Luiz should have been sent off

[Deleted member 8913]

the ref saw a clash of heads...he could not possibly have issued a red based on what he saw ...accidental clash of heads.

VAR only review for clear and obvious error...given the spirited discussion here it was not a clear and obvious error.

Having seen many replays it becomes clear it was Luiz fault as he was clearly late and Raul had cleared the ball. It was reckless but I can’t criticize the ref and VAr for the decision. It wasn’t clear at the time what had happened and in 50 years of watching football I don’t think I have ever seen a sending off for an aerial clash of heads That was accidental.

 

[PhoenixUnited]

No he didn't. He went for the ball, missed it, caught the player. These things happen.

It's all a matter of opinion. The German keeper was utterly reckless and nowhere near the ball when he poleaxed the French player

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

No missing the point at all. If Raul jumps with his head only marginally turned then Luiz headbutts the back of his head and could come off worse. We're talking fine lines yet you think it's black and white.

It's not as red card and 99.99999% of the nation agree so step down.

Disagree.

Can you explain the Elokobi one please.

Why is this a red and Luiz's not?

 

[NewarkWolf]

Are we saying a player can't make a substantial run with pace to try and head the ball? The risk of the action is the same no matter on the outcome, we can't say it's a red card and criminal just because it's blown someone's face open but ok if they missed the player by a pubic hair.

The risk of collision and similar result is there on both occasions so should be punished the same then!

 

[NewarkWolf]

the ref saw a clash of heads...he could not possibly have issued a red based on what he saw ...accidental clash of heads.

VAR only review for clear and obvious error...given the spirited discussion here it was not a clear and obvious error.

Having seen many replays it becomes clear it was Luia fault as he was clearly late and Raul had cleared the ball. It was reckless but I can’t criticize the ref and VAr for the decision. It wasn’t clear at the time what had happened..

He hadn't cleared the ball at all! You speak like it was seconds between the two points!

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

Not really though. Goodman fractured his skull in a very similar incident and he was the one attacking the ball

I haven't seen the Goodman one in enough detail, although have read his comments.

Given the speed of Luiz, I don't see how Jimenez can possibly come off worse than him.

 

[NewarkWolf]

Disagree.

Can you explain the Elokobi one please.

Why is this a red and Luiz's not?

Disagree that's fine. As I said, you're in a tiny tiny group who do. Reflect on that

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

Disagree that's fine. As I said, you're in a tiny tiny group who do. Reflect on that

You didn't explain how Elokobi was sent off.

Can you answer that please?

 

[NewarkWolf]

I haven't seen the Goodman one in enough detail, although have read his comments.

Given the speed of Luiz, I don't see how Jimenez can possibly come off worse than him.

Yes, Luiz was running too fast to get a header in. Time we restrict the speed of players for certain passages of play.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

Yes, Luiz was running too fast to get a header in. Time we restrict the speed of players for certain passages of play.

Why does everyone want stuff banned? Very dramatic. He can run as fast as he wants, but if he is out of control, misses the ball and causes an injury, he's leaving himself open to be sent off.

 

[SoCal_Wolf]

Because heading the ball is a part of the game. He went to head it....... Didn't lead with elbow. It's a ****ing accident! A nasty one. It's not like howey on Thomas or carbon on ndah! Yet you lot are beating that very drum!

Eh...many red card tackles are accidental as well (see the Milivojevic's tackle on Moutinho the other week). He got there a split second late (still got a piece of the ball as well). But it was late and dangerous. Definite red card. I could argue, like you, "hey, it was an accident and tackling is part of the game!"

I won't change your mind and it doesn't really matter a hill of beans, in the end. It doesn't bring Raul back any quicker. We just see it differently and I'm okay with that.

I do think, however, that football needs to tighten up their head injury protocols and be more protective of the players--I wonder if Luiz is really okay from that collision. Just because it's a corner, there shouldn't be different rules for clattering into players at full speed, IMO. Take that very same play and put it out into the center of the pitch...it's certainly a foul, probably a booking, and given how violent the collision was, possibly a red card.

 

[NewarkWolf]

He

You didn't explain how Elokobi was sent off.

Can you answer that please?

His eyes are on the player as the ball and player are in direct line of George's view, the ball can't be won by George as the full players body is in line beteen him and the direction of the ball, he has no way of winning that if the player jumps, George can see that clearly and knows that going in would 100% have full impact, he knows that! George hits him elbow and shoulder first to add to that! The ball wasn't there for George to win without impact which he could see clearly. The direction of Luiz run to the area to head with the ball coming from a sideways angle makes that so different. There you go.

 

[NewarkWolf]

Eh...many red card tackles are accidental as well (see the Milivojevic's tackle on Moutinho the other week). He got there a split second late (still got a piece of the ball as well). But it was late and dangerous. Definite red card. I could argue, like you, "hey, it was an accident and tackling is part of the game!"

I won't change your mind and it doesn't really matter a hill of beans, in the end. It doesn't bring Raul back any quicker. We just see it differently and I'm okay with that.

I do think, however, that football needs to tighten up their head injury protocols and be more protective of the players--I wonder if Luiz is really okay from that collision. Just because it's a corner, there shouldn't be different rules for clattering into players at full speed, IMO. Take that very same play and put it out into the center of the pitch...it's certainly a foul, probably a booking, and given how violent the collision was, possibly a red card.

'We' don't just see things differently. I alongb with the whole football community bar a small group of upset wolves fans sees it for what it was. A challenge he could and should go for yet ended in a nasty collision for both players

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

He
His eyes are on the player as the ball and player are in direct line of George's view, the ball can't be won by George as the full players body is in line beteen him and the direction of the ball, he has no way of winning that if the player jumps, George can see that clearly and knows that going in would 100% have full impact, he knows that! George hits him elbow and shoulder first to add to that! The ball wasn't there for George to win without impact which he could see clearly. The direction of Luiz run to the area to head with the ball coming from a sideways angle makes that so different. There you go.

Fair enough, completely disagree though

Luiz can't win that ball IMO. He also knows that he will make full impact which he could clearly see and the fact his arm was in Jimenez's mouth shows he also lead with it.

I see them as very similar incidents in the sense that one player has clattered into another, without winning the ball.

Luiz's was worse though as he was travelling at a quicker speed.

 

[Hot Fuss]

Apart from on here and Twitter (full of morons at best of times) ... Has anyone else seen any discussion about how it should have been a red card?

Genuinely interested to see which football pundits, current pro's and ex pro's think it should have been.

The answer is 0. Not one. Not a single person who has played, managed, coached, or reffed at the top level has criticised Luiz, not one pundit or journalist has blamed him either, yet mol mix and twitter are up in arms. Strange...

 

[NewarkWolf]

Why does everyone want stuff banned? Very dramatic. He can run as fast as he wants, but if he is out of control, misses the ball and causes an injury, he's leaving himself open to be sent off.

What if he doesn't cause injury. The same lead up the challenge should result in the same punishment due to the risk of holds then.
So judging it solely on the outcome of it being an injury.

If I fire a bullet at you and hit you... I'm arrested
If I fire it and miss..... I'm arrested.

If you're saying it's reckless it's irrelevant whether there's an injury or not so I look forward to the next clear header someone wins but does so arriving at pace but where opposition player pulls out (as we see many times anf winge that they did) so there's no collision at all yet the player heading out gets sent off for high risk and potentially dangerous play.

Send me that clip to view

 

[NewarkWolf]

Fair enough, completely disagree though

Luiz can't win that ball IMO. He also knows that he will make full impact which he could clearly see and the fact his arm was in Jimenez's mouth shows he also lead with it.

I see them as very similar incidents in the sense that one player has clattered into another, without winning the ball.

Luiz's was worse though as he was travelling at a quicker speed.

He doesn't know that impact is guaranteed at all. He's angled his run while the ball has started from out wide, it's so different.

 

[SoCal_Wolf]

'We' don't just see things differently. I alongb with the whole football community bar a small group of upset wolves fans sees it for what it was. A challenge he could and should go for yet ended in a nasty collision for both players

Okay, so much for the olive branch. I made the points that I wanted to make--perhaps the "whole football community" should reevaluate their views on these types of plays in the box and take head injuries seriously (and think of ways to protect players). Anyway, I'll leave you and Hot Fuss, paragons of the football community, to duke it out with those who see it differently.

 

[NewarkWolf]

Okay, so much for the olive branch. I made the points that I wanted to make--perhaps the "whole football community" should reevaluate their views on these types of plays in the box and take head injuries seriously (and think of ways to protect players). Anyway, I'll leave you and Hot Fuss, paragons of the football community, to duke it out with those who see it differently.

Cheers

 

[Hot Fuss]

Okay, so much for the olive branch. I made the points that I wanted to make--perhaps the "whole football community" should reevaluate their views on these types of plays in the box and take head injuries seriously (and think of ways to protect players). Anyway, I'll leave you and Hot Fuss, paragons of the football community, to duke it out with those who see it differently.

Thanks.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

What if he doesn't cause injury. The same lead up the challenge should result in the same punishment due to the risk of holds then.
So judging it solely on the outcome of it being an injury.

If I fire a bullet at you and hit you... I'm arrested
If I fire it and miss..... I'm arrested.

If you're saying it's reckless it's irrelevant whether there's an injury or not so I look forward to the next clear header someone wins but does so arriving at pace but where opposition player pulls out (as we see many times anf winge that they did) so there's no collision at all yet the player heading out gets sent off for high risk and potentially dangerous play.

Send me that clip to view

That's completely wrong though.

If a player flew in two-footed and completely missed the player, he doesn't usually get sent off. If they get the opponents leg, they're off.

If Pickford throws himself out at VVD, doesn't catch him, he doesn't get sent off.
Mane will have controlled a ball like he tried at Man City 100 times. That day, he caught Ederson, he was sent off.

Similarly, Matt Doherty didn't even get a free-kick when he nearly had his head kicked off at Burnley. Not even a foul (it should have been IMO), because there was no contact.

You have to judge things differently, and in this case there was contact so you judge accordingly.

 

[BarryM]

You didn't explain how Elokobi was sent off.

Can you answer that please?

You don't half waffle on about the same point.

So I will indulge you.

In the Elokobi one it is in a very open part of the pitch ... There are only 2 players going for this ball, 1 of which was never going to get there before the other. The ball was floated forward and was quite evident who was going to get to the ball first ... Elokobi thought he could get to the ball first but was wrong and it was pretty obvious he wasn't going to. He went flying into the back of the Doncaster player, not just with his head but with his whole body.

I actually think he was a bit unlucky to get a red for it but could understand why. The club would never have bothered appealing as it's subjective and it would never ever be overturned.

In the incident from Sunday there were 16 outfield players in the 18 yard box ... 2 of these players were right on the edge by where the corner was taken so we will discount those ... Leaving us with 14 outfield players and 1 goalkeeper who are going to be challenging for the ball coming in. The ball was then whipped in with pace and for a split second that ball could have been going front post, far post, down the keepers throat, penalty spot or the edge of the area with any of the 15 players mentioned going for this ball coming in at pace.

For a split second David Luiz loses his marker and goes up for a header against 2 players making static jumps rather than on the move. If you watch the clip again Raul makes a static jump but not straight up, he actually jumps almost backwards and to his right away from goal (where the ball is going). Now David Luiz has eyes on the ball and where he is headed, aswell as what is where he intends his head to be very shortly. Now Raul Jiminez actually directs his head backwards and to the right with no way of knowing what is there, a blind jump and movement of his head.

Now had David Luiz got there first and Raul caught him ... Would we be screaming blue murder at how reckless Raul was jumping in the direction he did completely blind? No we wouldn't because going up for a header at a corner has a very small element of risk (14 players all with the intention of moving their head towards the ball if it comes in their vicinity) and one which unfortunately happened on Sunday with terrible consequences.

Accidents happen ... And had it been the other way around and it was David Luiz lying in a hospital bed we would not be arguing that Raul should have been sent off.

So my response to your Elokobi video is that I think he was unfortunate to be sent off but could see why. A header in the middle of the pitch between 2 players with a floated ball is a very different outcome to 14 players all within 10 years of each other and the ball being whipped in at pace.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

You don't half waffle on about the same point.

So I will indulge you.

In the Elokobi one it is in a very open part of the pitch ... There are only 2 players going for this ball, 1 of which was never going to get there before the other. The ball was floated forward and was quite evident who was going to get to the ball first ... Elokobi thought he could get to the ball first but was wrong and it was pretty obvious he wasn't going to. He went flying into the back of the Doncaster player, not just with his head but with his whole body.

I actually think he was a bit unlucky to get a red for it but could understand why. The club would never have bothered appealing as it's subjective and it would never ever be overturned.

In the incident from Sunday there were 16 outfield players in the 18 yard box ... 2 of these players were right on the edge by where the corner was taken so we will discount those ... Leaving us with 14 outfield players and 1 goalkeeper who are going to be challenging for the ball coming in. The ball was then whipped in with pace and for a split second that ball could have been going front post, far post, down the keepers throat, penalty spot or the edge of the area with any of the 15 players mentioned going for this ball coming in at pace.

For a split second David Luiz loses his marker and goes up for a header against 2 players making static jumps rather than on the move. If you watch the clip again Raul makes a static jump but not straight up, he actually jumps almost backwards and to his right away from goal (where the ball is going). Now David Luiz has eyes on the ball and where he is headed, aswell as what is where he intends his head to be very shortly. Now Raul Jiminez actually directs his head backwards and to the right with no way of knowing what is there, a blind jump and movement of his head.

Now had David Luiz got there first and Raul caught him ... Would we be screaming blue murder at how reckless Raul was jumping in the direction he did completely blind? No we wouldn't because going up for a header at a corner has a very small element of risk (14 players all with the intention of moving their head towards the ball if it comes in their vicinity) and one which unfortunately happened on Sunday with terrible consequences.

Accidents happen ... And had it been the other way around and it was David Luiz lying in a hospital bed we would not be arguing that Raul should have been sent off.

So my response to your Elokobi video is that I think he was unfortunate to be sent off but could see why. A header in the middle of the pitch between 2 players with a floated ball is a very different outcome to 14 players all within 10 years of each other and the ball being whipped in at pace.

On the Elokobi video, if you can be bothered, pause it at 00:59. Elokobi is a fraction of a second late, just like Luiz. It's hardly any different in terms of timing to Luiz on Jimenez. To say it's 'pretty obvious' Elokobi would get to the ball second and Luiz didn't know is just completely wrong and key to this argument. Go back, pause the video and see. Elokobi's arm is on the Doncaster players back as he flicks the ball on, showing just how close they are. Also, Luiz crashed his whole body into Raul as well, it wasn't just his head.

I agree that Luiz was totally focused on the ball, I've not said any different. In fact, nor have most. The vast majority accept it was not deliberate. But, so was Elokobi, it was a genuine attempt and late.

As I've previously said, this 'if, if, if' is rubbish as well. I'm saying Luiz would not be seriously injured in that instance. Just like Elokobi wouldn't have been seriously injured because he is the one going through with all the force.

 

[BarryM]

How rude.

You've been waffling on as well, and this is the first detailed post you've put. Unfortunately I think it's an absolute load of rubbish, well most of it.

The part of the pitch is irrelevant to whether an offence takes place. As linked, Lewis Dunk was sent off for a two-footed lunge in the box when there are 5-10 players going for the ball. By your logic that may not be a red. In reality, a two-footed, late tackle is a two-footed, late tackle. It's a red in a crowded box. It's a red on the halfway line. Just like this is. You can't make allowances for a part of the pitch. 'Right lads, we're in the box, anything goes'.

Anyway, this is the main point. On the Elokobi video, if you can be bothered, pause it at 00:59. Elokobi is a fraction of a second late, just like Luiz. It's hardly any different in terms of timing to Luiz on Jimenez. To say it's 'pretty obvious' Elokobi would get to the ball second and Luiz didn't know is just completely wrong and key to this argument. Go back, pause the video and see. Elokobi's arm is on the Doncaster players back as he flicks the ball on, showing just how close they are. Also, Luiz crashed his whole body into Raul as well, it wasn't just his head.

I agree that Luiz was totally focused on the ball, I've not said any different. In fact, nor have most. The vast majority accept it was not deliberate. But, so was Elokobi, it was a genuine attempt and late.

As I've previously said, this 'if, if, if' is rubbish as well. I'm saying Luiz would not be seriously injured in that instance. Just like Elokobi wouldn't have been seriously injured because he is the one going through with all the force.

I will simply refer to the bold highlighted part.

A two footed tackle, whether late, early or just on time is an illegal action. Going up for a header is not.

I stopped reading after that as your argument fell down there.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

I will simply refer to the bold highlighted part.

A two footed tackle, whether late, early or just on time is an illegal action. Going up for a header is not.

I stopped reading after that as your argument fell down there.

You definitely didn't stop reading, you just don't want to answer the point.

I took that bit out as I didn't want you to go off topic but you saw it too quickly so my fault even if you are saying one thing is a foul in one place of the pitch but not another, but I don't want to go down that road.

 

[BarryM]

You definitely didn't stop reading, you just don't want to answer the point.

I took that bit out as I didn't want you to go off topic but you saw it too quickly so my fault even if you are saying one thing is a foul in one place of the pitch but not another, but I don't want to go down that road.

I did not say it wasn't a foul in separate parts of the pitch.

What I said are the 2 circumstances are very different. The ball is floated into an area where there is one player within 10 yards of the where the ball will land (until Big George makes an appearance).

The corner there are 14 outfield players and one goalkeeper all within 10 yards of each other and the ball is being whipped in at pace.

Don't embarrass yourself by saying the 2 circumstances are the same.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

I did not say it wasn't a foul in separate parts of the pitch.

What I said are the 2 circumstances are very different. The ball is floated into an area where there is one player within 10 yards of the where the ball will land (until Big George makes an appearance).

The corner there are 14 outfield players and one goalkeeper all within 10 yards of each other and the ball is being whipped in at pace.

Don't embarrass yourself by saying the 2 circumstances are the same.

Elokobi made an honest attempt for the ball.
Luiz made an honest attempt for the ball.

Elokobi missed the ball and was a fraction late.
Luiz missed the ball and was a fraction late.

Elokobi clattered into the player, including hitting his head.
Luiz clattered into the player, including hitting his head.

Elokobi was shown a red card for dangerous play.
Luiz......

 

[Deleted member 4152]

Poor old wolves. The officials don't like us, they don't want us top 6, it's a conspiracy, var is against us, no fans effects us most and David Luiz is a criminal. May as well as this situation to the other excuses we bang on about

To be fair. Marriner doesn’t like us.
I have seen a youtube post from an arsenal account that is slating the ref for fist bumping neves. I bet they didn’t slate the ref when he did it with an arsenal player in the game that fabregas nearly cut ward in half with no booking tho.
Everyone moans about the officials. But it is a fact marriner doesn’t like us.

 

[Deleted member 4152]

the ref saw a clash of heads...he could not possibly have issued a red based on what he saw ...accidental clash of heads.

VAR only review for clear and obvious error...given the spirited discussion here it was not a clear and obvious error.

Having seen many replays it becomes clear it was Luiz fault as he was clearly late and Raul had cleared the ball. It was reckless but I can’t criticize the ref and VAr for the decision. It wasn’t clear at the time what had happened and in 50 years of watching football I don’t think I have ever seen a sending off for an aerial clash of heads That was accidental.

Var only review for clear and obvious error

You sure about that?

 

[BarryM]

To be fair. Marriner doesn’t like us.
I have seen a youtube post from an arsenal account that is slating the ref for fist bumping neves. I bet they didn’t slate the ref when he did it with an arsenal player in the game that fabregas nearly cut ward in half with no booking tho.
Everyone moans about the officials. But it is a fact marriner doesn’t like us.

To be fair Arsenal fans and YouTube aren't the best thing for research purposes lol!

 

[Deleted member 5910]

Disagree that's fine. As I said, you're in a tiny tiny group who do. Reflect on that

Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[BarryM]

Elokobi made an honest attempt for the ball.
Luiz made an honest attempt for the ball.

Elokobi missed the ball and was a fraction late.
Luiz missed the ball and was a fraction late.

Elokobi clattered into the player, including hitting his head.
Luiz clattered into the player, including hitting his head.

Elokobi was shown a red card for dangerous play.
Luiz......

In the last hour you have tried to accuse David Luiz as leading with his arm (straw clutching)

And resorted to using a two footed late tackle as evidence towards your point. Not realising a two footed early tackle is just as illegal as the late one ... Or one that is even on time

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

In the last hour you have tried to accuse David Luiz as leading with his arm (straw clutching)

And resorted to using a two footed late tackle as evidence towards your point. Not realising a two footed early tackle is just as illegal as the late one ... Or one that is even on time

His fingers were in Rauls mouth...

I didn’t say he elbowed him, or did anything wrong with his arm though. I’ll be clear, he didn’t.

I mustn’t have made my other point clear. I’m saying an offence is an offence wherever it takes place.

But all of this is deflecting. You’ve replied that above message to this;

“
Elokobi made an honest attempt for the ball.
Luiz made an honest attempt for the ball.

Elokobi missed the ball and was a fraction late.
Luiz missed the ball and was a fraction late.

Elokobi clattered into the player, including hitting his head.
Luiz clattered into the player, including hitting his head.”

Not at all relevant what you put, was it? You didn’t explain how the above bit was wrong.

 

[WickedWolfie]

You can debate football rules all you want. Don't be too surprised if the Courts have a rather different view....

 

[Incognito]

Only David Luiz knows the truth. Fact is, he had no chance of getting the ball, from where he started. He was extremely late with his challenge and that is reason enough to be deemed dangerous play. Red card, no two ways about it. Dont even want to contemplate anything more than that. Like I said, only he knows his intentions in that moment. Thank god it looks like Raul will be OK but this could have gone south.

 

[Hot Fuss]

You can debate football rules all you want. Don't be too surprised if the Courts have a rather different view....

Who do you think the courts will agree with? (If it goes to court, which it clearly won’t).

 

[Hot Fuss]

Only David Luiz knows the truth. Fact is, he had no chance of getting the ball, from where he started. He was extremely late with his challenge and that is reason enough to be deemed dangerous play. Red card, no two ways about it. Dont even want to contemplate anything more than that. Like I said, only he knows his intentions in that moment. Thank god it looks like Raul will be OK but this could have gone south.

“Extremely late” ffs

 

[NewarkWolf]

That's completely wrong though.

If a player flew in two-footed and completely missed the player, he doesn't usually get sent off. If they get the opponents leg, they're off.

If Pickford throws himself out at VVD, doesn't catch him, he doesn't get sent off.
Mane will have controlled a ball like he tried at Man City 100 times. That day, he caught Ederson, he was sent off.

Similarly, Matt Doherty didn't even get a free-kick when he nearly had his head kicked off at Burnley. Not even a foul (it should have been IMO), because there was no contact.

You have to judge things differently, and in this case there was contact so you judge accordingly.

You really don't get this. You're saying that the action of flying in to head the ball not knowing he 'wouldn't' hit Raul square on was reckless, in hitting him, not intentionally or is a straight red. You can't say it's a reckless motion and dangerous play just because he made unintentional impact with Raul, it's the same thing even if he didn't. Love how you believe that a red is only warranted to be shown for the exact same peice of play only of another person is seriously injured!

You can't keep saying that the run, the lack of control, the recklessness of the player was dreadful just because of what the outcome was.

If I'm running towards you with a hammer to smash you're face in I'm out of control and dangerous. Regardless of whether I make contact with you in going to get ****ed for being a crazy ****. You're saying I only would if I hit you.

It was an accident!! Two players going for a ball, one standing his ground marking a zone and one attacking the ball, all of this is acceptable but in this occasion a bad accident happened

 

[QB Wolf]

Bottom line for all the gold tinted spectacle wearers. If it had been the other way round and Raul was attacking the ball and Luiz defending it, and Luiz had the fractured skull.......would any of you be saying that Raul was reckless? I think not

Yeah of course I would, but to be fair, Raul isn’t well known for inexplicable brain farts like Luiz is.

 

[BarryM]

Yeah of course I would, but to be fair, Raul isn’t well known for inexplicable brain farts like Luiz is.

Has David Luiz got history of knocking anyone unconscious during a football match?

Has Raul Jiminez got history of knocking anyone unconscious during a football match?