Goalscorers

[WolfLing]

Though the issue isn't defending deep and losing 1-0 to Liverpool. The issue is not scoring against the likes of Burnley and Norwich. And Brentford. And even when playing well and dominating (eg West Ham/Everton/Man U) and creating chances, it's still a painful struggle to actually score.

What was the similar map v Burnley and Norwich? West Ham? I don't know, but I'd guess it was 10 yards further up and still we struggle to create and score.

These are the Burnley, Norwich and Brentford games.



Yes, some of it might be further forward, but the common theme is Coady is always our deepest player and our central midfield is always bunched up in and around the centre circle. It's a complete waste against these teams. I love Coady, but it's not him holding us back, it's his position.

Compare that to the Liverpool graphic and Fabinho's position. Fabinho pushing into the centre circle pushes their central midfield on and in turn their forwards.

The Brentford one made me laugh. We were literally on top of each other and all over the place!

 

[Contrarian]

I just want to see us try the back four.

We did several times last season. Against Albion, at home, for example. I would rather a 0-0 or 1-0 win against the lower clubs than a "thrilling for neutral" 3-2 defeat. Though TBF, that match was more a comedy of errors than actual free flowing football. We tried it earlier in the season and sure enough, did get forward more. Didn't turn in any more points or goals than the current system, though.
Which is why we went back to 3-4-3.

I'm not against the idea of the back 4. I just think it needs a major change of personnel. And the players who would make it work, would also make a 3-4-3 more attacking and positive!

I think we have a variation on "The loanee/injured player will save us". Only it's become a formation we don't use will save us. Mark my words, we'd have 3 or 4 matches with 4 at the back before people are demanding we go back to 3-4-3 because "it's what we know and we need to stop leaking goals"! It's whats happened every time we tried it before.

Also, we're 8th!!!!! Do we even *have* a crises than needs radical fixes? Some minor tweaks, yes.

I saw a clip of Podence's goal at Arsenal the other day and Don Goodman was on comms. I've found it, listen:

Don Goodman?Abandon hope all ye who venture past this point. He does 5 minutes swotting on the web before a match, then repeats what he just read on the Mix. Wasn't that Arsenal match the only one we have ever won with 4 at the back? Goodman is an agent for the Boggies, for sure.

I do agree that tactically something needs changing. Not sure that tinkering with the defensive side is that change. That West Ham match all of 16 days ago. Everybody agreed, great performance, one of the best full 90 minutes we've managed in 18 months. Against a side that has recently beaten 2 of the unbeatable top 3, none the less. Who started in the front 3 and what's changed since? Similarly the Everton match previously.

It's the link between the centre 2 and wing backs to the front 3 that is breaking down. Never mind stop the back 3, how about stop using a front 3 and switch to a front 2? That will not weaken the defence and it couldn't exactly make our goal scoring worse could it?

Either way, I think it's mostly personnel change needed. As has been pointed out, our wing backs have created way less than needed. It's also clear that our midfielders are way down the creativity lists, too. Playing 3 up front is wasteful when the ball isn't going to get to them. I'd switch to 3-5-2 and see how that goes before trying 4 at the back.

 

[Contrarian]

These are the Burnley, Norwich and Brentford games.

View attachment 25493

Yes, some of it might be further forward, but the common theme is Coady is always our deepest player and our central midfield is always bunched up in and around the centre circle. It's a complete waste against these teams. I love Coady, but it's not him holding us back, it's his position.

Compare that to the Liverpool graphic and Fabinho's position. Fabinho pushing into the centre circle pushes their central midfield on and in turn their forwards.

The Brentford one made me laugh. We were literally on top of each other and all over the place!

Thanks. It is interesting. Bruno must study all this stuff, too, surely? For me, the back 3 positions don't look that off. It's the midfield! And surely, what you've shown there isn't how a 3-4-3 is meant to work? It's a bit disturbing how both Norwich and Burnley forwards are more advanced than ours. It used to be that the centre 2 were babysitting the back 3. Those images make it look like the front 3 are having to go back and babysit the centre 2.

Surprised Hwang showed up actually on the pitch in the Burnley and Norwich ones.

 

[WolfLing]

Either way, I think it's mostly personnel change needed. As has been pointed out, our wing backs have created way less than needed. It's also clear that our midfielders are way down the creativity lists, too. Playing 3 up front is wasteful when the ball isn't going to get to them. I'd switch to 3-5-2 and see how that goes before trying 4 at the back.

I think this is the most likely thing this season, as we are unlikely to get the players we need to play a back 4 in January.

Podence or Trincao would probably be more useful to us behind a front 2 anyway as most of their success comes more centrally.

 

[WolfLing]

Thanks. It is interesting. Bruno must study all this stuff, too, surely?

They'll be all over it, but with better ideas of how to remedy it no doubt.

I think Bruno really wants Renato Sanches, which is probably part of that plan.

 

[TheConcourse]

Every club aside from Norwich has scored more goals than us.

Do I honestly believe we have the 19th best set of attackers in the league? I'm critical of us but I can't have that at all.

I think we're good going forward - on paper. So, it has to be system. Has to be. These players are capable of so much more and the only reason they aren't doing more has to be the system.

I noticed this comment from Klopp on Jota in the build-up to today's game.

"He makes the difference with his attitude. I am excited by his mix. People say he didn't score loads at Wolves but they had the most intense workload for offensive wingers. It cost him energy and he was young then. He's really interesting.""

That says it all. Our wingers don't play where every other winger plays. Why? Because we have to defend. Why do we have to defend? Because the current options need protection all the time.

Seriously, that's Klopp's view. It should wake a few people up.

Good post.

It’s been the elephant in the room for a couple of years now. It needs solving in January.

 

[Contrarian]

We could have Lewandowski, Haaland and Mbappe up front and we still wouldn’t be amongst the top scorers in the league because of the patterns of play and tempo really not being conducive to scoring a lot of goals regularly.

This is why I genuinely believe things will change attack-wise when we solidify what’s behind them. I know the defenders have been great but we need to be confident in defending higher and with less numbers joining them so deep.

The Lewandoski who's scored nearly 2 in 3 for Poland at international level? Haaland 12 goals in 15 matches for world beaters Norway?

I get your point, but you are stretching it so far, you broke it! While Lewandoski would score fewer for us than he does for Bayern, 100% guaranteed if we had him in our front 3 instead of any of them, we wouldn't even be having this conversation because he'd be on 7 or 8 goals already. Similar Haaland and Mbappe would have scored a few and created at least 2 or 3 tap ins that even Trincao couldn't miss. (though Adama wouldn't be anywhere near them because he never is).

Mind you, if we did have them, and weren't top by 10 points, there would still be complaints.

Trur, our overall team mentality is not bringing out the best in the forwards we have. But then they all also are more limited than any of the top strikers in Europe. And other than Raul, they are all *far* more limited.

Alternatively, you could put Traore, Raul and Hwang up front for Bayern and watch them lose their first title in 10+ years as the goals decline. Or switch Moutinho/Donk/Neves into their midfield (or Liverpools midfield) and watch the goals dry up as the link to the forwards is broken with misplaced/overhit passes and ponderous build up play.

If Man City, Bayern, Liverpool, Chelsea etc, thought that Neves had what it takes, the speed of thought and accuracy to create more goals for their already world class forwards, they would have bought him by now.

 

[Ernie the Wolf]

We did several times last season. Against Albion, at home, for example. I would rather a 0-0 or 1-0 win against the lower clubs than a "thrilling for neutral" 3-2 defeat. Though TBF, that match was more a comedy of errors than actual free flowing football. We tried it earlier in the season and sure enough, did get forward more. Didn't turn in any more points or goals than the current system, though.
Which is why we went back to 3-4-3.

I'm not against the idea of the back 4. I just think it needs a major change of personnel. And the players who would make it work, would also make a 3-4-3 more attacking and positive!

I think we have a variation on "The loanee/injured player will save us". Only it's become a formation we don't use will save us. Mark my words, we'd have 3 or 4 matches with 4 at the back before people are demanding we go back to 3-4-3 because "it's what we know and we need to stop leaking goals"! It's whats happened every time we tried it before.

Also, we're 8th!!!!! Do we even *have* a crises than needs radical fixes? Some minor tweaks, yes.



Don Goodman?Abandon hope all ye who venture past this point. He does 5 minutes swotting on the web before a match, then repeats what he just read on the Mix. Wasn't that Arsenal match the only one we have ever won with 4 at the back? Goodman is an agent for the Boggies, for sure.

I do agree that tactically something needs changing. Not sure that tinkering with the defensive side is that change. That West Ham match all of 16 days ago. Everybody agreed, great performance, one of the best full 90 minutes we've managed in 18 months. Against a side that has recently beaten 2 of the unbeatable top 3, none the less. Who started in the front 3 and what's changed since? Similarly the Everton match previously.

It's the link between the centre 2 and wing backs to the front 3 that is breaking down. Never mind stop the back 3, how about stop using a front 3 and switch to a front 2? That will not weaken the defence and it couldn't exactly make our goal scoring worse could it?

Either way, I think it's mostly personnel change needed. As has been pointed out, our wing backs have created way less than needed. It's also clear that our midfielders are way down the creativity lists, too. Playing 3 up front is wasteful when the ball isn't going to get to them. I'd switch to 3-5-2 and see how that goes before trying 4 at the back.

Great post.

 

[wwbug]

Not gonna score many when you're not creating any chances - system before players

What type of system overrides having only three midfielders who are all defensive ?
Neves, Moutinho and Dedoncker are players not systems.
And reading Klopps comments about how our attackers are asked to defend too much sapping their energy and stopping them from scoring. You have to wonder whether it is a player issue, in the sense that it means everybody on the pitch has to defend more than other teams, to cover our ponderous defenders.

 

[wwbug]

Watching MOTD 2 and seeing the money spent by Everton ,in the last three years ,it’s shows how difficult it is to recruit well.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

These are the Burnley, Norwich and Brentford games.

View attachment 25493

Yes, some of it might be further forward, but the common theme is Coady is always our deepest player and our central midfield is always bunched up in and around the centre circle. It's a complete waste against these teams. I love Coady, but it's not him holding us back, it's his position.

Compare that to the Liverpool graphic and Fabinho's position. Fabinho pushing into the centre circle pushes their central midfield on and in turn their forwards.

The Brentford one made me laugh. We were literally on top of each other and all over the place!

You've fallen for the average position trap.
Saiss came off and we were 4 at the back for the second half against Brentford. Explains the weird average positions. Trincao and Traore spent a good chunk as full backs when they went to ten men.

 

[Hoganstolemywife]

12 goals, 16 games. It's not very good. The attacking players are lucky that we Kilman, Coady and Saiss are having superb seasons, as that's relegation form in front of goal

 

[JOSWolf]

Very much hope we arent revisiting this thread after the game on Wednesday night. Lage needs to be a lot more positive at Brighton.