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Correct point about VAR

Discussion in 'Molineux Mix' started by Jonzy54, Mar 17, 2019 at 12:52 PM.

  1. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    Watching the full game back this morning the commentator’s comments were interesting and salient.
    In the second half Shaw played the ball up to Rashford .I couldn’t tell at the time and whilst the pictures were inconclusive because of the change of angle elevation he did look offside.
    Guy Mowbray said AR’s are encouraged to keep their flags down so it could be reviewed by VAR if a goal is scored .As it happened he was subsequently fouled on the edge of the box.He went on to say if they had scored from the free kick the original decision wouldn’t have been reviewed.
    VAR will never be the perfect answer, being reliant on subjective opinion on decisions aswell as how far do you go back in decision making?
    Furthermore ,ultimately I want to see the match Referee make the ultimate judgement and not the VAR Official miles away .This is how other countries administer it.On balance the Lindelof decision was probably correct but the arbiter should be the Referee and not the mike in his ear .He should view a pitchside screen in my view ,
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019 at 1:01 PM
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  2. Axle

    Axle Senior Member

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    It feels a bit like Minority Report in reverse: everything up to that point affects everything after it.

    Technically it’s a good concept.

    Philosophically it’s really flawed.
     
  3. reanswolf

    reanswolf MolMix's Manchester United Cheerleader-in-Chief

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    I appreciate certain decisions still depend on the interpretation of a sitting/observing 4th official, but that tackle on Jota could have caused serious knee damage. And he definitely got the ball "after the player".
    What do others think? Trying to take off your Wolves glasses for a moment.
     
  4. Akaman

    Akaman Just doesn't shut up

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    There was also an incident in the first half where Jota appeared to be miles offside and we won a corner. Maybe give the linesmen an option to say to the ref to check for offside should an advantage be gained from the same period of play such as a set piece or penalty
     
  5. quirky_birky

    quirky_birky Just doesn't shut up

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    That'll always be a failing of VAR, unless every aspect of the game is analysed in detail (which would kill it as a spectacle). You could have a similar issue with a penalty review following a corner that should have been a goal kick, or a foul that was missed in the build up of another incident. It'll never be perfect, and I guess it'll just shift the nature of the debates of contentious decisions.

    Regarding the red card decision, I couldn't help but compare it with the Boly one early this season. It looked worse to me, but what do I know?
     
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  6. WOMWOL

    WOMWOL Senior Member

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    I think it speeds things up if var makes the final decision rather than the ref. However , I was under the impression that for a decision to be overruled it had to be a clear and obvious error. Not sure the red was
     
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  7. WV9_Wolf

    WV9_Wolf Has a lot to say

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    You're an experienced referee, Jonzy, and I'm an inexperienced but qualified referee. In my opinion, that Lindelof challenge more than warranted the label of excessive force and so my instinct immediately was it was a clear and rather obvious sending off offence.

    On slowing it down, VAR clearly deemed it not to have been excessive, but therein lies the problem - they slowed it down to review it. How can a reasonable judgment be made on that if they're going to watch it in slow motion? It looked an awful challenge in real time and that's why Atkinson went for the red. How do you see that?
     
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  8. SingYourHeartsOut

    SingYourHeartsOut Just doesn't shut up

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    From the South Bank I was screaming for a red, from other angles it doesn't look as bad, mostly because he was on the ground and hit him with his knee. Took Jota out before getting remotely near the ball though.
    upload_2019-3-17_13-26-30.png Live my feeling was that he knew he wasn't getting there well before the tackle but went through anyway and endangered Jota so it was a red, some angles make it look like a definite yellow. Overall I'd say a red was harsh, but also that it was not a clear mistake and should not have been overturned. I confess my view might be different if the situation was reversed.

    So slightly harsh red that should have stood is my opinion.
     
  9. Stoichkov

    Stoichkov Just doesn't shut up

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    Twice (Jonny handball and Lindelof red card) united players surrounded the ref and demanded he review it and put their opinion in his face, with tv commentators debating the Jonny handball for over a minute

    Two minutes before handball debate, Dendoncker was pulled over in the United area at a corner with Smalling also hauling down boly - his arms CLEARLY around boly

    Not even a debate about it, and certainly no VAR review

    I'd be happier with any of this if everyone could take their top-six tinted glasses off and it worked both ways

    Same with Michael Oliver at Chelsea, he gave EVERY touch on hazard and co as a foul

    We are still battling huge bias
     
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  10. Agent Cooper

    Agent Cooper Groupie

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    We will have to agree to disagree. I think the way other countries implement it is wrong. On the whole VAR has been successfully used in this country (with the odd exception) and has generally been well received by ex-pros (turned pundits). Shearer for example was vocally anti and now a complete convert. Whereas everywhere else there seems to be a lot more controversy surrounding its use/implementation.

    I thought the whole point of VAR was to correct "clear and obvious errors" made by on field refs? The Swansea game yesterday is a classic example of why the on field refs decisions should have been overturned. Surely that is exactly the job of the ref "sitting in the stands"/VAR HQ?

    I thought the implementation of VAR in the world cup was a bit of farce to be honest. The ref trots over to the touchline to review footage that presumably has already been reviewed by VAR HQ who must have come to the conclusion that there was a problem with the on field decision. Otherwise why flag it up for the on field ref to review in the first place? Cue further delay while the on field ref reviews the footage and then can ultimately turn round and say nah my decision is correct. What a farce and waste of time in my opinion!

    What I will say is I think where VAR will fall down and be criticised is if it continues to be used for decisions that are not "clear and obvious" and could be argued as some refs would give it some would not. The Lindleloff sending off I would say was one of those. The fact it took so long to review suggests it was one those subjective decisions that you could argue all day long one way or the other and in such circumstances the on field decision should be upheld.

    Ultimately I'm a big fan of VAR and hope with it's full roll-out next season and further use it will help to hone it's use and implementation.
     
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  11. Honved

    Honved Senior Member

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    I think they’re close to getting it right.

    As the OP said, it would be best for the referee to assess it himself for final say. But then people complain about the delay. The way it was done last night wasn’t that different, to my view, from a referee taking guidance on something he hadn’t seen from a linesman.

    And the offside incident is, indeed, an interesting quirk. Ultimately, I think the introduction of VAR will create a few problems. It will bring its own set of loopholes and quirks. BUT it will solve so many other issues, that on balance it will be a net win.

    They’ve not got it quite figured out yet. But they will.
     
  12. superwolves

    superwolves Groupie

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    Man city would possibly be out the cup now if they had it at Swansea. Needs to come in for me to make sure more often than not the correct decision is made same as with goal line technology
     
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  13. Henry Palfrey

    Henry Palfrey Just doesn't shut up

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    It wasn’t. Often VAR is an a rse
     
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  14. merseawolf

    merseawolf Just doesn't shut up

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    I think it was a yellow all day long. Yeah he took Jota out but there was no studs up and no stamp into him. Not much danger of serious injury from a tackle like that
     
  15. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    I thought Red at the time but reviewing it again it was probably just about a yellow .Atkinson got nothing wrong so perhaps those decisions should be left as they are because it wasn’t an obvious error in my view .
     
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  16. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    Yes in terms off offside (City’s winner ) and whether the defender got the ball(City’s second) however ,with regards to the Lindelof tackle that was more about interpretation and opinion as to it its severity and malice .
     
  17. JW

    JW Just doesn't shut up

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    The pitch side viewing is completely unnecessary
     
  18. superwolves

    superwolves Groupie

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    Yes it needs tweaking in areas but with more experience they will be better at it. Would Boly have been sent off at city with VAR? As long as they come to the correct decision most times then it will benefit the game
     
  19. WV9_Wolf

    WV9_Wolf Has a lot to say

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    I agree, no way should a subjective and borderline decision be reversed. In my opinion, it should only be there in cases where the referee has missed a potential incident or where a mistake has lead to a goal, not to make the decision for the referee.
     
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  20. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    And I will disagree because the onfield Refreree should be the arbiter on opinion not someone sat in a van 120 miles away .
     
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  21. superwolves

    superwolves Groupie

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    Technology is making the decision nowadays and it's more accurate than the ref as seen last night at Swansea
     
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  22. superwolves

    superwolves Groupie

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    They need to make sure they have the balance right in the studio regards making the decision with ex professional players having a say or the incident at PSG with the handball can end up happening
     
  23. Pagey

    Pagey Has a lot to say

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    One thing i would like to see, is the incident being reviewed, shown on the big screen, so we can watch.
    Wasn't to long last night, but if it took a while to come to a decision then involve the crowd, if your sat watching at home you watch replays etc
     
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  24. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    Being an ex professional doesn’t make them an expert because most don’t know the laws.Maybe have 3 opinions and base it on instant majority conveyed to the Referee but relying on ex Pros give me strength.
     
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  25. superwolves

    superwolves Groupie

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    Yes your probably right I think with regards to PSG most who have played the game would have said no penalty whereas maybe half the refs would say penalty. They will get it right in time then I think more often than not they will get to the correct decisions which is what counts
     
  26. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    The thing is whilst being nice to see what would it prove ? It would still be about subjective opinion and not about fact .Atkinson made his judgement on what he saw .What would it add by showing it on the screen to fans who would generally have a myopic opinion .
    The principle of VAR is good but the parameters need to be prescriptive ,definitive and consistent in what and how far back they will look in much the same way that cricket applies DRS.
     
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  27. andy-in-seat-190

    andy-in-seat-190 Moderator

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    In time that will happen - it has to. Plus, eventually they’ll let us hear the discussion between VAR and on field - as they do in cricket and rugby- it’ll take time but it will come.
     
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  28. Pagey

    Pagey Has a lot to say

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    Just think it would it would improve the fan experience, rather than standing twiggling thumbs, your seeing what is being decided
     
  29. superwolves

    superwolves Groupie

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    I watched a match this morning eibar v valladolid 90th minute the player goes through and gets brought down by the keeper in the box. The ref gives a goal kick then VAR tell the ref to take a second look on the pitchside tv. The ref is still the one making the decision but with technology he could see he made a mistake and gave the penalty. Surely that's the correct way
     
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  30. Jim Bowen

    Jim Bowen Just doesn't shut up

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    I didn't think it was a red at the time, seeing it back on tv though it doesn't look a red from behind or to the side but looks a red from the front. This is the problem with the excessive force nonsense, Boly gets banned for 3 matches for a perfectly timed slide tackle where he wins the ball first then catches the player. The Man Utd player knows he's going to hit Jota before the ball and launches into him, so how can that be a yellow when he's used excessive force to smash through a player?

    We need time limits for the reviews, give them 30 seconds to watch it, if they don't see enough to overturn it, then the game continues. Start the timer on the big screen as soon as the ref signals he's going to VAR. The length of time it took to review just an offside in the Man City game in midweek was ridiculous.
     
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  31. reanswolf

    reanswolf MolMix's Manchester United Cheerleader-in-Chief

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    It was a proper old skool type challenge, but we wouldn't get away with it
    No issue with studs, but surely the potential for injury would be with knee ligaments? The one angle showed how he went straight through him and how the impact Jota took was quiet significant. But then again, maybe its just me thinking that :)-
     
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  32. Jonzy54

    Jonzy54 Just doesn't shut up

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    I am not arguing against the Referee making the decision what I don’t want to see is faceless decisions made in a Van 120 miles away .By all means flag it up to the Referee but ultimately it should be his decision in my view.If viewed pitchside would Atkinson have overturned his Red? I don’t think he would because it wasn’t a clear and obvious error .
     
  33. Agent Cooper

    Agent Cooper Groupie

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    Whether the ref reviews on a screen on the side of the pitch or not I think we can all agree it must be a quick decision. They were just discussing VAR on the TV. All agreed VAR was good for the game but Lineker hit the nail on the head when said it currently being overused and should be restricted to "clear and obvious" errors. I agree and if implemented that would negate pitch side reviews and lengthy delays making decisions.
     
  34. DasWolf

    DasWolf Has a lot to say

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    I want to know why we had players wrestled to the ground without a VAR check, yet United had a penalty shout reviewed. No one seems to have mentioned it in the analysis as well.
     
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  35. superwolves

    superwolves Groupie

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    I think the time it takes doesn't matter as long as they get the right decision it's only like when a player gets injured and the physio comes on the pitch
     
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  36. quirky_birky

    quirky_birky Just doesn't shut up

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    With the benefit of hindsight, I'm glad the red was overturned. One less excuse for the Mancs. I might've felt differently if we'd lost the game.

    When I saw it initially, I felt that Jota was maybe expecting the challenge and looking for the free kick, so thought the red was unwarranted. I actually changed my mind after seeing the replays (some angles looked much worse than others).

    I think the ref should be the one who ultimately makes the call, with the benefit of VAR. Generally refs try to officiate in a consistent and balanced way. Some might let things go, that others might not, hence when you bring someone else in to make a judgement call, it can create an unbalance (that made sense in my head though not sure it does written down). The ref seemed quite card happy yesterday - sure there were plenty of cynical "tactical" fouls, but there were plenty of cards given out for what was quite a good tempered game. There could easily have been a second yellow, that presumably wouldn't have had the benefit of a VAR review, hence the overturned red could have been significant.
     
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  37. mexy

    mexy Groupie

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    The referee must have the final say, its crazy that they are in charge of the game
    but get over ruled by someone miles away watching replays.
    The ref after viewing it back, may have stuck with the red or he may have reduced it to a yellow but
    he absolutely must get to view it back to make his decision.
    If VAR is being brought in, it has to be used in the same way worldwide.
     
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  38. Elvis Wolf

    Elvis Wolf Just doesn't shut up

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    On another tack why was VAR used for our game and NOT for the Swansea/City one?
    Surely it should be all or nothing.
     
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  39. VancouverWolf

    VancouverWolf Just doesn't shut up

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    He didn’t just get the player first......he clobbered Jota at high speed. I can’t fathom how he didn’t get a red card snd I don’t buy the ‘error’ nonsense.
     
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  40. George AlooGobi

    George AlooGobi Groupie

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    Why is VAR only used at Prem grounds in quarter finals?

    Does VAR depend on the use of sky cameras or their technology which is already in place at Prem stadia?

    I thought it was farcical how one game could use VAR but another couldn't. The reason given was because one is a PL stadium, yet this is the FA cup!
     
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