A Nuno Hangover

[Pseudonym]

I need to preface this post with an important point, to ensure I'm not falling foul of neglectful recency bias and attaching the merited beauty to Nuno's tenure, which he deserves.

Nuno gave me the best years of my Wolves life, inclusive of dizzying emotion I never thought I would feel as a Wolves fan. I will always be indebted to Nuno and what he made me/us feel over those special 3-4 years.

However, based on the early criticism of Nuno's reign at Spurs (below) and the parallels in key metrics to his time with us - have we begun to understand his tactics more and further come to understand our profligacy in front of goal?

Why would we have instinctive, natural finishers in our squad, when for the past two/three seasons, we've retained the same midfield & attacking talent who was so under-indexing in their shots at and goals in the net?

Is is blasphemous to suggest we have a Nuno hangover that is affecting our ability to put the ball in the net?

 

[Halesowen wwfc]

I think thats a fair view. The team had been drilled into that style of play for4 years, a system that became less effective as we sold some personnel, plus other teams sussing it out. The anaylsis of the spurs team over the weekend was very reminiscent of our last year. Huge gaps between the midfield, no one seemingly understanding their role and positioning, and being ultra defensive without actually being any good at defending.

What that means going forward for wolves i dont know. We played well for three games, didnt get a point, then played ok to poor the last 3 games and got 2 wins out of 3.

 

[goldfish]

I'm actually amazed this hasn't been *more* of a problem, especially defensively. Switching from a side that barely presses to one which makes it a key factor of their game without substantial additions and after a truncated preseason is not easy. Ditto on playing out from the back.

 

[Flump]

Ah, so it's Nuno's fault that we're not scoring as many as some people promised we would with Bruno.

 

[Krispy Kreme]

Will take more than a year to implement a new style.

Look at any successful side, City Liverpool didn't happen overnight.

We will stay up this year and next year is the year to judge Bruno.

 

[Pseudonym]

Ah, so it's Nuno's fault that we're not scoring as many as some people promised we would with Bruno.

Are you at least tempted to confront the data and apply some critical analysis before providing an emotional opinion missing the point?

If you're a student of the game, you will recall the Porto fans' criticism of Nuno stemmed from precisely the issues currently plaguing Spurs and those same ones that troubled us during the 20/21 season.

We were a counter-attacking team under Nuno - an underdog if you will - which I think suited his tactics perfectly. I'm now piecing together that his style might not be proficient for 'top' teams who expect possession and to dictate play

 

[Golden Oldie]

It's looking ominously likely that Nuno won't get a year to develop a system at Spurs. Football is a ruthless business
and if Wolves failed to move on from Nuno's tenure and for a moment flirted with relegation my guess is that Lage
wouldn't survive at Molineux either.

 

[wolfgar]

Nuno looks in deep trouble over at Spurs, Twitter on Sunday had Nuno Out trending and he's only six games in! Saw some pretty horrible stuff. Feel a bit sorry for him tbh. Loads of people suggesting the players don't respect him and aren't playing for him. What a bunch of ********s they all are over there.

 

[sillytuna]

Nuno needed time off after leaving us. He looks a shadow of his former self. Last season hurt him.

I remember when we knew exactly how we'd play. Every player, every position. Last season and now even more this season with spurs - shambles.

 

[Michellis]

Nuno gone by Christmas I reckon.
Always thought it was a bizarre appointment.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Will take more than a year to implement a new style.

Look at any successful side, City Liverpool didn't happen overnight.

We will stay up this year and next year is the year to judge Bruno.

While l freely admit that he made more personnel changes and that may be relevant how long did it take Nuno to implement his style in the Chump?

Ah, so it's Nuno's fault that we're not scoring as many as some people promised we would with Bruno.

Exactly.

 

[NewOrder306]

Nuno looks in deep trouble over at Spurs, Twitter on Sunday had Nuno Out trending and he's only six games in! Saw some pretty horrible stuff. Feel a bit sorry for him tbh. Loads of people suggesting the players don't respect him and aren't playing for him. What a bunch of ********s they all are over there.

I hope Nuno gets the boot at Tottenham and soon...........I loved Nuno (I still do...!!) but to me it feels like a divorce/relationship split and on the rebound he is now with someone down the road you do not like at all and think they are not good enough for him (and people who know you think you are just being bitter and twisted) and every time you see him with them it turns your stomach - rather he was not there and I did not see him with someone else. Our time together was fantastic, it had to end but it still smarts.........In Bruno I trust (but there will always be a corner in my heart for NES (always). Do not like the thought of his head on the end of a spike at Spuds but it has to happen and after it does, I will feel a lot better - and so will he......OUT OF DARKNESS......

 

[tamwolf]

Ah, so it's Nuno's fault that we're not scoring as many as some people promised we would with Bruno.

Are you suggesting Nuno is blameless?

 

[Flump]

Are you suggesting Nuno is blameless?

No. But I'm wondering how long people are going to keep blaming him for everything that isn't perfect.

How long did Nuno take to get his methods across in the chump?
How long did Tuchel take to get his methods across?
How long has Benitez taken to get his methods across?

Furthermore, going in the defensive coach to attacking coach direction, it seems to me like it's often in the initial period where the team is now free-er but still retains some of the solidity of before, that results are best - think of Martinez taking over from Moyes and initially doing brilliantly for the clearest example, or any time Marco Silva takes over a relegation battling club and looks like a genius for 15 games.

I'm well aware that you could find examples of slow starts that have gone on to success (although Klopp, Pep etc are more about building their own system, rather than blaming the previous coach - Pellegrini certainly wasn't holding them back) but a lot of the Nuno-blame is just people being too used to having painted him as the bogey-man that was holding us back from scoring 3 every week to be able to move on, IMO.

 

[Ned]

Ah, so it's Nuno's fault that we're not scoring as many as some people promised we would with Bruno.

Ah… reading something, taking needless offence to it and then trying to argue needlessly about it… unlike you.

 

[Direwolf]

I think Spurs fans expectations are a little high for the quality of players they have. I think 9 points for them is not great but not too bad. Midfield looks well unfit and while they have some quality on the ball they are slow plodders.

 

[Flump]

Ah… reading something, taking needless offence to it and then trying to argue needlessly about it… unlike you.

I'm not offended, I just disagree.

 

[Ned]

Basically yes. It’s an issue but it was always going to be. The players have had shape drilled into them for the last few seasons non-stop; it wasn’t a bad thing but for a new manager to come in and be forced to use the same personnel but completely change everything - it’s a tough ask that will take time.

The only disappointment is that we looked like we had completely changed for the better after the first 3 games (despite losing all games 1-0) and then we’ve started to return to the Nuno ways.

I think Bruno’s hands are tied somewhat in terms of making the change a natural and permanent one until he gets another 2-3 players who weren’t around for the Nuno days.

I wonder whether it’s the defensive side of things that is causing this slide backwards; getting deeper, bringing the midfield with them and creating the same massive gap between the forward and midfield as before.

 

[Ned]

I'm not offended, I just disagree.

I was only joking, probably should have stuck an emoji on the end, tbh.

 

[Flump]

I was only joking, probably should have stuck an emoji on the end, tbh.

Don't worry, I've stopped crying about it now...

 

[tamwolf]

No. But I'm wondering how long people are going to keep blaming him for everything that isn't perfect.

How long did Nuno take to get his methods across in the chump?
How long did Tuchel take to get his methods across?
How long has Benitez taken to get his methods across?

Furthermore, going in the defensive coach to attacking coach direction, it seems to me like it's often in the initial period where the team is now free-er but still retains some of the solidity of before, that results are best - think of Martinez taking over from Moyes and initially doing brilliantly for the clearest example, or any time Marco Silva takes over a relegation battling club and looks like a genius for 15 games.

I'm well aware that you could find examples of slow starts that have gone on to success (although Klopp, Pep etc are more about building their own system, rather than blaming the previous coach - Pellegrini certainly wasn't holding them back) but a lot of the Nuno-blame is just people being too used to having painted him as the bogey-man that was holding us back from scoring 3 every week to be able to move on, IMO.

Nuno got a new influential core to the team when he started, with Neves, Jota, Bonatini, Boly etc. This made it easier to get new ideas across and make changes with the squad. I imagine he would have found it much more difficult had he not had this investment.

Bruno Lage has had little investment in the team in areas that need strengthening. The core of the squad is still the same and therefore the same problems remain. We have seen his new ideas come across in the first few games, with higher pressing and more change creation. He can't turn non-goalscorers into goalscorers overnight though.

I don't think it is unfair to suggest that there is a hangover from the previous leadership within a squad where the core remains the same at the beginning of the season. The same applies for Nuno in his new role at Spurs.

 

[tamwolf]

I think Spurs fans expectations are a little high for the quality of players they have. I think 9 points for them is not great but not too bad. Midfield looks well unfit and while they have some quality on the ball they are slow plodders.

Conceding 3 goals per game over the last three league games is pretty poor for them to be fair. We wouldn't be happy with that.

 

[Zico]

How long did Nuno take to get his methods across in the chump?
How long did Tuchel take to get his methods across?
How long has Benitez taken to get his methods across?

Fair enough. But there's a genuine point as to how used these current players are to Nuno's style, and the fact that Bruno hasn't been able to freshen up the personnel in the way he'd like to. So I don't think you can write off the OP's argument, I think there's a lot in it.

 

[Flump]

Nuno got a new influential core to the team when he started, with Neves, Jota, Bonatini, Boly etc. This made it easier to get new ideas across and make changes with the squad. I imagine he would have found it much more difficult had he not had this investment.

I don't think it is unfair to suggest that there is a hangover from the previous leadership within a squad where the core remains the same at the beginning of the season. The same applies for Nuno in his new role at Spurs.

He does have to work with the same squad, and I genuinely believe managers need far more time than they're usually given before being judged.

BUT it's really tiresome having heard from games 1-3 how amazing Bruno is to have completely turned around the club, and then from games 4-6 hear the same people blaming Nuno for there not having been more progress.

 

[Clifton Wolf]

Nuno gone by Christmas I reckon.
Always thought it was a bizarre appointment.

He’ll be lucky, if he loses the next 2 then he will probably get the chop especially if the players are visibly not applying any desire. I don’t understand how you can’t respect him, his principles and the way in which he conducts himself deserves respect. If results don’t come off the back of that then fair enough but at the very least he is deserving of every player applying themselves and respecting him.

Spurs are a shambles and it’s far more than just Nuno.

Mourinho was a horrendous fit, Kane wanted to leave and all of that coupled with a lack of spending have turned the place toxic.

 

[tamwolf]

He does have to work with the same squad, and I genuinely believe managers need far more time than they're usually given before being judged.

BUT it's really tiresome having heard from games 1-3 how amazing Bruno is to have completely turned around the club, and then from games 4-6 hear the same people blaming Nuno for there not having been more progress.

You must be looking at different things to me then. I think people were happy with the new style those first three games but saw the hangover from the previous systems with our lack of prolificacy in front of goal.

I don't think that has changed, just that our performances have dropped a little.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

I was a big fan of Nuno at Wolves, and while I came to terms with his leaving, I was not one asking for him to go. However, I think there’s some truth to the OP. Managers, like Nuno and Mick, who have a strong / forceful character, and have the chance to build a squad around them, often leave a shadow over their successors. Other managers are journeymen, who move from club to club barely leaving a trace.

Wolves have, by their admission, gone for evolution rather than revolution. That means we basically have the same squad, with all their engrained habits, being led by a coach who has been employed to implement a change in style which Nuno tried but failed to achieve last season. How this will work out in the end, I have no idea. Man Utd are still, to some extent, under the shadow of Fergie!

 

[Flump]

You must be looking at different things to me then. I think people were happy with the new style those first three games but saw the hangover from the previous systems with our prolifacy in front of goal.

I don't think that has changed, just that our performances have dropped a little.

I don't see how what Nuno did in terms of style of play a year ago is causing our players to miss chances now.

 

[ToastedWanderer]

Nuno's system worked in the first couple of Prem seasons, we were hard to beat, pace up front and great support from the crowd. This lead to some wonderful goals, results and memories. But be it transfers, injuries, covid or competition getting wise, Nuno became a shadow of himself this year.

I was upset when we announced his departure, but the timing did feel right on reflection. But I don't think he should have took such a high profile position off the back of the 20/21 season. Ideally he should have spent some time back home, but as he stayed in the UK, there were a couple of other opportunities better suited where he could have got the job done under way less scrutiny. I hope it comes good for him, but he'll need results a lot quicker than elsewhere.

With that said, we've not been a high scoring team even in the good seasons. I recall dry patches from all our forwards, but there was always a Doherty, Boly or Saiss header to keep us in the running. At the end of the day, top goal scorers cost a fortune and gravitate to top clubs. We're not unique in not being high scorers, but our squad has the potential to kick on with a more forward thinking coach.

I know it's difficult given our squad is very similar to last season, but we need to wish Nuno well and find a new identity..

 

[tamwolf]

I don't see how what Nuno did in terms of style of play a year ago is causing our players to miss chances now.

You mean you don't see how us being one of the lowest scorers in the league and lowest chance creators for over a year can decrease our players confidence and composure in front of goal?

I guess I can't help you then.

 

[MolineuxMixer]

It's tough managing a top 6 club!!!

 

[Fifty Niner]

Wolves ran the the least of any PL team last season and it’s sad to see the stats to date at Spurs are so similar to our final season. But Spurs are a toxic bunch and I was surprised Nuno took the gig given that he was offered the job because no-one else wanted it.

All in all, Nuno created a defensive counter attacking team that did really well for two seasons but have never been good at scoring lots of goals. Bruno mentioned this in a recent article. Expecting the same players to suddenly become prolific after a few weeks of training and half a dozen games is like expecting opening fast bowler Jimmy Anderson to open the batting for England and score at 4 an over after a few knocks. Bruno needs the right players to make it work.

 

[Flump]

You mean you don't see how us being one of the lowest scorers in the league and lowest chance creators for over a year can decrease our players confidence and composure in front of goal?

I guess I can't help you then.

Under Nuno the problem was chance creation, we scored about in line with what you'd expect, given the # of chances we had

Under Bruno, we create more chances, but can't finish very well

So it's Nuno's fault that the players are now missing proportionally more than they ever did under him, right? I guess I can't help you either.

 

[Ned]

Don't worry, I've stopped crying about it now...

Raul was rubbish though

 

[KBWWFC]

I don't see how what Nuno did in terms of style of play a year ago is causing our players to miss chances now.

It could be argued that recruitment wise, we signed limited players who's attributes fit the Nuno system perfectly - sort of like moneyball, (a good example of a limited player is Doherty, who is a lost sheep outside this one system), and their deficiencies are holding us back from evolving.

Some examples:
Boly - history of concentration issues in a 4, system provides extra protection
Moutinho - his engine is going, Nunos system employed low running levels and low pressures, preserving his legs.
Neto / Adama / Podence - all selfish, system doesn't revolve around players in box and creating chances, allows selfish players to become focal points without detracting from the team
Rui - excellent shot stopper, doesn't come off his line, poor distribution. Low block of defenders means he doesn't have to come from his line too often. Sweeper provides distribution out from back to compensate for poor kicking.
Coady - slow, weak, poor in the air, very good at passing. Low block doesn't expose his lack of pace, two defenders either side to cover for weakness and aerial deficiencies, passing is accentuated by allowing him to become focal point at the back.


But I agree, it's poor to be blaming Nuno now. He's gone, Bruno is the boss.

 

[Contrarian]

I don't see how what Nuno did in terms of style of play a year ago is causing our players to miss chances now.

It's not the method. It's the players and our lack of effective finishers - and Nuno bought them. Bruno got his method across quick enough, as those first few matches show. The only problem was the final finish. And there is no method that can turn someone into a natural finisher. Everything worked well until the ball was at their feet with goal in sight...and that they didn't score is down to having only Raul and Neto who are efficient in that position.

When it comes to "method", one of the easier things you can do is organise a defence. Many times we see a manager do that with average players and make them hard to beat. You can devise a method that creates chances, but it's not the method that puts them away. Look at the chances Traore and Semedo have had, also plenty of chances have fallen to others - do we suddenly expect players who were never remotely clinical finishers, suddenly turn into them?

Well, I'm no expert, and while it does happen that a player gets past age 24 or 25 and starts scoring goals when they never did before, it's very very rare. I guess it can be coached and players can always improve, just that I've rarely ever seen it in real life.

Nuno bought 9 out of 10 outfield players who started on Sunday (or 8 out of 10 as Coady was already here! Though he is very much Nuno's man, would have been sold by now if it wasn't for Nuno) . Bruno wanted more incomings, he didn't get them, only one of those players is his choice. Ironically another striker with a patchy record of not scoring. Though Hwang has been an efficient goal scorer in the past (in the Austrian league), so at least with him their is a hope that it may "click". With Traore, Podence, Semedo, Marcal etc, it's never going to happen, they are always going to score 1 out of 5 golden opportunites, where better PL finisher would be scoring 1 out of 2.

One thing I don't get is that working on set pieces is another thing that can be coached. And our set pieces are still really bad. It's such a vital source of goals at this level - 1 in 3 or so, I believe. Defensively, we appear to be defending set pieces better than last season. But attacking wise, both the ideas and the execution just don't seem to be there.

TLDR: The players have taken to Bruno's methods fine. Until the point where the ball needs to be despatched to back of the net. This is a player ability and our squad is lacking players to turn our chances into goals. We need to buy a goalscorer.

<EDIT> It's not that players are missing chances "now". These same players always missed chances. What is Adama (in) famous for?

 

[tamwolf]

Under Nuno the problem was chance creation, we scored about in line with what you'd expect, given the # of chances we had

Under Bruno, we create more chances, but can't finish very well

So it's Nuno's fault that the players are now missing proportionally more than they ever did under him, right? I guess I can't help you either.

Why can't it be a mixture of low confidence in front of goal from a previous regime, the lack of investment in the team, bad luck in front of goal and current systems?

You seem to assume everyone argues in extremes and because people think a hangover from Nuno may be part of it, they think everything is Nuno's fault with no nuance. This is why you are so frustrated and wound up about anyone making an sort of suggestion that it may impact.

 

[Contrarian]

Under Nuno the problem was chance creation, we scored about in line with what you'd expect, given the # of chances we had

Under Bruno, we create more chances, but can't finish very well

So it's Nuno's fault that the players are now missing proportionally more than they ever did under him, right? I guess I can't help you either.

Bring in players with equivalent finishing skills to Jota and Doherty and the scoring rate would increase, even if nothing else changed.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

I absolutely love(d) Nuno and personally felt he deserved one more season with us.

However even Ray Charles could see him going to Spurs was a awful move for all concerned. He was 5th or 6th choice so is already on the back foot with a very difficult fan base, plus surely it has to be in his mind he only has the job because so many turned it down. Add in he doesn’t play the Spurs “way” (which is a nonsense seeing as they’ve won nothing of note in 30 years) and he’s on a hiding to nothing.

It would be very easy to be cynical here and think nuno went there knowing the above but also knowing he’d get a massive pay off in a few months, but he doesn’t come across as that sort at all

 

[Contrarian]

Why can't it be a mixture of low confidence in front of goal from a previous regime, the lack of investment in the team, bad luck in front of goal and current systems?

You seem to assume everyone argues in extremes and because people think a hangover from Nuno may be part of it, they think everything is Nuno's fault with no nuance. This is why you are so frustrated and wound up about anyone making an sort of suggestion that it may impact.

Given that only 1 outfield player is Bruno's choice, it seems a bit crazy to me to suggest Nuno has no part in the current team!

When Nuno took over, he had Jota, Neves and Boly as his players from the first match. What is the equivalent of that in the Premier League? It's not an equal comparison unless Bruno was given three £100M players better than any others in the league. That's what Nuno was given at Championship level.

Forget the £100M, Bruno wasn't given anything near the licence Nuno was given - a league lower!