Don Corleone
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He, not she…Well on the last few games she shouldn’t be, we’re a mess.
He, not she…Well on the last few games she shouldn’t be, we’re a mess.
So we have a manager who hasn't got the personality or ability to get a squad to play the way he wants?Weren't we saying the same things last year though?
I'm not trying to be argumentative but I can't understand why you're suggesting sacking a manager when you say you think he knows what the problems are and that he has a plan to fix it.
Bruno essentially got three new players. Trincao, Hwang and Chiquinho. Chiquinho ended up as the direct replacement for Adama. Hwang started well, then got injured and hasn't been good since and Trincao offered glimpses but nothing really substantial.
Apart from that it's entirely Nuno's squad. It's definitely not Bruno's preferred squad architecture.
Why are people who use this argument forgetting the drubbing we gave Forest and a good performance against Watford?More like the players just couldn't play that way. You need to be super fit and fast. Maybe why players got hamstring problems this season too.
Nuno had huge credit in the bank and we had the background of covid, was sacked on the basis of wanting more attractive football, ended up with worse football with Bruno.
Because Forest were **** at the time, and Watford ditto. We've played it in spells, but to do it you need fast defenders and midfielders. We have Neto who still isn't fit, and Chiquinho who is probably the fastest player. Most of the squad are not fast, or fit enough to run like you need to in the style Lage wants to play. There is also no goal scorers.Why are people who use this argument forgetting the drubbing we gave Forest and a good performance against Watford?
Last few games? Read a third of the season....
Tangent, but remember when anyone who said Batth, Bright, and so on wasn't good enough was attacked and slated? If you didn't think Bright was the next Messi, you were an awful negative person who wanted players to fail.
And yet look where all these players went.
Hell, there were still people claiming that Batth, a player whose severe limitations were obvious during promotion season was a decent PL defender as a backup! Now he's Sunderland in League One and can barely get a game.
I guess it's because I see there being a range of different skillsets required to be a football manager including playing the market, coaching, leadership, media handling, man management etc etc.Weren't we saying the same things last year though?
I'm not trying to be argumentative but I can't understand why you're suggesting sacking a manager when you say you think he knows what the problems are and that he has a plan to fix it.
Bruno essentially got three new players. Trincao, Hwang and Chiquinho. Chiquinho ended up as the direct replacement for Adama. Hwang started well, then got injured and hasn't been good since and Trincao offered glimpses but nothing really substantial.
Apart from that it's entirely Nuno's squad. It's definitely not Bruno's preferred squad architecture.
Thing ithat gets ne about those 3 games is that we lost to a didgy oen against spurs, a goal that shouldn't have been against united, and a well tajen goal from Vardy. They were creating chances and were hardly leaking goals all over. Then it just seemed to get abandoned, never to be returned to.Could be miles off, but do wonder whether it was his call to abandon the attacking philosophy of opening 3 games? Fearful of relegation, maybe the powers-that-be had a word.
Two sides to every coin of course but you could argue he realised that the players just didn't have the right attributes to successfully play the way he wants and took the pragmatic route to give himself the best chance of getting results.So we have a manager who hasn't got the personality or ability to get a squad to play the way he wants?
Again, no case to keep him, ideally he's already gone by the time Monday comes around.
So we have a manager who hasn't got the personality or ability to get a squad to play the way he wants?
Again, no case to keep him, ideally he's already gone by the time Monday comes around.
I’m not asking him to turn Saville into Neves or Donk into Maddison , just wanted him to use the players differently.Every team in this division is filled with internationals. It's not like that's anything special or instant success these days.
Do you think you can change a player into something they are not in a "full pre season and 4/5 days a week" ? Go back to when Nuno joined, he was given 3 players a level above the league. Players like Batth., Edwards, Bright and several others long forgotten were tried and moved on as not good enough. Replaced with Neves, Jota, Boly. Thats like being given Kante, Mane and Van Dijk at this level! Nuno was supported far beyond what Bruno (and Nuno himself the 2 seasons before) were. How long would it have taken to turn George Savile into Ruben Neves? Would a full pre-season be enough ? So how long will it take to turn Donk into Maddison? Coady into Tarkowski? It's never going to happen. If you want to go up a level, you have to get players a level higher in.
Whatever we've learnt about Bruno not being good enough, we've learnt that a lot of our squad can only play one way. And that's the way that fits the system we had for 4 years previous. Expecting this change while the core squad remains the same, worth a try, but clearly failed.
Attack is different - still not sure what's going on there. We never had much of an attacking plan, it was always down to stay organised and wait for the magic from an individual. And set pieces.
Just a bit of expectation management - no manager is going to be able to turn this squad into that possession based, exciting attacking team. Seem to remember in our first season back, they said we didn't win a single match where we dominated possession. The matches we won, were won by not having possession! When we beat Man City 3-2 in the 2nd season, that was a rare case of us winning a match where we dominated possession. But that was very much an exception.
This season has been a natural progression from last. There's no sudden cliff, we were this bad most of last season, too. If anything, Bruno steadied the decline , yet once again, a chance to push on and build was missed in the winter window.
If we change managers, I can only see significant improvement if it is part of a rejuvinated project, like when Nuno joined. That we get 3 or 4 top players in too, and the new manager builds something new around them. Just like 4 years ago.
Every team in this division is filled with internationals. It's not like that's anything special or instant success these days.
Do you think you can change a player into something they are not in a "full pre season and 4/5 days a week" ? Go back to when Nuno joined, he was given 3 players a level above the league. Players like Batth., Edwards, Bright and several others long forgotten were tried and moved on as not good enough. Replaced with Neves, Jota, Boly. Thats like being given Kante, Mane and Van Dijk at this level! Nuno was supported far beyond what Bruno (and Nuno himself the 2 seasons before) were. How long would it have taken to turn George Savile into Ruben Neves? Would a full pre-season be enough ? So how long will it take to turn Donk into Maddison? Coady into Tarkowski? It's never going to happen. If you want to go up a level, you have to get players a level higher in.
Whatever we've learnt about Bruno not being good enough, we've learnt that a lot of our squad can only play one way. And that's the way that fits the system we had for 4 years previous. Expecting this change while the core squad remains the same, worth a try, but clearly failed.
Attack is different - still not sure what's going on there. We never had much of an attacking plan, it was always down to stay organised and wait for the magic from an individual. And set pieces.
Just a bit of expectation management - no manager is going to be able to turn this squad into that possession based, exciting attacking team. Seem to remember in our first season back, they said we didn't win a single match where we dominated possession. The matches we won, were won by not having possession! When we beat Man City 3-2 in the 2nd season, that was a rare case of us winning a match where we dominated possession. But that was very much an exception.
This season has been a natural progression from last. There's no sudden cliff, we were this bad most of last season, too. If anything, Bruno steadied the decline , yet once again, a chance to push on and build was missed in the winter window.
If we change managers, I can only see significant improvement if it is part of a rejuvinated project, like when Nuno joined. That we get 3 or 4 top players in too, and the new manager builds something new around them. Just like 4 years ago.
Ironically our drop off has confirmed West Ham in 7th and their season is over, so if Brighton beat them next week it will be worth millions in position money to overtake us and potentially rise 2 places. That's assuming Liverpool thump us out of sight.
So again, Lage is unable to adapt and coach players to play his style, so he's just given up?Because Forest were **** at the time, and Watford ditto. We've played it in spells, but to do it you need fast defenders and midfielders. We have Neto who still isn't fit, and Chiquinho who is probably the fastest player. Most of the squad are not fast, or fit enough to run like you need to in the style Lage wants to play. There is also no goal scorers.
It's like any job you 've been doing for years. You get into a comfort zone and it's really hard to get out of it. We have a team full of players who are in a comfort zone in a 3-5-2.
Lage wants to play a 4-3-3 like Liverpool, but without the players you get found out. Coady, Kilman, Boly ,Saiss, Moutinho and Neves are not fast, so they reverted to type. But it was always going to suffer when we got injuries with such a small squad.
Then why have we not used a game like today to give the players a run in 'his system' to see which going forward do have that ability, my thoughts? He hasn't got the personality, ability and/or respect to implement what he 'desires' and has little idea what to do outside of that.Two sides to every coin of course but you could argue he realised that the players just didn't have the right attributes to successfully play the way he wants and took the pragmatic route to give himself the best chance of getting results.
I'm all for staying true to your principles but not to the point of committing professional suicide.
I know you like to be contrary as the name indicates but I am sure you wouldn't be as naive to suggest the above without looking at injuries/europe for West Ham and United having a manager who is the equal to the walking dead, actually quite a lot like Bruno.Sad that West Hams form has also dropped off. They have the same points as us in the last 10 games. 11 points. Also, same as Man Utd. So we have missed a real chance to overtake those two as they have faltered as badly as us.
Given all the noise on here, it's a bit of a shock when you see that both us, West Ham and Man U have 11 points from the last 10 games, . Our form is identical. We've all scored 13 goals, too. So if our last 10 match form is "relegation form", then we will be battling West Ham and Man U next season! Villa too, as they also have 11 points from the last 10. Villa have scored one less goal than "never scoring" Wolves, too.
He's actually doing well there, but they realise his limitations and he has a more mobile defender next to him. His last display against Wednesday was described as miraculous and he'll play in the final next week. But yeah, he's League 1. Keep the ball on the floor and he'll struggle with his mobility.Hell, there were still people claiming that Batth, a player whose severe limitations were obvious during promotion season was a decent PL defender as a backup! Now he's Sunderland in League One and can barely get a game.
I know you like to be contrary as the name indicates but I am sure you wouldn't be as naive to suggest the above without looking at injuries/europe for West Ham and United having a manager who is the equal to the walking dead, actually quite a lot like Bruno.
It isn't only Liverpool that play 4-3-3 fyi. You need players that are fast. We have no fast defenders or midfielders apart from Yerson and Toti. Coady, Saiss, Boly, Kilman, Neves, Moutinho, Cundle, Donk. 8 players who are on the slow side. Play that first three games style for 37 games and we'd have not only be at the bottom of the league, we'd have less than 11 first team players to play as the all the others would be long term injuries. Some already are!So again, Lage is unable to adapt and coach players to play his style, so he's just given up?
Crock of ****e as well, those first 3 games were just bad luck in terms of finishing but the actual performances were good and you could see the players enjoying it again, look at them now.
Lage wants a style akin to Liverpool whilst having nowhere near the budget or club reputation required?
Again, what in his inability to coach players in a style gives you any confidence he has this ability.
So we agree, it's comparing apples to oranges.Just quoted numbers, that's all. Last 10 match form table. There's no points bonuses for injuries/europe. There's always a reason. As if we haven't been without serious injury problems. Our world class striker ruined by serious injury. Player of the season Kilman, injured, which pretty much corresponds to our defence creaking. If Kilman was fit, we'd have scraped a 1-0 today and a couple of the other matches we lost recently, for sure.
Semedo, Kilman, Coady, Saiss, Marcal. They were our back line through that winning period. 2 injured, 1 hasn't played for a few games. And of course Traore to keep the opposition guessing.Just quoted numbers, that's all. Last 10 match form table. There's no points bonuses for injuries/europe. There's always a reason. As if we haven't been without serious injury problems. Our world class striker ruined by serious injury. Player of the season Kilman, injured, which pretty much corresponds to our defence creaking. If Kilman was fit, we'd have scraped a 1-0 today and a couple of the other matches we lost recently, for sure.
What's wrong with showing the same leeway to Wolves that people show to other clubs? Instead of putting the effort into finding apologies for other clubs on as bad a run as us.
You can coach good recovery, good habits, good diet. You can coach a team that can actually use a conservative approach whilst still being dynamic in attack (West Ham). Instead, Bruno, can only play one way and once that failed he reverted back to the tried and true boredom ball?It isn't only Liverpool that play 4-3-3 fyi. You need players that are fast. We have no fast defenders or midfielders apart from Yerson and Toti. Coady, Saiss, Boly, Kilman, Neves, Moutinho, Cundle, Donk. 8 players who are on the slow side. Play that first three games style for 37 games and we'd have not only be at the bottom of the league, we'd have less than 11 first team players to play as the all the others would be long term injuries. Some already are!
You can't coach speed into players.
Chiquino looks really good. Sa our POTS. Hwang pretty average to be fair.Our recent purchases dont hold out much hope ……
I think they can claim European distractions, West Ham went longer than Man U but their disappointment might have been greater as they only got knocked out last week. Wolves should have taken advantage of them both and sailed past them, but we were just not good enough.Sad that West Hams form has also dropped off. They have the same points as us in the last 10 games. 11 points. Also, same as Man Utd. So we have missed a real chance to overtake those two as they have faltered as badly as us.
Given all the noise on here, it's a bit of a shock when you see that both us, West Ham and Man U have 11 points from the last 10 games, . Our form is identical. We've all scored 13 goals, too. So if our last 10 match form is "relegation form", then we will be battling West Ham and Man U next season! Villa too, as they also have 11 points from the last 10. Villa have scored one less goal than "never scoring" Wolves, too.
All depends on the people who supply the players doesn’t it? They’ve been pretty **** for a couple of years.Do you trust him to deliver on that chance?
If we had some attackers yes. Raul, Neto, Hwang, Fabio, Trincao, Podence. How many have they scored this season? How many of the strikers have scored since the Leeds game? I'll keep Chiquinho out because he's just got into the side.You can coach good recovery, good habits, good diet. You can coach a team that can actually use a conservative approach whilst still being dynamic in attack (West Ham). Instead, Bruno, can only play one way and once that failed he reverted back to the tried and true boredom ball?
What part of that oozes a manager able to build and influence a side?
From someone who knows to much about them, they've been running on fumes the past few weeks where the small squad (where has that come up before) has run aground as some key components that carried the team ran out of form or got injured (namely Antonio and Bowen missing a few games). Still they rallied when it counts and have another go at European football next season.I think they can claim European distractions, West Ham went longer than Man U but their disappointment might have been greater as they only got knocked out last week. Wolves should have taken advantage of them both and sailed past them, but we were just not good enough.
No. That’s why we’re 12 places higher than them.But how can he not have learned from the two previous Norwich games? Is the squad worse than Norwich’s?
We barely create anything for a forward player to feast on, our xG is pretty much spot on at being super low because our overall negative play lends itself to not exactly being a strikers dream.If we had some attackers yes. Raul, Neto, Hwang, Fabio, Trincao, Podence. How many have they scored this season? How many of the strikers have scored since the Leeds game? I'll keep Chiquinho out because he's just got into the side.
Bowen scored more goals than our whole forward line on his own. That's how light our forward line is.From someone who knows to much about them, they've been running on fumes the past few weeks where the small squad (where has that come up before) has run aground as some key components that carried the team ran out of form or got injured (namely Antonio and Bowen missing a few games). Still they rallied when it counts and have another go at European football next season.
I actually think when we do recruit a player we tend to have a good strike record, its just not enough of them.All depends on the people who supply the players doesn’t it? They’ve been pretty **** for a couple of years.
Moyes setup West Ham to actually attack, and not opt for a safety first approach.Bowen scored more goals than our whole forward line on his own. That's how light our forward line is.
We couldn't hold them off with 5 at the back!!! Imagine trying it with 4!!!Lage has done well with limited resources and a squad that must have known for weeks they many would be moving on. But his decisions in the last few games have been weird. Why play Chiquinho at RWB? Why not play back 4 against the likes of Norwich?
I think he deserves the chance to bring in some of his own players, but I wouldn't be crying if he moves on this summer.
Rubbish. 18 shots today, 4 on target, 1 goal. Our strikers...... don't. And it's been a problem for more than this season.We barely create anything for a forward player to feast on, our xG is pretty much spot on at being super low because our overall negative play lends itself to not exactly being a strikers dream.
I don't think Fosun want attacking football, they don't give a stuff how we play so long as we stay in the prem. We are an investment, a hook to get construction contracts in the Midlands, nothing more. That's why we have a cheap coach and buy 'bargains' or 'players for the future'.I wish I knew what Fosun wanted. It was reported they sacked Nuno because they wanted a better brand of football. Now did they think it was Nuno or the squad obviously they thought it was Nuno. So they bring in Bruno now did he promise to provide better play with the same squad? Maybe he thought he could but after the first three defeats he reverted to a defensive set up. I will say on Bruno’s behalf he was totally bummed by the board in January when we were in touching distance of a top 6 finish we failed to bring anyone in. I’m not bothered if he stays or goes but I hope Fosun’s idea of wanting attacking football still stands and they will provide funds to Bruno or a new guy to achieve it. 51 points so far (probably will remain 51) isn’t so bad but for me there’s a big sense of missed opportunity. We got so close and could have pushed on this year. I can’t help thinking with Newcastle coming in the money it won’t be so easy next season.
Against (wait for it), Norwich, the team with a -56 GD.Rubbish. 18 shots today, 4 on target, 1 goal. Our strikers...... don't. And it's been a problem for more than this season.