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The Real Deal?

Discussion in 'Molineux Mix Archive' started by crocos, Nov 22, 2008.

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  1. crocos

    crocos Has a lot to say

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    I've got to say I was nervous about today's game, and all the more so on hearing Mancienne was out.

    But really, save for a bit of faffing around at the start of the 2nd half, it was our game today. Again.

    Maybe I need stronger medication from nurse, but I'm buzzing with our team tonight, and when we can win like today with Mancienne out, Henry suspended, and SEB & Kites a bit lacklustre, you've got to feel we're becoming the real deal here.

    Plenty more twists & turns etc, blah-di-blah-di-blah, but full respect to Wolves, and MM in particular. Whatever may yet happen, I feel proud just watching last year's puppies maturing into rapacious Wolves.
     
  2. PeteWolf

    PeteWolf Guest

    I'm still not confident. Compare it to Dave Jones' teams and you could go to a match believing they could put 3 or 4 goals past anyone. This team just doesn't have that in them. It's a very, very average league and we're managing to become remarkably consistant as opposed good I think.

    Blackpool were shocking today, worst team to come to Molineux this season with perhaps the exception of Forest. We were helped by that and will need to seriously up our performance in the next two matches.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2008
  3. Mr Wolf

    Mr Wolf Just doesn't shut up

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    I would not say were are very good team playing the best football ever seen but we are very effective at what we do. We don't need to and can't play amazing football putting 3 or 4 past everyone every week.

    Today was another example of a professional display to win the game.
     
  4. WKET

    WKET Guest

    I still remember coming back from Sheffield Wed on the last game of the season when Sandwell Town beat us to the promised land a few seasons ago,i remember convincing myself during that season as well as believing all the hype that it was our year.In football terms i have never ever ever been more disappointed than that day,therefore i will not let myself get carried away.
     
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  5. Mark Rankines Lovechild

    Mark Rankines Lovechild Just doesn't shut up

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    PeteWolf, considering we are the highest goalscorers in the division and one of the highest in the country I find your comments a little strange. To be brutally honest I never thought the league was much more than average when Dave Jones team (compiled at a cost of over 20million) was playing. The short sighted transfer policy employed by that regime of signing players on the downward career spiral never meant we would retain a Premiership place. I feel that we have a resiliant, freescoring squad with more young, quality, players than you could shake a stick at. I look at Hull now, theye haven't gone for the "sign an aging megastar" approach to keep them up...I think this young squad, alongwith some prudent additions, has a lot more chance of sustaining a Premiership challenge and hopefully a Premierhip campaign.
     
  6. crocos

    crocos Has a lot to say

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    Nurse will be with you soon :D
     
  7. Mark Rankines Lovechild

    Mark Rankines Lovechild Just doesn't shut up

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  8. cooper_J

    cooper_J Guest

    I'm in complete agreement.

    With regards to whether we are the real deal, I think we will be a long way to knowing the answer to that one week from today......

    IF (and it is a big IF) we can get 6 points I really will start to believe - we'll certainly take some catching.
     
  9. crocos

    crocos Has a lot to say

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    Two wins and we're flying. But you know what, I'd almost be as happy with two draws. Stopping the Blades & Blooze from gaining would be better than a win and a loss.
     
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  10. Mark Rankines Lovechild

    Mark Rankines Lovechild Just doesn't shut up

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    I agree Crocos, but I would hope for a Stearman / Mancienne partnership for Tuesday night, I would really hate to go to Sheffield Utd with Collins / Shackell as they just haven't played together enough.
     
  11. cooper_J

    cooper_J Guest

    I would be amazed in Mancienne plays, especially given McCarthy's comments today.

    Stearman was taken off as a precaution - I'd expect him to be fit.
     
  12. PeteWolf

    PeteWolf Guest

    Statistics are all relative. Undoubtedly we are doing well in comparison to the rest of the division, but how many good teams have you actually seen this year? Reading are the only side that I thought have looked good, and they $$$$ed us. The next two games are tought tests, Blues especially, and perhaps we'll get the chance to test how good we are in the Cup, but for me they just don't convince as a good side.

    We're a well drilled team reliant on individuals for inspiration. The biggest thing for me in the Reading game was how well they read the game, and I think it was the main reason we lost to them. Go up a level and I think that is a big factor, which would be the undoing of us should we get promotion.

    In terms of the rest of the division, then I don't think it's anywhere near the quality it was before we got promoted. There always used to be 5-6 teams of the quality of Reading/Blues/Maybe us, but it hasn't been like that for a few years now.
     
  13. cooper_J

    cooper_J Guest

    I know it is a massive cliche but you can only beat what is in front of you.

    Secondly, If we aren't good then we are average. IMO you can't score 41 goals and have 43 points from 18 games and be average. We are a good team. Not great (yet) but certainly good.
     
  14. PeteWolf

    PeteWolf Guest

    Again though, it's all relative. Compared to the rest of the division I think we're certainly up there amongst the best sides on quality, but if we're talking about testing that quality against the next level then I'm very far from convinced.

    If we were a good team then we would be walking games, literally 4 or 5 every week, the division is of a standard asking to be ripped apart, but we're not doing that, it's more the 1-0's and 2-1's. Close wins, which again comes down to praising the consistency of the squad, but consistency is only a case of putting off the inevitable.
     
  15. Mark Rankines Lovechild

    Mark Rankines Lovechild Just doesn't shut up

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    We're a well drilled team reliant on individuals for inspiration. The biggest thing for me in the Reading game was how well they read the game, and I think it was the main reason we lost to them. Go up a level and I think that is a big factor, which would be the undoing of us should we get promotion.

    In terms of the rest of the division, then I don't think it's anywhere near the quality it was before we got promoted. There always used to be 5-6 teams of the quality of Reading/Blues/Maybe us, but it hasn't been like that for a few years now.[/quote]

    Agreed, but doesn't every team rely on a certain amount of "individuals" United....Rooney + Ronaldo, Liverpool... Torres, Gerrard, In this league... reading are reliant upon Hunt and the Irish lad up front who's name escapes me, Cardiff are not half the side without McCormack.... I'd say the fact that we lost Jarvis, one of our best players and Henry, one of our most consistent and still managed to cope speaks volumes. Our Premiership team was sadly lacking Murray and Lescott and boy did it show that we couldn't cope.

    I disagree regarding the quality in the division, there are now more teams in this division that have had Premiership experience and have or are still receiving premiership payments. Blues spent heavily and retained players whilst Wolves spent frugally but have generally bought quality...I am optimistic. By no means am i saying that every current player is Premiership quality, but I think we have the most solid spine of a team that we have had for many a year. Burnley looked garbage at the Molineux (worse I thought than Blackpool) but got a result at Chelsea. I keep expecting us to trip up, and god knows we don't have a good record against the Blouse, but this team has a resiliance, work ethic, and quality that I think we lacked in the Jones team. It's all about opinions, but we are top on merit generally playing decent football with some of our individual players (such as Kightly) misfiring at the moment. I think its a little churlish to suggest that the points accumulated this season are due to under par opponents - remember only three teams came down and we never made the playoffs last year so we must have improved dramatically since last season.
     
  16. Toon Wolf

    Toon Wolf Guest

    Horse$$$$. How many brilliant teams actually do this? None. Man Utd last season had plenty of 1-0 and 2-1 wins with a few drubbings mingled in. What about Chelseas when they strolled to the title? Same. This is about you not believing in McCarthy, you never have and now when we are proving ourselves to be (currently) the best side in the division the only thing you can find to do is say "we aren't really that good a side, we're just consistent". What a load of tripe.
     
  17. PeteWolf

    PeteWolf Guest

    2-1 and 1-0's are the bread and butter of a title winning team, but if you want to bring Manchester United and Chelsea into the debate as a comparison then you have to note that they regularly destroy teams, particularly the poor ones.

    We haven't been doing that, and I'm personally sceptical that we're capable of doing so. The Forest game has proved to be the exception, the one time we've really gone and torn a team to pieces. 1/2 an hour at Preston was about as close as we've come since, and that's over two months ago now.

    I haven't said I don't believe in McCarthy, I believe in what I see, and that includes an admission on previous threads that he has done much better this season than I was expecting (largely ignored by you and your cohorts). What I have said on this thread that he's built a good team for this division, which he has, and fair play to that. Consistency isn't something to be overlooked, but it is this teams greatest strength at the moment, and as a strength then it's not a very good one on a long term basis.
     
  18. jackfieldwolf

    jackfieldwolf Has a lot to say

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    Pete with all due respect [I do enjoy your posts] but I find your above observations a little .....let me say, slightly of the mark.

    Firstly we are the highest scorers in all four divisions, Secondly; We are gradually, relentlesly increasing our lead at the top of the table.

    Thirdly Blackpool were definately not 'shocking' This game in previous seasons would very likely ended in a draw or a home defeat.

    I know we are so used and programmed to failure, but let's give credit where due, we are grinding out results against sides at home that were previous draws or defeats, and winning away at teams that were considered historically difficult.
     
  19. Mark Rankines Lovechild

    Mark Rankines Lovechild Just doesn't shut up

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    Consistency isn't something to be overlooked, but it is this teams greatest strength at the moment, and as a strength then it's not a very good one on a long term basis.[/quote]

    So its nothing to do with a team packed full of internationals, winning consecutive games home and away, scoring goals, two strikers in the top scorer ranks for the championship, an increasingly solid defence, and working hard for the team.

    I'm not sure what you are after...Tesco Town destroyed a few teams last season but equally lost a lot of games. Their "pretty" football hasn't got them anywhere this season whilst the consistent graft of hull and Stoke has (both of whom must rank amongst the most technically inferior in the Premiership)

    We are not Manchester United or Liverpool or Chelsea, if we are good enough to get promoted this season then next season will be about competing, grafting, consistency, bouncing back from bad results and most importantly...surviving.
     
  20. Mark Rankines Lovechild

    Mark Rankines Lovechild Just doesn't shut up

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    PS, how do I do that quote thing...I'm a technophobe
     
  21. cooper_J

    cooper_J Guest

    Petewolf - the only team down at the bottom we've played at home we tonked 5-1. We haven't had much chance to destroy the poor teams at home.

    It isn't often any team goes away and mauls a team by 4 or 5 goals - and that includes United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea.
     
  22. Atlas 1951

    Atlas 1951 Guest

    That is a ludicrous thing to say. Consistency is what wins you leagues, not flash results when the going is good. Name one strength that is more important "on a long term basis" than consistency.

    We dicked Preston, a highly rated side, at their place. Ipswich were played off their own park by a full-strength Wolves. Burnley were a fancied side whom we totally shut down, Cardiff were on a hell of a roll until we came into town. Reading lost at home today to a team we beat away last week. We have got results against good teams, and during an injury crisis to boot. If we only get one point from the next two games we'll still be top.

    The Dave Jones team that you laud finished 3rd and 5th (a full sixteen points off second place that promotion season) and then bottom of the Prem. I'm surprised those 4 or 5 goal victories still keep you warm at night, to be honest.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2008
  23. PeteWolf

    PeteWolf Guest

    To your first point jf, as I've mentioned before, statistics are relative, and this is a poor league. Secondly, that's down to consistency, which I've praised. As for Blackpool, I really thought they were poor today. Ikeme only had one real save to make when he tipped the ball around the post in the second half. Other than for 10-15 minutes after the break I thought it was a real walk in the park and we'd have had to do pretty badly to lose to them. They offered nothing and were there for the taking (and before anyone points it out, not that I was expecting us to do so with a depleted team)


    So consistency then...

    What I'm after is assessing our weak points and exposing what needs to be improved. Football and being a manager is about consistently improving and aiming for perfection. We're nowhere near that, so there's room for criticism (and at the same time not ignoring the efforts made so far).

    The way I see it is that there are far too many people on this forum who are happy to stay still and say we're doing well, don't look past that.

    I would hope McCarthy doesn't share the same viewpoint.


    Taking away our best and worst performance (Forest and Norwich(?)) to analyse what we have and it's no more than good at best. Good is fine, and what you need if you're going to win an average division, but what I'm looking at is how far can they progress beyond that, and I'm not seeing any indications of great. That for me is a problem.
     
  24. PeteWolf

    PeteWolf Guest

    I think you've misunderstood what I said. Consistency is good, and vital for winning leagues (that's something of an obvious thing to point out), however you can be consistent without being great, which is the point I'm trying to make. We haven't been great at all this season (and I think you're over emphasising some of those games, Cardiff and Burnley in particular, the former where we were hanging on for most of the second half).
     
  25. dr cool

    dr cool Guest

    how misearble can one get.....

    dr:cool:
     
  26. PeteWolf

    PeteWolf Guest

    Not miserable at all dr. I'm happy with what the team have done, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking to improve on that, because from what I can see there is room for improvement, a lot of room if you want to look deep enough.
     
  27. Atlas 1951

    Atlas 1951 Guest

    If what you're saying is that our results have been consistent but our performances haven't, or that our performances have been consistently a-bit-above-average, I think you have to take two things into account: one, that the injury to Jarvis totally changed the shape of our midfield, and two, that we're building bottom up, and not top down.

    What I mean by the last point is that we're not buying experienced, Premiership-quality players to add the icing on the cake, nor are we holding onto a relegated side with a fair bit of talent, and it's a different kettle of fish. We've got good, young Championship players, some of whom will make the grade when we get up and some of whom won't. They're playing at the highest level they've played (for any length of time), and you are not going to consistently walk over teams if that is the case. On the other hand, players that are evidently better than the league they are in inevitably have days when they can't be bothered, and thus you get an inconsistent side that can turn teams over.

    Jones' side did not dick people every week; it had a purple patch to get us into second place (then lose it), and another one to get us into the play-offs. Yeah, when two goals went in, you felt we might get more, but when things weren't going well, motivation drained from the team like soup through a fork. In three and a half seasons we got three good half-seasons, and that was only ever enough in 2002/3.
     
  28. cookie

    cookie Groupie

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    I am of the philosoph yof taking a game at a time, winning each one if you can and if not taking losses on the chin but learning from them. I am all for long term optimism for sure but success is achieved through confidence. Confidence is achieved through winning and bbeing astute tactically. Over confidence, ignorance, making assumptions and naivety puts you down a slippery slope to failure. I want to see Wolves pushed to the max to show what we are really made of. I do not want to just see us win games but win with pride, passion and clever guile when needed.
    Keep it up Wolves
     
  29. PeteWolf

    PeteWolf Guest

    Injuries do of course play a part, but they do in every team, and I think even with Jarvis, whilst we do look a far better and more balanced side, we're still not there as a great team.


    This is an interesting point, but at the same time is this thread not about discussing where we are now? What might be and ifs/buts shouldn't come into the equation if that is what we're analysing.

    When asking if a team is the 'real deal' then I think it's largely a yes/no answer. Can they be the real deal? That's a different question.
     
  30. Atlas 1951

    Atlas 1951 Guest

    With respect, it was you that brought up a comparison with a five-year old vintage. Whether we are the "real deal" is a relative question, as it depends upon expectations. What I think (for what it's worth) is this team has got what it takes to get promoted automatically, and will give us a stronger base to work from than we had in 2003/4. I think that expecting players who were playing in Grays, in the League of Ireland and Luton Town until we signed them, in addition to winning fourteen out of eighteen games, to be handing out lessons in football to all-comers is probably asking too much.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2008
  31. crocos

    crocos Has a lot to say

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    Petewolf, I'm as cynical as you when it comes to WWFC, but even you've gotta say that even if we don't prove to be the real deal, we're so much on the up. When was the last time we had a team like this. Really?
     
  32. PeteWolf

    PeteWolf Guest

    So it's all about interpretation then. My interpretation of 'the real deal' would be it's a question of quality, not whether they're adequate to meet the requirements needed.


    Honestly, I don't think they're anywhere near as good as the team in 2001/02. They may have bottled it at the end, but from August to March they were the best team we've had since 1980 in my opinion.

    The team in the second half of 2002/03 were better as well, thanks largely down to the influence of Ince, which could be the real difference if we able to replace Henry with him.

    People may point out that neither of those teams played cosistently well for a whole season (01-02 the obvious ending, 02-03 the beginning), however at the same time this team is only halfway through a season as well. To say that they're good enough to stay top of the league and win it is conjecture and no basis for conclusive debate.
     
  33. Mr Wolf

    Mr Wolf Just doesn't shut up

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    Like I said were effective at thats what counts. Did you watch match of the day tonight? You don't need indications of greatness to progress.

    6 wins on the bounce and upset because no footballing masterclasses were tought. Give me our season so far over you Ajax, Brazilian all footballing mentality any day. Maybe QPR's new manager will give you a job after what their fans were saying today.
     
  34. PeteWolf

    PeteWolf Guest

    The question wasn't "are the team doing whats effective for getting out of this division". If it was then the answer would be yes, they're effective. "The Real Deal", then no.
     
  35. Mr Wolf

    Mr Wolf Just doesn't shut up

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    Well I assume he means by "the real deal" do we have a capable promotion winning team or are we just riding our luck.

    So "Yes" we are the real deal.
     
  36. PeteWolf

    PeteWolf Guest

    So again, it's a question of interpretation.

    I'm quite happy for us to be winning, that's the main thing, but the second thing we need to be aiming for is winning and being convincing/entertaining.

    There are too many people on here thinking the first one of those is the be all and end all and asking anything more is criticism.
     
  37. jackfieldwolf

    jackfieldwolf Has a lot to say

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    Pete, I wonder how many Man Utd Chelsea fans could have posted that apparant 'praise'.

    In regards to Wolves. Let's just sit back and enjoy. Because looking at the table tonight is something that a Wolves fan will not see too many times in our life time.
     
  38. cooper_J

    cooper_J Guest

    The 01/02 team were abject faliures, despite playing good football they simply didn't deliver. IF we do deliver this season we are a better side because we will have achieved all that we set out to do. However, if you do compare them results show we are a better side now. That team had 35 points from 18 games (8 less than now), scoring 30 goals (11 fewer than now) and had a longest winning run of 5 games (which we have now beaten twice with 7 straight wins and our current 6 game winning run).

    The 02/03 side really pushed on after Christmas but were pretty awful up until the Newcastle game - 8 defeats before the turn of the year. Lets not forget some fans were calling for Jones to be axed around Christmas. So if you are comparing us to that team at the same point of the season we'd absolutely blow them out of the water on both points, results and goals scored.

    However, you pointed to how good we were in the second half of that season - so it is best to compare them directly. The second half of the season was not without its moments, a 4-1 panning at the hands of Brighton for example (perhaps this seasons 5-2 at Norwich?). From the 20 games following the Newcastle game we got 38 points - 5 less than the 43 points we have with two fewer games played now. We also scored 38 goals which is 3 less than the current side with 2 less games played.

    That 02/03 side also cost a huge amount more and was made up the Dave Jones way - mostly experienced but ageing players with little sell on value. This side is young and has scope to improve futher rather than be on a downward spiral like the 02/03 team.
     
  39. PeteWolf

    PeteWolf Guest

    Stand still and we'll be surpassed. You have to keep looking at moving forward and improving, even when you're the best, because you can be sure the second place team are doing just that.


    And that's exactly the point where your argument falls down. You're comparing this team over half a season using the assumption that they will deliver to criticise that team for not doing so. Go back to any time prior to March '02 and that team was far more exciting to watch than this one and for large parts of the season were also top. On that basis, the current team hasn't done as well as these lot have done. If they're still top come the end of the season then they will have done (although again, that doesn't neccesarily make them better in terms of quality).

    As it is though you've got 5 months before you can start using that argument, and a lot can happen between now and then.



    See above, reversed.


    Myth that is about two yearss old. Mick McCarthy has spent £13.925m since he's been here compared to the £11.65m that Dave Jones spent.

    You can argue about resale value, but at the same time it's debatable that an experienced team getting us up quickly would have bought more into the club via increased income from being in the PL. If we'd gone up last season then we'd have a minimum of £30m extra coming into the club from TV and prize money alone. Is the resale value of these players really worth that much more than that of Jones' side? (especially when you consider most of the mark-up we'd get now would be from Kightly, which probably won't be much more than we got from Lescott).
     
  40. Jack

    Jack Just doesn't shut up

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    What a load of $$$$. We are ten points clear of third, highest scorers in the league and have only drawn one game. This division is as tough as any I've seen and this rose tinted look back at years gone by $$$$es me off. We've got eleven internationals, a strikeforce that $$$$es on cort and camara and they all have time to improve. We are good, we are top, bloody enjoy it
     

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