Sue the PGMOL

[The Fat Bloke]

The **** show that is the PGMOL, are a private business contracted by the Premier League.

With each place in the league table worth considerable millions in prize money surely it would be a good call for Wolves to sue them at the end of the season for lost revenue, due to GROSS NEGLIGENCE.

Not even considering if their errors cost us European money next season.

 

[old wittonian]

The **** show that is the PGMOL, are a private business contracted by the Premier League.

With each place in the league table worth considerable millions in prize money surely it would be a good call for Wolves to sue them at the end of the season for lost revenue, due to GROSS NEGLIGENCE.

Not even considering if their errors cost us European money next season.

I have often wondered if there is a clause in any agreement which might prevent this.
The PGMOL certainly need to be put on notice.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

In private, I think this should absolutely be the angle the club takes with PGMOL and their Premier League masters. As I’ve commented before, the amount of bias in their decisions, and their failure to correct this, despite frequent discussions with the club, potentially give the club grounds to argue PGMOL have shown gross negligence or wilful misconduct in their officiating of our games. If so, the club could reasonably seek damages amounting to the financial losses resulting from repeated poor decisions impacting the club. A successful case would have massive implications, and could potentially open a floodgate of similar cases by other clubs who felt they’ve been unfairly treated by referees.

 

[Jack Russell]

In private, I think this should absolutely be the angle the club takes with PGMOL and their Premier League masters. As I’ve commented before, the amount of bias in their decisions, and their failure to correct this, despite frequent discussions with the club, potentially give the club grounds to argue PGMOL have shown gross negligence or wilful misconduct in their officiating of our games. If so, the club could reasonably seek damages amounting to the financial losses resulting from repeated poor decisions impacting the club. A successful case would have massive implications, and could potentially open a floodgate of similar cases by other clubs who felt they’ve been unfairly treated by referees.

It might also make PGMOL finally take their responsibilities seriously instead of their current cavalier approach.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

The way to go as I said on the other thread.

 

[arctic rime]

Like it yes

 

[old wittonian]

In private, I think this should absolutely be the angle the club takes with PGMOL and their Premier League masters. As I’ve commented before, the amount of bias in their decisions, and their failure to correct this, despite frequent discussions with the club, potentially give the club grounds to argue PGMOL have shown gross negligence or wilful misconduct in their officiating of our games. If so, the club could reasonably seek damages amounting to the financial losses resulting from repeated poor decisions impacting the club. A successful case would have massive implications, and could potentially open a floodgate of similar cases by other clubs who felt they’ve been unfairly treated by referees.

And it might bankrupt the PGMOL.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

It might also make PGMOL take their responsibilities seriously instead of the current cavalier approach.

Which is exactly the reason for making such a warning in private. I doubt the owners of some other PL clubs have been shy in making comparable private threats to PGMOL or the Premier League. It might explain the behaviour of these organisations…

 

[Jack Russell]

The contempt for PGMOL is building all the time. Time for them to take serious notice of the potential tsunami heading their way?

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Granted I'm not a lawyer, but I think this idea is ridiculous.

I mean for one thing where is the line between a bad call, incompetence, and negligence? If you're going to sue the PGMOL, then I think you're going to have to prove not that we've had some bad calls against us, but that they failed to train their refs (who I think don't actually count as their employees, but let's park that) sufficiently. Everyone knows ref make mistakes, but you're going up have to convince a judge that those mistakes are down to negligence on the part of the PGMOL.

Then, just imagine where this might end. How about Sheff U sue for their relegation because goal line technology let them down? We might lose a few million in place money from a series of decisions, but one mistake possibly cost them £100m.

It's just a ridiculous idea in my humble and non-legal opinion.

 

[Monk]

Here's a thought just imagine this was happening to an individual football (soccer) team in the USA which is as we know is the suing capital of the world - lawyers over there would be rubbing their hands together given what's happening to us. I would imagine VAR would disappear from their game quicker than a rat up a drainpipe as he powers at be would be very worried they could lose.

 

[MolineuxMixer]

A right bunch of PiGMOLs!

 

[old wittonian]

Granted I'm not a lawyer, but I think this idea is ridiculous.

I mean for one thing where is the line between a bad call, incompetence, and negligence? If you're going to sue the PGMOL, then I think you're going to have to prove not that we've had some bad calls against us, but that they failed to train their refs (who I think don't actually count as their employees, but let's park that) sufficiently. Everyone knows ref make mistakes, but you're going up have to convince a judge that those mistakes are down to negligence on the part of the PGMOL.

Then, just imagine where this might end. How about Sheff U sue for their relegation because goal line technology let them down? We might lose a few million in place money from a series of decisions, but one mistake possibly cost them £100m.

It's just a ridiculous idea in my humble and non-legal opinion.

They would likely seek to show it was systematic and endemic.

 

[WickedWolfie]

The **** show that is the PGMOL, are a private business contracted by the Premier League.

With each place in the league table worth considerable millions in prize money surely it would be a good call for Wolves to sue them at the end of the season for lost revenue, due to GROSS NEGLIGENCE.

Not even considering if their errors cost us European money next season.

The interesting question is whether Wolves or any club have the necessary standing to take such legal action. PGMOL has a contractual relationship with the PL (and indeed the EFL) for the provision of services. They have no such relationship with Wolves or any club. I fear that only the contracting leagues, as the contractual customer, could bring any such legal action based on the adequacy/quality of the services provided. Which of course they never will.

 

[glorybox]

I imagine that all clubs have signed an agreement which effectively precludes this from over being able to happen.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

The interesting question is whether Wolves or any club have the necessary standing to take such legal action. PGMOL has a contractual relationship with the PL (and indeed the EFL) for the provision of services. They have no such relationship with Wolves or any club. I fear that only the contracting leagues, as the contractual customer, could bring any such legal action based on the adequacy/quality of the services provided. Which of course they never will.

Interesting question. Well I might suggest that Wolves take the action against the Premier League, who have sole source contracted PGMOL to provide officiating services, with such services failing to pass a test of impartiality and competence sufficient to ensure the league meets its own defined standards of competition. Since PGMOL have been shown to have repeatedly failed to deliver competent and impartial officiating, and the Premier League, having had such deficiencies brought to their attention, have failed to act to address this, then they are themselves liable for the resulting losses.

Or some such approach.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

Granted I'm not a lawyer, but I think this idea is ridiculous.

I mean for one thing where is the line between a bad call, incompetence, and negligence? If you're going to sue the PGMOL, then I think you're going to have to prove not that we've had some bad calls against us, but that they failed to train their refs (who I think don't actually count as their employees, but let's park that) sufficiently. Everyone knows ref make mistakes, but you're going up have to convince a judge that those mistakes are down to negligence on the part of the PGMOL.

Then, just imagine where this might end. How about Sheff U sue for their relegation because goal line technology let them down? We might lose a few million in place money from a series of decisions, but one mistake possibly cost them £100m.

It's just a ridiculous idea in my humble and non-legal opinion.

Absolutely bang on. What would be the charge and how are you going to prove it in a court of law? The only way of screwing the PGMOL would be gathering conclusive evidence that (for example) the referees they employ are on the take from betting syndicates or something similar to fix results or other aspects of games. Decisions on the pitch are just that. Proving bias is an impossibility however much you suspect it. Dream on.

 

[WickedWolfie]

I imagine that all clubs have signed an agreement which effectively precludes this from over being able to happen.

That would be unsurprising.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Interesting question. Well I might suggest that Wolves take the action against the Premier League, who have sole source contracted PGMOL to provide officiating services, with such services failing to pass a test of impartiality and competence sufficient to ensure the league meets its own defined standards of competition. Since PGMOL have been shown to have repeatedly failed to deliver competent and impartial officiating, and the Premier League, having had such deficiencies brought to their attention, have failed to act to address this, then they are themselves liable for the resulting losses.

Or some such approach.

That would seem to be probably the only viable approach.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

That would seem to be probably the only viable approach.

It would be an extremely high risk strategy for a club like Wolves, but even investigating its viability and making this known to the Premier League, given the potential risks it might pose to the league, might be sufficient to spark them into action to improve the quality, transparency and impartiality of officiating, which is clearly what we all want.

Of course, with the appointment of the new independent regulator, an alternative channel to raise such concerns might arise…

 

[Big Saft Kid]

And to add insult to injury, Salisbury and Atwell have not been demoted next weekend. Both selected for PL duty

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

I think where Club's have had an apology from PGMOL that is an admittance of negligence on behalf of their employees. It is clear and unequivocal. At its simplest at the end of the season a Club will know how many points they have lost by wrong decisions and this equates to a lower position in the league table and this again equates to lost funding. I think legally you can conflate the 2, eg 6 accepted wrong decisions by refs/VAR have cost a club £10 mil by finishing say12th rather than 8th. I know there are loads of legal ramifications and reasons not to do it but I think making it known that Wolves (along with other affected Clubs) are taking legal advice on where they stand will send shock waves through the football world. It may not change anything but equally it may start the ball rolling towards the scrapping of VAR.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I think where Club's have had an apology from PGMOL that is an admittance of negligence on behalf of their employees. It is clear and unequivocal. At its simplest at the end of the season a Club will know how many points they have lost by wrong decisions and this equates to a lower position in the league table and this again equates to lost funding. I think legally you can conflate the 2, eg 6 accepted wrong decisions by refs/VAR have cost a club £10 mil by finishing say12th rather than 8th. I know there are loads of legal ramifications and reasons not to do it but I think making it known that Wolves (along with other affected Clubs) are taking legal advice on where they stand will send shock waves through the football world. It may not change anything but equally it may start the ball rolling towards the scrapping of VAR.

Just stop at the first sentence. An apology for a mistake is not an admittance of negligence.

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

Just stop at the first sentence. An apology for a mistake is not an admittance of negligence.

I did say there are 'legal ramifications' and one of them would be whether the issue of an apology for a mistake legally can be argued as negligence. I don't know but just demoting refs for 1 week is just insulting. I just think consulting a lawyer would be an interesting step to take.

 

[old wittonian]

Just stop at the first sentence. An apology for a mistake is not an admittance of negligence.

Not even repeated apologies?
Webb would be one of the main witnesses for the Plaintiff.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Could happen…

 

[Scallywolf]

Just stop at the first sentence. An apology for a mistake is not an admittance of negligence.

It’s not just one apology though is it!

We apparently have had several apologies already this season.

That, to me is negligence of highly trained and well paid individuals failing in their duties.

Oh, won’t mention incompetence as well!

 

[Sammy Chungs Tracksuit]

For any individual crap subjective decision its not really possible to sue PGMOL. I do wonder if there is the possibility to sue if the crap decisions are statistically virtually impossible to be random because they are so one sided.

We have had a load of crap decisions this season but lets not forget Lopetegui's metaphorical book of crap decisions from last season.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

For any individual crap subjective decision its not really possible to sue PGMOL. I do wonder if there is the possibility to sue if the crap decisions are statistically virtually impossible to be random because they are so one sided.

We have had a load of crap decisions this season but lets not forget Lopetegui's metaphorical book of crap decisions from last season.

I’d say it’s probably already worse than last season. The decisions are getting more and more pathetic game on game. Away from home mostly. Our home crowd seems to intimidate a few

 

[WickedWolfie]

I’d say it’s probably already worse than last season. The decisions are getting worse

It wasn't literally every game last season

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

It wasn't literally every game last season

That Leeds game riled us up for the fight. Now as you say near enough every 2 games we get screwed. Bias and corruption all because of our Chinese ownership

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Absolutely bang on. What would be the charge and how are you going to prove it in a court of law? The only way of screwing the PGMOL would be gathering conclusive evidence that (for example) the referees they employ are on the take from betting syndicates or something similar to fix results or other aspects of games. Decisions on the pitch are just that. Proving bias is an impossibility however much you suspect it. Dream on.

The charge wouldn’t necessarily be one of corruption or conspiracy, but rather of gross negligence or wilful misconduct. Such clauses are typical in most contracts, and are designed to allow for claims for damages in scenarios where a person or organisation is damaged by someone or organisation who “grossly” fails in their responsibilities, and/or those responsible wilfully ignore the issue causing damage despite knowing it exists. It’s more than simple negligence.

Bias in officiating can be proven by way of objective outcomes, which if you look at the number of errors negatively impacting Wolves, is what we’ve seen so far this season. Games in the league are meant to be officiated in a fair and impartial manner, and the fact that there have been serious errors by multiple referees impacting Wolves in at least 4 of 13 games this season, and this has been brought to the attention of those leading the organisation, could potentially be argued as symptomatic of GN or WM on behalf of PGMOL and their employers EPL.

A case of simple negligence, might by contrast be a single referee who makes a few mistakes, randomly impacting different clubs but without seriously affecting any of them, and who has been punished/retrained after his/her mistakes. What we’ve seen this season is clearly more than just that.

Nobody is suggesting this would be an easy case to prove, but if it were deemed strong enough to pursue by an appropriately qualified barrister, then just the threat of where it could lead in terms of damages and further claims, would likely prompt action by the EPL and PGMOL.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Just stop at the first sentence. An apology for a mistake is not an admittance of negligence.

No, but it’s an acknowledgment that a mistake was made and is known to the management of the organisation. If similar mistakes then continue to be made, and they do not take adequate action to prevent them, then the leadership of the organisation is putting themselves at risk of a claim for damages due to wilfully ignoring the errors being made by their organisation. I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve been involved in a few instances where organisations have threatened to bring cases of GNWM in order to seek leverage.

 

[Jawwfc]

There must be some sort of clause what would prevent it... Sheffield United were relegated and Villa stayed up due to the failure of technology (not VAR though) Villa are now challenging for Europe and Sheffield United are yo yoing it seems.

Our decisions have been bad but that failure cost a lot more than ours did.

I just wish they'd do away with the old guard, get rid of Webb ( it's far worse under him ) get some top foreign refs in, get some ex pros on board and even someone no nonsense like Warnock to oversee it, I also feel referring in the PL is a very good career now gone are the days of Refs having normal jobs in the week and once the legs go they can haunt the VAR room for years after no doubt picking up a very good wage.

 

[old wittonian]

And to add insult to injury, Salisbury and Atwell have not been demoted next weekend. Both selected for PL duty

And Attwell, he of the phantom goal, has got Liverpool v Fulham.

 

[old wittonian]

And to add insult to injury, Salisbury and Atwell have not been demoted next weekend. Both selected for PL duty

Perhaps the PGMOL has taken legal advice and decided the prudent course is to keep them in the EPL.
Maybe, as Fulham are playing one of the Sky6, they want to balance out Fulham's season.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

The basic problem is that nobody knows how many points bad decisions have cost Wolves (if any). That is an unknowable thing by definition. If, say the penalty had not been given against Semedo, all we know is that there would not have been a Fulham penalty at that point, so they would not have scored off it. But the game would subsequently have proceeded in a way that we cannot know, because it is a hypothetical world that never came into being. Same with all the other bad decisions: if they had not been made, the play after them would have been different.

What can be reasonably said, though, is that if Wolves were to end the season with, say, 10 apologies from Webb about wrong refereeing decisions, then that is evidence of negligence in the correct training of referees on the part of the PGMOL. And if Wolves were to get 10 apologies and nobody else gets more than 2 or 3 that would constitute prima facie evidence that Wolves were being treated unfairly compared with other teams, i.e. that there was evidence of intentional mistreatment of Wolves by the match officials as a group. I doubt very much if that will be allowed to happen because Webb isn't stupid -- he will stop apologising before the number of apologies to Wolves begins to look disproportionate (and like a conspiracy). In fact that may be already be happening -- I don't think we got an apology from Webb for the latest omni-shambles at Fulham, did we? We should have had 4 apologies for bad mistakes in that game alone: two for the two penalties wrongly awarded against us, one for the failure to red card a head butt, and another (failure to give a 2nd yellow) for denying Hwang a goal-scoring opportunity.

 

[WickedWolfie]

The basic problem is that nobody knows how many points bad decisions have cost Wolves (if any). That is an unknowable thing by definition. If, say the penalty had not been given against Semedo, all we know is that there would not have been a Fulham penalty at that point, so they would not have scored off it. But the game would subsequently have proceeded in a way that we cannot know, because it is a hypothetical world that never came into being. Same with all the other bad decisions: if they had not been made, the play after them would have been different.

What can be reasonably said, though, is that if Wolves were to end the season with, say, 10 apologies from Webb about wrong refereeing decisions, then that is evidence of negligence in the correct training of referees on the part of the PGMOL. And if Wolves were to get 10 apologies and nobody else gets more than 2 or 3 that would constitute prima facie evidence that Wolves were being treated unfairly compared with other teams, i.e. that there was evidence of intentional mistreatment of Wolves by the match officials as a group. I doubt very much if that will be allowed to happen because Webb isn't stupid -- he will stop apologising before the number of apologies to Wolves begins to look disproportionate (and like a conspiracy). In fact that may be already be happening -- I don't think we got an apology from Webb for the latest omni-shambles at Fulham, did we? We should have had 4 apologies for bad mistakes in that game alone: two for the two penalties wrongly awarded against us, one for the failure to red card a head butt, and another (failure to give a 2nd yellow) for denying Hwang a goal-scoring opportunity.

A very well thought through contribution. Well worth reading.

 

[old wittonian]

The basic problem is that nobody knows how many points bad decisions have cost Wolves (if any). That is an unknowable thing by definition. If, say the penalty had not been given against Semedo, all we know is that there would not have been a Fulham penalty at that point, so they would not have scored off it. But the game would subsequently have proceeded in a way that we cannot know, because it is a hypothetical world that never came into being. Same with all the other bad decisions: if they had not been made, the play after them would have been different.

What can be reasonably said, though, is that if Wolves were to end the season with, say, 10 apologies from Webb about wrong refereeing decisions, then that is evidence of negligence in the correct training of referees on the part of the PGMOL. And if Wolves were to get 10 apologies and nobody else gets more than 2 or 3 that would constitute prima facie evidence that Wolves were being treated unfairly compared with other teams, i.e. that there was evidence of intentional mistreatment of Wolves by the match officials as a group. I doubt very much if that will be allowed to happen because Webb isn't stupid -- he will stop apologising before the number of apologies to Wolves begins to look disproportionate (and like a conspiracy). In fact that may be already be happening -- I don't think we got an apology from Webb for the latest omni-shambles at Fulham, did we? We should have had 4 apologies for bad mistakes in that game alone: two for the two penalties wrongly awarded against us, one for the failure to red card a head butt, and another (failure to give a 2nd yellow) for denying Hwang a goal-scoring opportunity.

I have a strong feeling Webb has been legally advised to issue no more apologies.
Don't forget we could also enjoin individuals in any legal action.
When I acted as a consultant to a number of large organisations I took our liability insurance as did the company who paid me a salary and named me in its cover.

 

[wolvesjoe]

Statistical anomalies have to be explained, and this would be the basis of any legal case.
The amount of mistaken calls to Wolves' detriment, represents a significant statistical anomaly, over and above the
run of the mill unreliability of VAR.

The statistical anomaly sits along with the actual failure of VAR to act according to its own principles. (This would be one of the strongest
aspects of a case....how did VAR actually fail to act against player simulation/Onana's foul/the clear deflection of the
ball from Gomes' foot to his arm. )

These two strands of argument form, in my view, form the basis of a legal case against PGMOL for not providing a
reliable service within reasonable expectations, a failure which has had profound implications for WWFC. An argument
can also be made that the failure to provide a reliable service within reasonable expectations undermines the competitive
integrity of the PL, with longterm effects on its public appeal.

These two strands of argument also form the basis of a call for a criminal investigation into the
possibility of corruption within the application of VAR.

Unfortunately, I can also see a possible defence specific to Wolves' situation, which, in the interests of objectivity, should
be raised. Namely that Wolves' particular style of play is responsible for the exaggerated amount of very close penalty area
calls. Wolves consistently play a low block, which involves packing the area with defending players to make it difficult for the
attacking team to make a clear shot. This creates situations frequently, where players collide/become entangled/richochets occur and so on. VAR is then faced with very difficult decisions to make, a difficulty compounded by the clear and obvious criteria, which tends to lead VAR to back up the on-field decision.

That would seem to me quite a strong legal defence.