This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.

The blame game

Discussion in 'Molineux Mix Archive' started by The Pig, Feb 19, 2015.

  1. The Pig

    The Pig Senior Member

    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    It appears our recruitment policy is increasingly being called into question.

    So far we've had Saville, Rowe, Sagbo on loan who have all failed to cut the mustard and there's a question mark over VLP.

    Last year we acquired Clarke who completely bombed out and Jacobs who hasn't made the step-up to Championship level there are questions being asked about Kmac and Dicko at this level.

    So who's responsible for what especially this year appears to be poor recruitment dealings. Possible answers include:

    It's a transitional thing

    At the end of the day the club has made the transition from bomb squad to new squad and from League 1 to Championship give it another year in the Championship and the club will work better in terms of it's recruitment policy. Nothing to worry about

    Thelwell

    Thelwell is head of recruitment, hence the buck stops here, either Thelwell is identifying the wrong targets for KJ or not doing his homework on the targets KJ has identified. Whichever the way the buck stops with Thelwell.

    KJ

    Thelwell just rubber stamps KJ's targets, KJ is ultimately to blame he's found his level at league 1, bang average at the champ level and this is reflected in his player acquisitions.

    Morgan/Moxey

    Thelwell/KJ are constrained by the academy/money effectively all KJ/Thelwell dealings have been in the sub million bracket and constrained by the fact Morgan/Moxey don't want to spend, given their net spend over the last two years KJ/Thelwell are actually doing a good job given Morgan/Moxey constraints

    So which is it?
     
  2. QB Wolf

    QB Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    7,037
    Likes Received:
    2,477
    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2005
    There's no question mark over Van La Parra, his recent number of assists should put that to bed.

    Rowe has had injury problems, Saville is still young and has time on his side, Sagbo was a loan and a gamble that didn't come off.

    What are we blaming them for, we're meeting the season's objectives.
     
  3. WalsallWolf

    WalsallWolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    10,356
    Likes Received:
    2,017
    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2008
    You can't blame Morgan or the board for the fact the vast majority have proved to be no improvement on what we have, that's describing them in a kind way too. Particularly Clarke and Saville who both came for big fees, relatively speaking. You just can't and anyone that does is clearly doing so to suit there own agendas.
     
  4. WestChiltingtonwolf

    WestChiltingtonwolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    5,799
    Likes Received:
    26
    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2005
    No question mark over Dicko so far. MacDonald, was cheap and more than earned his cash in League 1. If he doesnt make it and we have to sell we'll more than cover our lossses. Jacobs (more so) and Clarke have been value for money. Jacobs in league 1, and Clarke as cover when we were short on strikers. Juries out on Rowe/Saville although you expect them to have made an impact as first-team signings. Loan strikers have been poor. Transition is a difficult thing. I think fans are under-estimating how low we sunk, what we could attract to get out of League 1 and what we can attract now.

    Alongside all of this we have had the O'Hara, Johnson, Sigardason (sp?), Margereitter (?), Foley etc. sideshow eating up wages and morale.

    Its a shame (some) people massively under-estimate the job Kenny has done so far.
     
  5. Sephiroth

    Sephiroth Has a lot to say

    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes Received:
    765
    Joined:
    May 4, 2006
    Surely if he's bang average in the championship, then that is where he has found his level? Clearly too good for League 1 and with this team not too far away from the playoffs, in which anything can happen.

    I think that now the bomb squad are finally gone, it could lift some restraints on what KJ could actually acquire and we may see higher calibre players from that.

    That said, I do not mind seeing academy players getting their chance and if we're honest, Hause, Iorfa, Price and Ebanks-Landell have all done more than OK.
     
  6. The Pig

    The Pig Senior Member

    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    The question is if our recruitment policy doesn't pan out going forward, assuming there is any recruitment and it's not just left in the hands of the academy, who is responsible. If we don't recruit and the academy doesn't come forth I see many years of stagnation especially if we lose the likes of Sako..
     
  7. Tring Wolf

    Tring Wolf MolMix Poster of the Season Winner 2011-2012 and r

    Messages:
    19,320
    Likes Received:
    9,617
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    It's tough one to answer really as I think there are a variety of issues, people and circumstances that have to be taken into account.

    The Bomb Squad and Wages
    When it comes to Finances, you can't simply ignore the fact that for much of 2014, we were paying out around £7.5m in wages to Johnson, Sigurdarson, Margreitter, Boukari, Doyle, O'Hara and Foley. Even with the parachure payments, that is still a frightening amount of money to be paying players who haven't played a game for us and must impact on our ability to compete at the top end of the transfer market.

    Obviously the 2M's deserve a huge amount of criticism for the double relegation that led to this situation but you can't dismiss it as a factor for this year's (in(activity). It may, unfortunately for KJ, be a case of 'once bitten, twice shy' when it comes to offering the bigger, longer-term contracts needed for a number of top targets, especially with the parachute payments running out.

    Away from the 'Bomb Squad', we also have the issue of apparently wanting a consistent pay structure for those in and around the first team. There are varying reports as to whose idea/preference that is but I don't necessarily have an issue with it, as long as that top bracket is competitive. Our latest 'big-money' transfer (Afobe) is said to be on £9k a week, whilst Rowe, Stearman and Edwards were all signed/re-signed on similar/slightly higher amounts. Does anyone have an idea as to how that compares to the average for the clubs chasing promotion from the Championship (and whether that is competitive)?

    My personal view is that I feel we will need to make the odd exception for those players who could possibly make the difference between promotion and stagnation (Sako being an example) but I can understand the general principle behind it.

    KJ/Thelwell
    This is a really tough one to assess as nobody really knows too much about the budget at their disposal and their respective levels of influence in the recruitment process.

    Our main targets in the Summer were Maguire, Wood/Bamford, RVLP and Rowe. We obviously secured two of those but circumstances/competition meant the we didn't get Maguire and Wood. Similarly, in January, we secured two of our main targets in Afobe and Kuszchak but missed out on Lingard, Charlie Mulgrew and Zyro (although he was seen as a potential replacement for Sako).

    Do I blame anyone for missing out on those targets? Not really as in the case of Maguire, he chose Premier League football. Similarly, Wood elected to stay and fight for his place after a series of circumstances gave him an unlikely opportunity for Leicester and Lingard elected to go to Derby. The only criticism I could possibly have towards to KJ and Thelwell is that they didn't appear to have a similar quality of alternative lined up for when those deals fell through (Sagbo etc).

    In their favour, I would argue that our KJ has the best hit/miss transfer ratio of any Wolves Manager in recent history, especially given his net spend, so his record so far is deserving of further, more significant backing. Which leads us to...

    Morgan/Moxey
    With Morgan, it does appear as if significant funds were available in the Summer (£1.5m for Maguire/Wood, £3m for Delort and £700k for Saville), with £2m spent on Afobe (which I believe was the second biggest deal for a Championship club in January). So even with the financial burden of the bomb squad and continued investment in the Academy, there is a decent (if not spectacular) degree of backing available for the Manager.

    Would I like the Owner to put more money in and have a real go for promotion? Absolutely. Is he likely to given our plan to be self-sufficient? Probably Not. If you're reading this Steve. Go on, roll the dice in the Summer. I dare you.

    As for Moxey, well I guess he has to take some accountability for certain deals not getting over the line, especially given his reptuation for being an excellent negotiator. He also has influence over the overall strategy (which as said earlier led to a number of these problems) and presumably has some say in the 'wage parity argument'.

    Other Circumstances
    The changing face of football and finances means that we are competing with more clubs for potential targets than we did in previous years. For example, there is no way that Bournemouth would have been spending the money they did on Callum Wilson and a few others without the backing of a hugely rich Russian who, unlike our Owner, is prepared to invest more of his personal fortune in the Club. Similarly, Forest were able to spend £7.5m on one player alone.

    Even with the spectre of Financial Fair Play upon us, we should still be able to compete with other similar-sized clubs, certainly in the Championship but there are likely to be an ever increasing number of clubs competing for a similar set players.

    Apologies for the long, rambling post. I guess to sum it up, I think I'm saying that there is some blame to go around as we are definitely short of a bit of quality in key positions. I 'm just not so sure as to where it should be apportioned as there are a number of factors that need to be taken into consideration.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2015
  8. BrummieNick

    BrummieNick Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    5,363
    Likes Received:
    1,193
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    No quustion mark over Dicko VLP for me although the latter can be very frustrating at times, but there's a player in there.

    For me we're just being ultra careful coupled with trying to develop our own talent which is seeing us move at a much slower pace than us supporters expect.
     
  9. WalsallWolf

    WalsallWolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    10,356
    Likes Received:
    2,017
    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2008
    Good post Tring. Unlike some, you have looked at it in a balancing way rather than just go down the normal route of blaming the board. I agree with pretty much everything that you say. It is easy to just blame Morgan and the board alone, very easy infact which it is being proved so by the popular thread which may as well be a sticky at the moment. Likewise it is easy to blame Jackett - and Thelwell too, the point is I think the club from an overall perspective needs to be taken accountable for the lack of signings, complacency and a little bit of deludedness too which the latter is extremely worrying.

    If we sign a similar amount of players next summer as last (which I hope is NOT the case) I simply cannot go through another set of quotes from Jackett which includes "I am very happy with the group" and "The target has to be promotion with x points by x and x points by x and so"
     
  10. The Pig

    The Pig Senior Member

    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2013
    The bomb squad may have gone but reduced parachute payments will in turn lead to a tightening of belts.
     
  11. andyc225

    andyc225 Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    9,214
    Likes Received:
    3,457
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2015
    Who's questioning Dicko? 9 goals and 4 assists in all competitions this season, having spent a great deal of it out injured.
     
  12. QB Wolf

    QB Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    7,037
    Likes Received:
    2,477
    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2005
    Definitely he has started creating goals, how many assists has he got in the last 4 games, at least 3, his run and shot that led to Afobe's goal against Huddersfield was as good as you'll see, sublime pass for Dicko's first too.

    Trouble is many fans have their minds set and it doesn't matter what he does!!
     
  13. wwbug

    wwbug Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    3,509
    Likes Received:
    1,225
    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    There is doubt over RVLP ( and Afobe will take time to asses) Other than RVLP and Afobe not one player has been added to our Division One first team. And we have seen the demise of Henry, Jacobs and Ricketts. I have seen nothing that says KT is doing a good job. And he is our central stone in the building project !
     
  14. Essex Wolf

    Essex Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    45,143
    Likes Received:
    3,731
    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2005
    But is KJ being restricted WW and having to acquire players within a certain range in both terms of cost and wages?

    If so it could be argued that Morgan/Board are to blame in some way.

    I can't believe it's coincidence that so many of KJ's signings since reaching the championship have been generally poor. His dealings in L1 were by and large, bar Clarke, very good but upon promotion 2 of the 5 signings have been poor and 3 of the 5 freebies. This is of course not taking into account the many players signed for the U21 squad and/or academy.
     
  15. Mr Wolf

    Mr Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    21,148
    Likes Received:
    5,011
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    I think OTT fee's for McCormack, Forshaw & Assombalonga just skewed everything up last summer, that didn't help.

    Saville, Rowe & Sagbo should have all been better players considering the amount of time we had when we knew we were going up.
     
  16. Essex Wolf

    Essex Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    45,143
    Likes Received:
    3,731
    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2005
    Glad you mentioned the amount of time before going up MW.

    The very moment Wolves knew promotion was guaranteed they should have been making plans. Somewhere those plans got lost if of course they were ever drawn up.
     
  17. wwbug

    wwbug Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    3,509
    Likes Received:
    1,225
    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Personally I think Jarvis and Kightly and to a certain extent Fletcher- £10 million profit - ( along with those named by you ) showed Morgan that you can make money from football . Mike Ashley and his French purchases ? And hence our academy focus. How else can you make money from football ?
     
  18. Essex Wolf

    Essex Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    45,143
    Likes Received:
    3,731
    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2005
    Re your last comment bug I'd say being successful and in so being playing in the PL, attracting bigger gates and selling more merchandise. All those would help I'm sure.
     
  19. QB Wolf

    QB Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    7,037
    Likes Received:
    2,477
    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2005
    Afobe has scored 3 goals since arriving, I've assessed him, we have two fantastic young strikers in him and Dicko, thro into the mix a great player in RVLP, if we can get a good replacement for Sako and a good attacking mid-fielder I'm already excited about next season.
     
  20. mikic

    mikic Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    3,463
    Likes Received:
    273
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    Agreed
     
  21. goldeneyed

    goldeneyed Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    14,365
    Likes Received:
    2,879
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2005
    Its a waste of time blaming anyone in particular, there is collective responsibility. We needed action at the beginning of January - at last we got in a striker and a decent one in Afobe. Very late in terms of the season but at least some deal was actually clinched for a change. But then there was a crying need for a couple of quality loanees. But the club failed miserably and even now there is no real sign of any urgency. That is what makes so many of us angry.

    We have huge deficiencies in our attack and midfield and nothing has happened. The likes of Jacobs just sit there and are not seen by management as good enough. So why not act, stop making excuses. Pay a premium for good loanees if necessary. Move your $$$$.

    Of what is left Nick Powell is the obvious No.10 candidate and is available. Knockaert may or may not be available - you would hope we might try for him. There are a few others surely. Lingard - a pity but Derby are more attractive and are actually going for it. If I had been Jackett I would have insisted on an all out attempt to attract Ince but of course that is far too ambitious for our club.

    As always you are left in despair at the club's complacency and culture of making excuses all the time. They are blessed with incredibly loyal supporters and it is not true that they are all negative. But the situation over lack of strikers this season has been truly amateurish and the need to upgrade or at least provide competition for Edwards has been glaringly obvious. That is the very least you would expect but nothing.

    Another match, this time Rotherham and it will be the same old - perhaps we will get lucky - but our goal record for and against tells its own story. The two Ms, Thelwell, KJ just sit there awaiting Mr Perfection, the 'right' player. A perfect excuse to do nothing. You wonder over all the months they have had time to prepare and look for alternatives at home and abroad what exactly they have been doing. KJ's latest comments sounded as if well yes perhaps now if the right player is available we could consider brightening up our attacking options. Oh yes Kenny what a good idea.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2015
  22. wallace

    wallace Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    4,662
    Likes Received:
    533
    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    the blame lays with those who alienated perfectly good players by refusing to play them. its cost the club massively by having to pay effectively 2 squads and using funds received from the premiership to pay for this. the ridiculous manager fiasco contributed to what was absolute rank bad running of the club. not bad players, bad managers or bad crowd attitude, just bad decisions from those in power.
     
  23. Dewsburywolf

    Dewsburywolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    39,109
    Likes Received:
    105
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2007

    Might be wrong but I thought that's what the parachute payments were introduced for in the first place --- to safeguard against being crippled financially by having to pay Premier League wages when you've been relegated :confused:
     
  24. wallace

    wallace Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    4,662
    Likes Received:
    533
    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    surely not to drop most of the players in that team and refuse to play them so they get paid for doing nothing while we sign cheap players to take their places, who obviously take a pay cheque, so more costs. the dismissed players were mostly good enough to do well given decent support from the club.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2015
  25. Rhoswolf

    Rhoswolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    18,616
    Likes Received:
    9,335
    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2005
    In any business that's perceived to have failed then the blame sits with the CEO, board (owner) and senior management. We are constantly told Wolves FC is a business so.....
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2015
  26. QB Wolf

    QB Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    7,037
    Likes Received:
    2,477
    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2005
    And a business is there to make money so ........
     
  27. German Wolf

    German Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    2,625
    Likes Received:
    942
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2011
    Could you please define a 'good job'. Someone else referred to KJ doing a 'bang average job' in the Championship. Don't know if you have noticed but we have transformed the squad very quickly and have held our own in competition for the play offs (above an average league position which is mid-table, I guess) all season. Personally, I would offer the phrase 'very good job' done on the back of 'excellent' last year.
    I suppose it's just not good enough though for some Wolves fans.
     
  28. North West Wanderer

    North West Wanderer Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    36,519
    Likes Received:
    3,847
    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Was it so excellent last year? Or what he should have done?

    I rate him as average right now as some of the performances recently show him clearly not getting the best out of the available players, coupled with some absolutely baffling decisions.
     
  29. Essex Wolf

    Essex Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    45,143
    Likes Received:
    3,731
    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2005
    Suppose it's a case of each to their own and how they see things.

    For me KJ done a good job in L1 and fully deserves a chance to prove himself further up the tree. However all things considered he didn't have the toughest of jobs and anything other than automatic promotion would have been farcical.

    At present KJ is doing an average job from what I can see but do wonder how many restrictions he is having to contend with which may be making his job a lot tougher than it needs be?:confused:

    If he isn't being restricted, which I doubt, then he is doing a poor job but if he is being restricted then a good one. Hence I've gone middle of the road.:D
     
  30. Ercall Wolves

    Ercall Wolves Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    5,677
    Likes Received:
    2,594
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Something strange here, agree 100% spot on
     
  31. Mr Wolf

    Mr Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    21,148
    Likes Received:
    5,011
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    I think it was down to that wage parity thing again KJ installs. Why should Price be earning 4k when some others who put them in this mess are getting that 5 fold & more, it may have caused more disruption or conflict when the players needed to come together more than ever.

    I could maybe understand your thinking if we had failed or were struggling now but we are going along ok.
     
  32. North West Wanderer

    North West Wanderer Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    36,519
    Likes Received:
    3,847
    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Welcome to the dark side :embarassed:
     
  33. Dewsburywolf

    Dewsburywolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    39,109
    Likes Received:
    105
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2007
    Light side surely?
     
  34. Sussex Wolf

    Sussex Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    5,670
    Likes Received:
    1,627
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2012

    Quite a few other relegated clubs over the years might disagree with you. I think he did an excellent job, not just in winning the league with record points, but in rapidly stopping the rot in a way which his immediate predecessors failed to do. You can argue all day that it was expected that a big club like us, without significant financial issues, should have walked the league, but as clubs like MK Dons and Sheffield Utd have shown this season in the cup, League One now has some teams which can take on PL opposition when up for it, and for many of these clubs, playing us in the league last season was like a cup game. I went to a few away games last season, MK Dons included, and that certainly was the feeling you got.
     
  35. QB Wolf

    QB Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    7,037
    Likes Received:
    2,477
    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2005
    In most jobs you are given targets, if you fail to meet any of them you're doing a bad job, if you meet most of them you're doing an average job, if you meet all of them, you're doing a good job, if you overperform and smash your targets you're doing a great job. So great last year, good this year, I'm convinced KJs targets for this year were to cut the wage bill and get us in the top half.
     
  36. Sussex Wolf

    Sussex Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    5,670
    Likes Received:
    1,627
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2012

    I think you're right. I suspect the club have set him a further target of promotion from the Championship in two seasons, so he will be under much more pressure next season.
     
  37. Ercall Wolves

    Ercall Wolves Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    5,677
    Likes Received:
    2,594
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Then his bosses have got their targets wrong
     
  38. goldenwolf69

    goldenwolf69 Senior Member

    Messages:
    764
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2014
    Increase the saleable value by building i.e. new stand

    And yes, focusing on the academy for big future profits as a feeder club for the bigger clubs, easy money.
    Building 55 luxury new homes for a huge profit on the same site also helps (no benefit to Wolves, only Redrow)

    Why are the usual culprits blind to the truth; the clubs success and future is being hindered through financial constraints on the playing field to fund capital investments and future profits.
     
  39. wallace

    wallace Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    4,662
    Likes Received:
    533
    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Basically the decisions made handicapped and put back the clubs development which is still being rectified. Bad board decisions time and time again.
     
  40. Mr Wolf

    Mr Wolf Just doesn't shut up

    Messages:
    21,148
    Likes Received:
    5,011
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Nobody is denying Morgan is making money, rather him than somebody else do it.

    I just think he is trying to make us self sufficient whereas you seem to want a benefactor or think he's doing it to sell at a profit.

    We publish our accounts you can see what Morgan is taking out of the club. What's the worst thing that happens, we become profitable with a well run business model & he sells up to somebody richer than him?
     

Share This Page