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Refereeing and Technology

Discussion in 'Molineux Mix Archive' started by Sedgley Gold N Black, Feb 22, 2015.

Should more technology be brought into the game to assist referees?

  1. Yes

    25 vote(s)
    64.1%
  2. No

    14 vote(s)
    35.9%
  1. Sedgley Gold N Black

    Sedgley Gold N Black Just doesn't shut up

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    So thanks to Mourinho's brilliance by deflecting his team's inability to beat Burnley into a mass discussion on the standard of refereeing, the topic of further technology in football to help them out will inevitably pop up over the next week.

    As a team that's sufferred more than its fair share from poor refereeing over the last few season (going all the way back to the PL seasons) what's the Mix's view on further technology?

    For me it's a definite no for several reasons.

    Firstly a lot of the problems are due to the subjective nature of the decisions even with technology in most cases someone still has to make that call and can interpret it wrongly. Who would have the final say the reviewer or the referee?

    Then you have the issues around putting this into the game, I can't see how you would do it with interrupting the flow of the game to some extent. For example even a person in the referees ear would be some delay as they review the footage whilst the game goes on and within few seconds in football a game can completely change.

    Finally one thing that makes football so successful is that you'll go into work on Monday and have a discussion about the weekends football part of which will be around refereeing decisions. Do we really want to take away the discussion?

    I think the standard needs to improve but I'd prefer to see those simply not good enough removed from the professional game until they are and likewise I think too many show 'big club bias' simply due to the fear of the likes of Mourinho who have the power and media influence to slaughter them for a week or so that needs to change where they should be more concerned at the consequences for making bad decisions (ie a lengthy demotion out of the professional game for consistently bad decisions rather than a league for a game or two) than the reactions of a manager.

    Propping up bad referees with technology isn't the answer imo.
     
  2. Mugwump

    Mugwump Just doesn't shut up

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    I'm unsure. It's used in Rugby league. Sometimes it works well. It can be quick, efficient and accurate, other times, it's watched over and over, takes ages and they still get decisions wrong. At one time I used to be all for it, now I just don't know.
     
  3. Ewok vs Wolf

    Ewok vs Wolf Just doesn't shut up

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    A huge no for me.

    I can just imagine every review for offside with Sky going for a 2 min break and controlling the game in 5 years time.
     
  4. andyc225

    andyc225 Just doesn't shut up

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    I'm in favour of the goal line technology system in the Premier League, but I'd also be in favour of a video referee who could pick up incidents like Ashley Barnes' leg breaking tackle on Matic. I couldn't believe that wasn't even a yellow.
     
  5. DasWolf

    DasWolf Has a lot to say

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    There will always be a human element in refereeing, and all the technology in the world can't change that.

    The fact is that the game is extremely fast paced, and the amount of money at stake is ridiculous. Technology can provide answers to whether a player was offside, if the ball crossed a line, if a foul took place in the box and so on. It can also show that the ball hit a player in the face instead of the hand.

    A good solution allows refs and their assistants to get the technical and factual decisions right with minimal interference on the game, and making it easier for them to dedicate more of their efforts on the subjective calls. Was that foul worth a yellow or a red? What does he let slide to keep the game flowing?

    We've had a lot of decisions go against us this season, and far fewer wrong ones in our favour. It's very easy to imagine scenarios where a ref getting it wrong could cost a team promotion, or get them relegated.

    Refereeing standards need to be addressed, but technology can help even the best refs be more accurate in their calls. I don't see that as an inherently bad thing myself.

    Edit: I'd also like to see the Football League get goal line tech. Get some of the billions of Prem money to subsidise it so that even the poorest clubs can get it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2015
  6. Edgmond Wolf

    Edgmond Wolf MolMix Poster of the Season Runner Up 2011-2012

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    Yes from me, I assume we can have large video screens to see the playback :D
     
  7. North West Wanderer

    North West Wanderer Just doesn't shut up

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    Yes for me. Too much is at stake for decisions to be wrong nowadays. However, only in certain situations, and perhaps the captain gets 2 challenges a game? Similar to cricket?
     
  8. Poztin

    Poztin Just doesn't shut up

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    I like the idea of challenges, the threads on here would be quality.

    "KJ got his challenges all wrong today"

    "KJ used his challenges too late"

    "KJ is too negative with his challenges"
     
  9. PREM.L.L

    PREM.L.L Just doesn't shut up

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    Yes from me. Too many $$$$ calls/decisions to just let them go. Big decisions gotten wrong cost teams. Have a rugby league type 4th official for penalties etc. on the big screen Would add to the atmosphere.
     
  10. Essex Wolf

    Essex Wolf Just doesn't shut up

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    A yes from me. Anything that will help stop cheating and make the officials life's easier has to be good but I wouldn't want anything that would start slowing the game down too much. Anything new would only be of a benefit all round if decisions could be made/resolved within 20-30 seconds.
     
  11. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    I heard a good point on the radio in the week.In most other sports and certainly with goal line technology there is a definitive outcome and usually in sports where the ball is already dead.Football is a dynamic game where this is not always the case and what would happen if in the opinion of the arbitrator he still concurred with the decision because in many cases it would always be subjective and open to interpretation ?
     
  12. It's Mixu Paatelainen

    It's Mixu Paatelainen Just doesn't shut up

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    :D

    I agree with the issue Jonzy raised .
     
  13. Sedgley Gold N Black

    Sedgley Gold N Black Just doesn't shut up

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    So as a referee you wouldn't be in favour or are you just playing devils advocate?
     
  14. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    It would onlybever be at the top level and not universal .My own opinion is I am against but I would strengthen retrospective legislation to nail divers and I certainly disagree with 'the officials saw it ' so no further action can be taken .Did they actually see the incident or their version of things.The same with a yellow card being given but evidence showed it should be red but can't then be actioned upon.
    Improve on those areas first and I am sure there would be an improvement.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2015
  15. Sutton Wolf

    Sutton Wolf Just doesn't shut up

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    If a yellow had been given I don't think a retrospective ban could be applied,but because the ref missed the incident I believe it could be cited and a 3 match ban can be applied.Perhaps Jonzy could confirm..
     
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  16. Padraig

    Padraig Just doesn't shut up

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    I hate this argument. Shall we start telling referees to give something daft if it's a boring 0-0?
     
  17. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    If a yellow is given it cannot be upgraded to a red.Similarly if the ref said he saw an incident but didn't issue a card that is the end of the matter but did he see the full incident or just the view from his position?
     
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  18. StefanWolves

    StefanWolves Just doesn't shut up

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    Absolutely yes. No brainer. If a decision is to be referred by the referee to replays, they should get 2 different camera angles. That's it. Each clip should only be 5 seconds long as to not disrupt the games rhythm. The overall process from referral to decision being made by the referee should be 30 seconds tops, leaving the referee 20 seconds to consult his linesman/4th official on what they think the decision should be given the evidence they've seen.

    This scenario should only be used on a) challenges that the referee may deem a yellow or red card b) all potential penalty decisions
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2015
  19. Sedgley Gold N Black

    Sedgley Gold N Black Just doesn't shut up

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    Interesting to just apply it to scenarios where there is a break but for the penalty decision would this only apply when he has blow for a penalty to confirm the decision is correct or would play be stopped whenever there is a penalty claim?
     
  20. JW

    JW Just doesn't shut up

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    Yes, it's unfair on referees for technology to scrutinise every mistake, and some mistakes are atrocious . We have the technology so may as well use it to be honest.

    It would take a few seconds and would also cut out cheating especially in tackles and stuff
     
  21. WolvesAreBoringOnCeefax

    WolvesAreBoringOnCeefax Moderator

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    It could be implemented in a fairly non-obtrusive way I think. Take Chelsea yesterday, in all the commotion following the Barnes challenge there was more than enough time to view the replay and send him off in the same time span that Matic was carded. As a one off example.
    If you had an extra official watching a feed of the game say 5 seconds behind play, he could essentially watch the game normally and then look down at his screen for a 2nd glance. Pull up other angles etc, have the ability to instantly apply slow mo to it.
    I totally get the argument that it could be disruptive, and feeling aggrieved by the ref is part of the fun sometimes, but I would like to see it tried out.
     
  22. Edgmond Wolf

    Edgmond Wolf MolMix Poster of the Season Runner Up 2011-2012

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    I must bore my son, every match I say we should review and ban the divers and cheats.....it would stop very quickly

    Cheats are $$$$$$s
     
  23. waggys left foot

    waggys left foot Just doesn't shut up

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    Its a no brainer and will be driven by tv anyway -we all want the correct decision and that means fourth official is sat in front of a screen.

    You can live in the past but other sports are makiing football look stupid and out of date.
     
  24. Chuck Murray

    Chuck Murray Senior Member

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    I'll respectfully beg to differ ... living in the US, I am exposed to all of the North American "major" team sports (American football, baseball, basketball and ice hockey), and to a certain degree each has adopted video technology to supplement on-field officiating. It's been a very mixed bag, and in my opinion has probably adversely impacted the enjoyability of the games more than it's helped.

    * American football was the first, and while they started using it for boundary and possession calls at first, it has expanded since. The game has plenty of regular opportunities for breaks in play, but the prevalence of "challenges" really does tend to bog the game down. Perhaps a side effect is that officials seem less decisive, and almost seem to be happy to be taken "off the hook" on a difficult decision (they also change rules annually, but that's another issue entirely);

    * Basketball started using it for timing issues (end of quarter/game and shot clock violations), but also gradually expanded into possession and boundary issues, and more recently into flagrant fouls. The last two minutes of a game was already an ordeal time-wise to navigate (stop clock on all whistles and timeouts, which is not unusual to see the last 2 minutes in a big game last 10-15 minutes in real time) and is now even worse. But all in all, video tech in this sport is fairly wisely used;

    * Baseball is already a slow-paced game, but in recent years they have finally given in and allowed video tech on most boundary calls, and now on safe/out calls as well, with the same "challenge" system used in the NFL (the NBA does not use a "challenges" system). Balls and strikes are monitored via video, but this is only for use by commentators and viewers, as the umpire's calls on the field are not contested there. The main issue with baseball is that pace of the game has been increasingly lagging, and younger viewers not attached to the legacy of the game are ironically watching other sports (i.e. world football) instead;

    * Ice hockey (NHL) may be the best comparison to football, and video started out with goal line tech (which is helpful but primitive, since there are no sensors in the goal OR the puck, so it's just raw overhead video to show if the entire puck crosses the entire line. There are now some limited boundary calls, but they have not really expanded things into offsides calls. I think the NHL has gotten it mostly right so far.

    Transferring this experience into football ... I think you can link growth of football in North America to the younger generation's acceptance of Internet technology to enjoy viewing options that us in the following generation could only have dreamt of. They see better quality (and free flowing) football from abroad, and not the junky 4th division level of the old NASL or early days MLS. They also seem to embrace the free flow of play, which is increasingly absent in North American team sports.

    Nothing is ever going to be perfect ... but these are games, and are for entertainment, and I personally can live with some level of imperfection in the officiating of games. Offsides was implemented to prevent the practice of "goal hanging" and it does that in both football and hockey, so minor errors do not cause me huge distress.

    I am 100% for after-the-fact disciplinary supplements for bad actors and bad acts, so long as it's not impacting the flow of the game. JMHO.
     
  25. Oldgold Wolfcub

    Oldgold Wolfcub Just doesn't shut up

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    Simple question. Did you disagree with any of the claims Mourinho made?
     
  26. Oldgold Wolfcub

    Oldgold Wolfcub Just doesn't shut up

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    See today's thread on today's matches. Kevin Friend is being ripped apart by the posters for being very poor.
    These refs and particularly their association are cheating fans. If you went to see a film and it kept breaking down would you be happy or would you want your money back?
    The game is too advanced to officiate it like we do. If we invented the game today we would be using technology.
     
  27. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    However many of his decisions are based on opinion and not Law and no amount of cameras will change that because most decisions are based on opinion hence The Laws state 'In the opinion of the referee....'
     
  28. StefanWolves

    StefanWolves Just doesn't shut up

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    Play could be stopped after that phase has been completed. Also forgot to mention that the captains of both team should have 1 referral each. If your referral is correct - you keep your referral. If you lose the decision, that's it.
     
  29. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    What would happen if there was a penalty appeal and as the ball was cleared the opposition had a 4 on 1 break ?If the ref blew and the appeal was fatuous he would be lynched for denying such an opportunity.
    For me there is far too much grey in the argument .
     
  30. berwickwolf

    berwickwolf Has a lot to say

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    I agree with Jonzy on this, and because it works in rugby as rugby has more breaks anyway whereas football is faster, as others have said. I would, however, like football to follow rugby in having the ref stop the clock when there is an injury or long stop in play. This would cut out a lot of the time wasting n cheating and everyone would know for certain how long is left.
     
  31. StefanWolves

    StefanWolves Just doesn't shut up

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    Rugby has more breaks, you think? The main breaks are for penalties/scrums - I'd say football has a lot more when u take into consideration throw ins, goal kicks, free kicks etc
     
  32. Chuck Murray

    Chuck Murray Senior Member

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    Would it be heresy to suggest a second on-field referee to share duties with the current one-referee system?

    Considering the size of the pitch, and the area one person is being asked to cover (with limited support from the linesmen/AR's), it would seem logical that missed calls due to "poor" positioning would at least be reduced.

    This is a change that ice hockey made a generation agp. It seems to have worked out pretty well. And they are asked to cover a much smaller area - albeit a much faster game.

    I would also suggest we ask more from the linesmen/AR's than flagging offsides and boundary calls. Some do this better than others.

    I would prefer any of these to "eye in the sky" video intervention that impacts the flow of the game.

    To those who think video tech is the solution ... be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. :(
     
  33. Chuck Murray

    Chuck Murray Senior Member

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    Disagree. First of all, the referee does stop the clock when there is an injury or stop in play. That is what gets added on in the end. So long as we leave it to the referee to add on additional time if he feels one team is guilty of time-wasting, then I'm fine with that, too.

    If you think having a stadium clock that stops and starts on a referee's whistle is going to "cut out a lot of the time wasting and cheating" then I think you're being a bit naive. That still goes on in all the other clock sports that DO have a stadium clock to govern time left to play. And I can assure you that only opens up other issues. I'd rather the referee maintain final control of the timing of the match, as it at least allows the referee to ensure the game does not end in any of the following:

    * Player standing on the sidelines posing 10 seconds for a throw-in;
    * 'Keeper shifting the ball from side to side of the six yard box to kill off the final few seconds before a GK;
    * Goalmouth scramble where either a goal is scored a second after the clock expires OR a goal scoring opportunity is denied by a deliberate handball violation by the defending team, seconds before the clock expires, so that a PK cannot be taken timely OR is rushed.

    There are a myriad of other potentially distasteful outcomes once you start playing with the timing of the match in a way that does not allow the referee to use his best judgment.

    Football is a great game, the best in the world, let's focus on ways to improve the quality of refereeing without resorting to too much tech. I can promise you, it is not the solution to most issues, and it will create loads of other issues you can't even begin to imagine.
     
  34. Oldgold Wolfcub

    Oldgold Wolfcub Just doesn't shut up

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    I might agree if Ashley Barnes was playing rugby. If this is the refs opinion he should be nowhere near a football pitch.
    Bad refereeing encourages the kind of reaction you saw from the Chelsea player when they know the refs are not giving decisions to stop the kind of challenge from the Burnley player. It is pathetic when Ashley Barnes walks away without any kind of reprimand whereas Matic gets a 3 match ban.
    I know the authorities could take action, because he wasn't yellow carded, but if we want to stop these kind of tackles he should get a serious ban of maybe 12 matches.
     
  35. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    But that decision had nothing to do with technology
     
  36. clifs

    clifs Has a lot to say

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    I am convinced some referees favour the big teams and this would make it harder for them so I am all for it, usually the play is stopped anyway.
     
  37. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    Matic reacted to the foul before he knew what the ref would do to Barnes.It wasn't an immediate reaction .He got up and then walked to Barnes.I do agree that they should take retrospective action against Barnes.
     
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  38. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    And if it isn't?
     
  39. WS10Wolf

    WS10Wolf MolMix Poster of the Season 2013-14

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    I do like the 'grey areas' in football. They provide plenty of debate and chat after the game, and it doesn't matter how much technology you have, the referee will still be human and susceptible to error. Short of having robots running the game, you'll always get decisions which are debatable.

    However, I think we need to give referees as much help as we can. In a football game, the referee is probably the only neutral element to the game (save for Cup Final venues, possibly). Therefore, it's very easy for players/managers to use them as an excuse, because it doesn't reflect badly on them. You lose 1-0 to a dodgy penalty? Blame the ref. After all, what can you have possibly done about it? The fact is, I can only think of a handful of games in my entire time watching football where a referee has been the sole cause of the game's outcome. One of them was this season, against Bournemouth. The rest of the time, yes the referee may have got a decision wrong, but there are many other factors which contribute to the result.

    Referees and Officials are a cheap and easy target for managers, as they can bemoan a poor decision without acknowledging that they are tactically clueless, got their line-up/subs/formation wrong, or that their new £10m striker is a dud. I'm very proud of the fact that our current manager very rarely comments on officials. I wish more would follow.

    Bringing in more technology would mean managers would have less to moan about. I like the idea of a referral system, but anything as subjective as that would be open to misuse. Also, what one player thinks is a stonewaller might look from the other wing a perfectly good tackle. Even giving the captain the sole responsibility would make the system subjective to who the captain is. If he's your goalkeeper, how on earth can he legitimately make a call on appealing a decision at the other end of the pitch?
     
  40. wolvesfcneil

    wolvesfcneil Just doesn't shut up

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