shape and organisation. Frustrating bigger clubs also.

Most of the players know back 3/5 system more than a back 4 and it shows. By how bad our defending is at present

It’s time to be more defensive and counter attacking system. 3/4/3 or 3/5/2 like the good old days and get the best from our players again.

Our players already know how to play in 3/5 at the back, and it would help us especially defending which is needed. As we currently fold like a pack of cards.

The back 4 experiment is failed. Time to revert to what we know best and play to our own strengths

Doherty Bueno Dawson Kilman Toti
(huge physical defenders can bully opponents)

Semedo Kilman Bueno Toti RAN

Also back 5 gives us different options and adds much needed height to the team. Physicality is a big advantage in this league.

We have to play to our strengths I firmly believe this team would work

Sa
Doherty Bueno Dawson Kilman Toti
Lemina
Doyle Bellegarde
Neto
Sasa

Why on earth would you go to a back five and then play Toti as a wing back. That would be ridiculous.

A back five is fine by me but it absolutely has to have Doc and RAN if we want to carry any hint of forward play as the onus is on wing backs in this system.

 

[CelebrityWolf]

West ham put 4 past us as well. Think there was another tanking too.
You could argue we only started getting tanked after we signed Semedo.

Semedo shouldn't play for the club again. He may actually be more spineless than Julen.

 

[StaffordWolf]

Yes, fair point. Key difference between us and Brentford (and Villa, maybe too, also Fulham with Mitrovic) is they all have out and out proven goal scorers at this level. A focal point you can just hoik the ball in their vague direction and they will do the business for you.

And they all appear to have top level, experienced managers, too. And they keep them. Which probably compensates for most of their squads being, as you say, comparable to ours.

I've been really impressed with how Brentford have lost Toney but it does not seem to have phased them all that much.

Fulham remains to be seen with how they'll cope without Mitrovic, however they've got off to a better start than we have with a similar fixture difficulty, probably slightly harder to be honest.

We may just be in a transition period due to loss of players and a new manager with different ideas, however I am not confident that making more changes (i.e. to a back 5) at this moment will make much of a difference.

I just want to be entertained and for a change I'm actually looking forward to the international break.

 

[Will Wolf]

Yes with S Bueno and Doc included

Could we have a poll?

 

[MickHolmesFanClub]

The players we have at our disposal would look to suit a back 3/5 better than a back 4 - certainly in the full-back areas. Doc and Jonny have already shown that with us in the past and it should also suit RAN, Semedo and Bueno more.
Having signed Santi Bueno, we, also, now have 4 centre back at our disposal so the option is now there to play 3 and have 1 on the bench.

I wouldn't say we should play a 5 in every game but, certainly, against the 'bigger' clubs with strong forwards (Liverpool, Man City, Spurs etc) it's probably the best approach.
I know it was only Blackpool but we played the system last week to good effect and players like RAN and Doc were able to get forward to help the attack.