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Mancienne can stay

Discussion in 'Molineux Mix Archive' started by jabbawolf, Nov 25, 2008.

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  1. Toon Wolf

    Toon Wolf Guest

    Sweet. Get it done Jez!
     
  2. westside wolf

    westside wolf Senior Member

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    might even be worth a cheeky bid to sign him permanently in transfer window, just to test how much they really value him.
     
  3. Atlas 1951

    Atlas 1951 Guest

    As long as he's talking temporary deals I think we've got a great chance of keeping him for the season, but there are no direct quotations to that effect. If somebody came in for him seriously in January I could see him going.
     
  4. glasgowwolf

    glasgowwolf Just doesn't shut up

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    If we go up offer:-

    5 Million up front
    2.5 Million if we stop up.
    1 Million when he plays for England.


    Or
    5 Million
    2.5
    + 15% over teh 7.5 Million of future transfer

    That should be enough to get him....
     
  5. WolvesAreBoringOnCeefax

    WolvesAreBoringOnCeefax Moderator

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    It does sound a bit like they'd let him go permanently, though TBH I always suspected that, the stumbling block would be convincing him to come here.
    Oh, and Glasgow, he's good but I wouldn't be happy if we paid that much, certainly not upfront. Some crap players get a few England caps so wouldn't want a clause on just 1 cap, even if he's good might get a single cap, we pay and then he never gets much better and stays on one cap... whilst we've paid for an international player effectively. Make it 5/10 caps just to ensure we get what we pay for.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2008
  6. Powelly

    Powelly Guest

    Great news.. even better that we potentially have the best chief exec in the transfer market who will be able to negotiate a deal.

    Firstly id offer Chelsea a big loan fee to enable us to keep him until the end of the season. Any loan fee would be recouped by the financial rewards of promotion which would be vastly increased by us keeping the Mancienne- Stearman partnership.

    Once that has been agreed then get to the serious negotiations about if he is interested in a permanent stay should we gain promotion.

    Personally i dont think we'd get him for less than £6m now he's been involved with the England squad and is probably the most highly rated defender in English football.. People who are saying the fee is too much need to remember that Villa paid £10m for Curtis Davies in a much smaller financial climate for the football world than there is at the moment.

    Yes Chelsea dont need the money, but remember he has been on their books since he was a kid and should he make it at the highest level then he would easily command a fee of well over £10m.

    IF we are able to keep him and then persuade him to join us on a permanent basis then 3 of our back 4 can be a fixture of the side for years to come at the highest level.. i have no doubts that Stears, Foley and Mancienne can cut it in the premiership.

    Considering that the majority of our business under Morgans control has more or less balanced the books then this is the signing to make a real statement of ambition for the future of the club... If needs be sell Hennessey to fund it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2008
  7. woolee9

    woolee9 Guest

    That really sounds to me like Scolari couldn't care less for him. I agree with Glasgow. Pay the 4/5 mil upfront but then if the England caps thing goes into the deal, I agree with WolvesAreBoringOnCeefax that it would need to be a fair few caps to ensure that we don't get ripped off but, most importantly, just get him because him and Stears are undoubtedly the rising stars of the English defence.
     
  8. northnorfolkwolf

    northnorfolkwolf Just doesn't shut up

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    KF, RS and MM - quite a mouth watering dream
     
  9. glasgowwolf

    glasgowwolf Just doesn't shut up

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    The big question Mancienne needs to ask.....

    How long am I preparred to wait for a chance.

    Do I sign for Wolves for the rest of the season, then if they are promoted, do I sign permanently and prove I am good enough in the premiership.

    IMHO, he needs to be playing in the premiership next season, week in week out. That way he may just go to the World Cup.
     
  10. cooper_J

    cooper_J Guest

    He's played 3 games for us and has looked very good.

    BUT I think an overall valuation of 7.5 million is rather OTT to be honsest, especially given the initial £5 million outlay. Proven Premiership centre halves such as Upson (£6 million) and Woodgate (£7 million) went for similair amounts. I'd expect us to pay no more than £3.5 initial fee at very most.

    Also, the "if we stay up" bit......I'm all for optimism but we are miles away from going up as of yet. Lets not count our golden egg laying chickens.....
     
  11. Atlas 1951

    Atlas 1951 Guest

    I can't see Chelsea going for a deal that links his value with Wolves' survival in the top flight. Plenty of established mid-table teams would fancy him, why would the selling club look for a deal where a third of his value is in hock?
     
  12. GoldenHorseshoe

    GoldenHorseshoe Just doesn't shut up

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    That's quite a lot glasgow, from my view, (clips and commentary) he has improved the defence by a considerable degree, but 7.5M?
     
  13. glasgowwolf

    glasgowwolf Just doesn't shut up

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    How much did Villa pay for Curtis Davies.

    it depends how serious we are if your all wanting to pay 3.5 million then fine lets buy a donkey for that save money and return to the Championship
     
  14. cooper_J

    cooper_J Guest

    .......or pay over the odds like Leeds and end up in League One.

    Has the last 15 years taught you nothing? Expensive player does not equal good player. Mancienne is good but £5 million worth of good? No.
     
  15. Powelly

    Powelly Guest

    To be fair Woodgate and Upson only went for those amounts due to their previous injury problems and in the case of Woodgate that Madrid were desperate to get him off their books... In the same way that Lescott's fee was reduced due to his previous injury problems.

    Spurs could easily sell a fit and in form Woodgate to top 4 club or in europe for £15m+ in todays market. Curtis Davies went for £10m and he was by no way proven at premiership level....

    I agree with Glasgow's valuation given that he has now been involved in the England squad. in 3/4 years Mancienne will easily be worth £12m IMO whilst the premiership TV money rolls in from the global market.

    Spending £5m + on a player who has genuine ability to cut it at the highest level given the opportunity isnt a massive risk IMO.. Worst case we'd be able to sell him for more or less what we paid
     
  16. glasgowwolf

    glasgowwolf Just doesn't shut up

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    Yes

    DONT WASTE MONEY ON OLD PLAYERS

    However 5 million up front, for a player under the age of 21, who is widely recognised as the bright young English Centre half.
    A player who is likely to increase his sell on value as opposed to some of the players we have bought over the last 15 years.

    Leeds spent money they did not have, we are spending money we have.
     
  17. Atlas 1951

    Atlas 1951 Guest

    Depending on how he looks until the end of his loan period, 5m doesn't sound that bad (though 4m sounds better). 5m plus add-ons totalling another 3.5 million is way too much, IMO.

    I know what you mean about overspending but we are in a very different position at the moment to when we were spending on Akinbiyi et al. This would be an investment in order to secure promotion and begin building our Premiership squad. Plus, given the player's age, it would be seen as a good investment, contrary to your average Graham Taylor/Dave Jones signing.
     
  18. cooper_J

    cooper_J Guest

    I don't want to be pedantic but Woodgate was fully fit and at Boro who sold him to Spurs.

    I'm not saying that I don't think Mancienne is a really good player but we could get him for much cheaper especially if Jez is doing the deal.

    Just because Davies went for £10 million does't mean that Villa didn't pay over the odds for him.
     
  19. cooper_J

    cooper_J Guest

    I think he's be an excellent signing - at the right price. I'm not arguing with that.

    I just think that a deal rising to £7.5 million is alot of money.
     
  20. glasgowwolf

    glasgowwolf Just doesn't shut up

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    If we payed 8.5 million, we would have stayed up, we would have the England Centre half (I agree with making it for a number say 10 caps).

    8.5 Million for the England Centre half plus staying in the premiership, is lower than market rate.
     
  21. Deutsch Wolf

    Deutsch Wolf Just doesn't shut up

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    It's far too early to assess Mancienne's worth, he's played three games and very few people will have seen all of them. Those games have been against a Cardiff Reserves strikeforce, Burnley who played one up front for 45 minutes and had about two shots, and a very poor Southampton side, against whom he made a shocking error which should have led to an equaliser.

    Good start, good player, let's not get carried away.
     
  22. Powelly

    Powelly Guest


    oops.. forgot he'd had a spell at Boro.. i believe his fee was only so low though as i believe he had some sort of minimum fee/ club in europe release clause.

    The difference between us potentially paying a big fee for Mancienne is that he would be guaranteed to be in our side and the side to be built around the partnership of him and Stearman. I agree that Davies was overpriced, especially as he never looked that much of a class above IMO at championship level.

    Personally i wouldnt consider £5/6m over the odds in todays market for a 20 year old who is already on the verge of international honours without any prem experience.

    Obviously it would depend if the player himself wants to come though..
     
  23. hmm the E&s have missed off the last sentence

    ""Michael needs to play. It's better for him to play outside the club and then come back to Chelsea. But he still has a good future with us."

    Doesn't sound too hopeful long term...
     
  24. Atlas 1951

    Atlas 1951 Guest

    As I said above, if he's worth eight million (and as I and DW said, it is too early to assess whether that's the case or not, good as he's looked) somebody will pay eight million; I don't see why Chelsea are going to want to get involved in bargaining a price depending on how well a team that has played one season in the Premiership handles promotion.

    Secondly, people make the mistake of seeing a second season in the Premiership as free money. "Offer to pay them an extra 2.5m if we stay up, 'cause we'll have another 25 million to play with then, anyway", and that is false economy. We can't hope to build a side in the summer that lasts us for three years, so let's continue to get the right players at the right price, not elevated prices with a discount if we get relegated.

    Finally, if we start throwing silly money about now, however it's packaged, it will come back to haunt us come June, if promotion is attained.
     
  25. glasgowwolf

    glasgowwolf Just doesn't shut up

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    I said Loan till the end of the season then buy him.
    The whole thing surrounding him is his age... SO yes I believe we could bargain with Chelsea
     
  26. A fit again GE (George Elokobi) to add to that list would be great!
     
  27. goldeneyed

    goldeneyed Just doesn't shut up

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    One thing at a time. Let's see if he can do it for the rest of the season. Then IF we go up definitely worth putting in a bid. Some of the figures mentioned are way over the top however. I reckon £4m max with perhaps an add on if we survive in the Prem. Scolari's comments very encouraging and I could see him bringing in an experienced replacement rather than waiting another couple of years for Mancienne to mature. More problematic may be Mancienne's desire to move to (let's face it) a very dull Wolverhampton which after London is hardly attractive to a young man of his age and ambitions.
     
  28. Its a bit early to start talking figures I think. The problem as I see it is, if we win the league and Mancienne continues to play well, we will have done a good job of putting him in the shop window. Even if Chelsea are prepared to sell, I'm sure there are plenty of Premiership teams who are keeping a very close eye. I would like to think he loves Wolves and would want to move if we went up, but in reality, I think it will be hard for us to keep him. Unless he turns into a bag of cack over the next 6 months, and then we wont want to buy him anyway
     
  29. astraltrader

    astraltrader Just doesn't shut up

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    Oh good somebody else who thinks he is worth a lot more than the stupid £2/3M mentioned by many recently [you know who you were!] when I said £5M+

    Sadly I fear another Prem team will have probably done a deal before the end of the season...

    I keep dreaming of a defence built around Stearman, Mancienne and Foley
     
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  30. Mr Wolf

    Mr Wolf Just doesn't shut up

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    I've said it before and I'll have to say it again. After countless months at QPR they did not really think great of him but a few good games for Wolves some on here think we should sell Hennessey to buy him and beleive he's worth £5, 6 , 7 million. :D

    You lot crack me up
     
  31. astraltrader

    astraltrader Just doesn't shut up

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    I was mentioning this figure a fortnight ago and almost everybody then criticised £5/6M as being ludicrously high and insisted £2/3M was the maximum he would realise!

    At the time I said I would leave it to history to see who was right or not.
    As it stands I think that when he does get sold it will be in excess of my initial valuation anyway.

    One thing for sure - in one important way he is worth far more to us than to anybody else.

    His proven and well tested partnership with Richard Stearman...
     
  32. astraltrader

    astraltrader Just doesn't shut up

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    Mr Wolf -
    I have always said that I would rather keep Hennessey and buy Mancienne if that were possible.

    He is most certainly worth well over £5M.
    If he was definitely available at that price there would be a great deal of interest.
    With regard to being cracked up I dont think you need any help from anyone else here.
     
  33. Mr Wolf

    Mr Wolf Just doesn't shut up

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    Why is he worth well over £5m? Less than a season of average championship games....because he plays for Chelsea......A call up to the England squad.

    I've seen nothing apart from very raw potential of which I would not invest anywhere near £5m.
     
  34. manc_wolf

    manc_wolf Just doesn't shut up

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    FFS why do webmongs continue to have pointless, futile debates over one players valuation versus another????? it never ceases to amaze me...

    its like comparing apples to... i don't know... suspension bridges...

    2 circumstances are NEVER the same... the point in the season... the money the buying club has... and at that specific point in history... the money the selling club has... and at that specific point in history... the desperation the buying manager feels that position needs to be filled... the potential that player is deemed to have... the location of the club... history between agents/player/managers... i could go on and on and on and on and on (and probably have) but it's late and i'm bored already...

    can we stop this ridiculous type of debate straight out of the monty python argument sketch please???

    (do you want a full argument? or were you thinking of taking a course?)

    the point is not one of us has the first clue
    a) if chelsea will sell him
    b) if wolves will buy him
    c) when
    d) for how much

    so can we stop the cockfighting and speculation about who's the cleverest know-it-all about football and concentrate on getting 3 points on saturday please?? :D
     

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