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Team cohesion, cliques, Nuno and England

Discussion in 'Molineux Mix' started by AndyY, May 17, 2018.

  1. AndyY

    AndyY Senior Member

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    Heard a reasonably long piece this morning on Talksport (sorry) about the cliques that there have been in the England set up - players from different clubs not sitting with each other and not talking to the new selections etc. Dean Ashton was very disappointed with the way he was treated. No integration and a feeling of isolation. No wonder they haven't performed well in many tournaments.

    In contrast, I read something about Nuno's approach; getting rid of lots of small tables in the team restaurant and replacing them with large tables so everyone had to sit together etc. It seems an obvious thing to do to me (20 years in the RN living and breathing teamwork) but seems alien to the English footballers and England set up. Hope Southgate has changed that.

    Another example of Nuno being a good man-managerand understanding the importance of team spirit and the integration of new signings.
     
  2. lauren_g

    lauren_g Groupie

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    I also read that about Nuno.

    It sounds completely obvious to the outsider that you need to integrate players and not allow them to sit in cliques - how is the England set-up not getting this right?
     
  3. Stafford

    Stafford Has a lot to say

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    Can't believe that was allowed to happen at England level, named Lampard, Joe Cole, Beckham? Could be bitterness from Ashton.
     
  4. 5150

    5150 Newbie

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    England point aside (club over country every time) but Nuno will have his work cut out this time around.

    New players replacing the ones that "got us there" and having to integrate into what may be a bit more of a "hostile" environent.

    The bond this season was amazing... now he has to do it again under more difficult circumstances
     
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  5. WeAreTheWolves

    WeAreTheWolves Just doesn't shut up

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    It's a tough one for England because of the way this country is.

    To the majority of fans (that I know anyway, including myself) it's all about Wolves or your own club ahead of country.

    That surely transmits to the players and it's natural. Look at the best England side, you'd have Ashley Cole at Arsenal, Neville, Beckham, Scholes at Manchester United at a time when they hated each other and it was the biggest rivalry in English football.

    Then Liverpool players who always hate United as they would hate them.

    It's hard to switch things off, particularly when, as mentioned, the majority prefer winning for their clubs over their country. Jamie Carragher admitted that and there's no doubt others feel the same - at least he was honest enough to say it.

    It might have changed now a bit as they don't generally come from the better clubs so it's not as bitter a rivalry but it's the same mentality.

    I don't really know how you solve this to be honest because playing for England ISN'T the pinnacle as it once was.

    It's playing for your clubs, playing in the Champions League, winning leagues etc.

    I don't get that feeling in other countries. An Argentinian/Brazilian growing up for example, I think playing for their country is everything to them.

    As for Wolves, I'm not reading too much into that.

    I love Nuno but that's a pretty obvious thing to do and it gets highlighted because we are doing well.

    Similarly, I won't read too much into it if we are doing badly because make no mistake, stories will emerge that there are cliques in the dressing room as soon as we start faltering.

    You've already seen images of all the Portuguese players round each others houses for dinner and that, which is completely fine, but once we start losing word will spread that the rest of the group have turned against them or they've turned against the rest.

    Whilst we're winning it's all great, as soon as we start losing it will start. It's predictable but ultimately nobody knows.

    It's what I hate most about the football press to be honest, their supposed insight into dressing rooms. They just use results to paint whatever picture they want, usually negatively.
     
  6. Me Babbies

    Me Babbies Senior Member

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    I was once at a work event where Martin Corry from Leicester Tigers was talking about the importance of team spirit & bond in a winning side.
    He talked about the small differences in the England teams he played in that once the Rugby World Cup in 2003 & then lost in the final in 2007.
    In 2003 the whole team was set early on in the season so when they got to the WC there was no fighting each other for places in the team or squad. He said this formed a bond in the whole squad (not just the first team), & this bond helped them through the tough times in games but also outside of the matches during the tournament.
    In 2007 they were fighting each other to get into the squad pre-tournament, this meant they weren't full together as a squad and it showed towards the end of the tournament.
    He felt it was the difference between winning & loosing in the final.

    Mick had it in the promotion years & lost it when the big time charlies came in.
    Nuno seems to have it as a fundamental of his team, & it will be the reason why some players will never fit.
     
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  7. mcwolf

    mcwolf Senior Member

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    England a co remind me of moxey , greedy self serving toss pots.
     
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  8. JonahWolf

    JonahWolf Groupie

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    Featured in a few player biographies.

    Ferdinand and Carragher definitely owned up to it.

    North/South divides and Liverpool/United.

    So pretty much everyone hated everyone.

    Haven’t read it for ages, but Ferdinand did say something along the lines of:
    ‘Me and Terry didn’t like each other, but respected each other as players, so got on with it’
    To be fair they always looked one of the more convincing areas.
     
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  9. Wolfgang Wolf

    Wolfgang Wolf Just doesn't shut up

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    When I followed England in the 70s and 80s it was the same with the fans. The cockneys made it clear they didn't want to mix with anybody else.
     
  10. WW1963

    WW1963 Just doesn't shut up

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    This. I'm following Portugal.

    Unless we win the thing.
     
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  11. Mark Rankines Lovechild

    Mark Rankines Lovechild Just doesn't shut up

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    I was thinking about this, listening to Talk*****, last night. They were debating Moyes departure and the fans wanting to play the "West Ham way" despite having not played that way or won anything of note for years.

    It led me to thinking about whether they would approach Nuno, as he's a young manager, playing good exciting football and building a team to compete. Now I don't think, even if he were approached, that he would leave and go to a club that has owners and backers that are as unstable as Sullivan and Gold.

    However, I am wondering if Nunos approach would work at one of the top / established Premier League clubs? Our team has been built from young players that want to prove themselves and have been instilled and inspired by the Managers philosophies and footballing beliefs. As this team grows and bigger / star players come in to the team can he carry on this "team" ethos, continue to not single out star performers etc. The big players need to be loved, their egos massaged etc and if they feel they don't get this, e.g Yaya Toure and his lack of a Birthday Cake....How does Nuno deal with this. By no means am I saying he cant or wont adapt but there are reports of players (Aboubakar) for one with whom they had no relationship.

    The establishment of Wolves as a Premier League team I think he will be fine with. The transition from this to a team that regularly competes for trophies etc will be interesting to see how it is approached.
     
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  12. brightside

    brightside Just doesn't shut up

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    I remember Matt Jarvis saying he was made very welcome on his one call up.

    John Terry apparently went out his way to help him.
     
  13. Monswolf

    Monswolf Groupie

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    He must of fancied Matts misses
     
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  14. brightside

    brightside Just doesn't shut up

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    I did to.
     
  15. The Wolf Of Wombourne

    The Wolf Of Wombourne Groupie

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    Bit of the perfect time for Nuno as much as anything.

    He came in when the club was clearly in transition, most of the first team being brought in this season or last and most of the players who had been there years like Evans, Saville, Price, Edwards and others being shipped out meaning that most were new-ish to the squad. This allows him to put his own mentality and ideas in place as those who don't buy in would be shipped out and the new players he'd either worked with before or had no real previous knowledge of what went on at the club meaning they could be molded.

    Without the influx of new players he may not have been able to do this so being backed by the board was vital, its speculation of course but most managers who inherit a squad with little or no change in my opinion would struggle to get the players to buy in in such a short space of time.
     
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  16. AndyY

    AndyY Senior Member

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    The Rugby analogy is interesting as the last but one (I think) Lions Tour was divided early on in to the "Test Team" and the "Midweek Team" and when replacements had to come in to the Test team from the Midweek Team, they struggled to be a cohesive unit and felt second class.

    I think similar team cohesiveness problems affected the England cricket team performances in the Pieterson era.

    The need for teamwork, and bonding, is a no brainer for me, but then I spent 20 years in the RN working in teams, some thrown together at short notice, but I see a lack of team work in business all the time.
     
  17. Chisels_n_ommers

    Chisels_n_ommers Senior Member

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    Last time we went up we had a fantastic team spirit under Mick.


    Then a couple of bad eggs came along. .. O Hara and Johnson and that was it for team spirit.

    A players character as well as ability should never be underestimated

    The worst part . .. O Hara and Johnson were s*** footballers too!
     
  18. dennison11

    dennison11 Groupie

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    I do believe that Nuno and Thelwell have both said that any new personel soming in will have to have the right character
     
  19. oldgoldheart

    oldgoldheart Just doesn't shut up

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    Gerrard and lampard and especially ferdinand have admitted that at england level they would barely talk to each other. And ferdinand and lampard used to be friends. Pathetic
     
  20. JJ59

    JJ59 Groupie

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    My son heard from a Sky cameraman that Lampard routinely behaved in an aloof, unfriendly manner with the Sky staff. Unlike John Terry, who was always affable and keen to speak to everyone. Quite the opposite of the general perception of those two players.
     
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  21. Fifty Niner

    Fifty Niner Just doesn't shut up

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    It will be more of the same this time round. Southgate will abandon the adventurism of the friendlies and revert to type. Realistically, they should cakewalk the group and then likely get knocked out at their first attempt of sudden death competition football. If England do make the quarters it will be seen as a huge success and will no doubt guarantee Southgate a job for life.
     
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  22. Huge of Sharjah

    Huge of Sharjah Has a lot to say

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    .

    Evolution not revolution... Made me think of how Wenger developed his squad.

    .
     
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  23. Ian

    Ian Groupie

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    An "obvious thing to do " that previous management obviously didnt do.

    Responsibility for cliques in the England team rest solely on the management and you have to question the strength of character if they feel they are unable to deal with the cliques and create a one team environment.

    As for dealing with players that put club before country.... dont pick them, I have believed for many years England should pick a core group of players ( who may not be the best in their position or star players) and stick with those players over a four year period. ( barring injury) to create that team/club environment, building toward winning a Euro's or World cup........ it goes against the pick players in form argument but I believe it would get rid of that cut throat, every man for himself environment that was alluded to by another poster in regards to the Rugby.
     
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  24. Knocker Lite

    Knocker Lite Groupie

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    We see how Pep treated certain players at City as soon as he arrived that he laid it out quickly who was the top dog, Him, not them. Certain players who looked on themselves as the super stars suddenly finding themselves out of the team.
    Its a lesson for Man Utd and Arsenal where you see individual players inconsistent with their effort levels and allowed to continue that way.
    That wouldn't be allowed at Wolves, as soon as anyone thinks me not we they would be bombed out.
     

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