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VAR compared to cricket's review system

northnorfolkwolf

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I know we've done VAR to death on here but watching the cricket has made me realise how good and open their review system is. I know it's a different game and all the rest but the principles are the same - basically to review a potentially wrong decision by the ref/umpire. The reviewer is in the ground, the mic is on straight away and the views/opinions of the adjudicator are heard at the time by everyone in the ground. It's fast, it's clear and there can be no accusations of it being underhand/dishonest. Why does VAR have to be at Stockley Park? It's far more sensible and far less open to abuse if the reviewer is in the ground and that his comments are not secret, as at present, but made live for all to hear. What is so difficult for the authorities to have this in place for next season?
 

Mr Sizzle

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Agree. A set number of reviews woujd avoid all the clear and obvious rubbish. If the manger feels a mistake was made then they get a challenge . This would stop goals being ruled out when no one has seen anything wrong. Same as many sports like cricket and tennis. Works perfectly.
 

JadeWolf

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Personally I’m at the point where my view would just be scrap VAR altogether. I don’t like it, I don’t think it’s used properly and I don’t think it adds anything to the game. Let’s just go back to trusting referees to get most decisions right and accept that they get things wrong from time to time.
 

Bacon Sandwich

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If the brief from the Premier League had been...
"Look, lads, we want you to come up with a system that'll **** the fans off, that'll make us look like fools, that'll have fans thinking we're bent in favour of the big six and that will actively make people think the Premier League isn't worth watching any more."
...They'd have come up with VAR in its present form
 
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SA Wolf

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Rugby also has an 'open mic' between the ref and the TMO. Everyone can hear and understand the decision-making process. Appreciate that it takes time and is usually to debate whether a try is legitimate or for foul play etc...
Football is a totally different game and already fans are ****ed-off with the time it takes to arrive at a decision (E.G. offside), however the serious ****-ups recently lead me to believe that a more transparent VAR, even allowing for delays would be better than what we have.
 

Ned

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Personally I’m at the point where my view would just be scrap VAR altogether. I don’t like it, I don’t think it’s used properly and I don’t think it adds anything to the game. Let’s just go back to trusting referees to get most decisions right and accept that they get things wrong from time to time.
Bang on. The penalty decision last weekend would have been so much easier to accept if VAR wasn’t around because, whilst it didn’t touch Moutinho’s arm, you could understand why the ref thought it did.
 

old wittonian

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Bang on. The penalty decision last weekend would have been so much easier to accept if VAR wasn’t around because, whilst it didn’t touch Moutinho’s arm, you could understand why the ref thought it did.
You can't comprehend why VAR did though.
 
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bigbluewolf

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Bang on. The penalty decision last weekend would have been so much easier to accept if VAR wasn’t around because, whilst it didn’t touch Moutinho’s arm, you could understand why the ref thought it did.
If you can understand why the ref thought it did touch Moutinho's arm, then you must understand why VAR didn't change the decision. It wasn't deemed a 'clear and obvious' mistake by the referee.

Don't agree with that assessment myself but that is the guidance as far as I know.
 

Frank Lincoln

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Personally I’m at the point where my view would just be scrap VAR altogether. I don’t like it, I don’t think it’s used properly and I don’t think it adds anything to the game. Let’s just go back to trusting referees to get most decisions right and accept that they get things wrong from time to time.

I have been saying that for some time. I used to think that the decisions from Fawlty Towers were due to incompetence, but recently I have wondered if it is more sinister than that. The review system in cricket is excellent. Players and spectators know exactly what is happening, and why decisions are given. Why does VAR have to be shrouded in secrecy?
 

woop woop barmy army

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The problem is Cricket and Rugby the decision made are usually more obvious. With football they are subjective on my occasions and even asking people on the Trent penalty last night we've had a mixed response, so no matter what happens there is always going to be that element.

Only other option is take the refs out of the game completely and sit them in the stand to make the calls.
 

jwolfie91

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Cricket decisions are basically always clear cut and black & white. Delays in play are natural as well. Can't even compare.
 

ChesterWolf

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Agree. A set number of reviews woujd avoid all the clear and obvious rubbish. If the manger feels a mistake was made then they get a challenge . This would stop goals being ruled out when no one has seen anything wrong. Same as many sports like cricket and tennis. Works perfectly.

Wouldn’t have stopped Man City being awarded a penalty last week though.

Problem is the people making the decisions not the way its used.
 

old wittonian

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If you can understand why the ref thought it did touch Moutinho's arm, then you must understand why VAR didn't change the decision. It wasn't deemed a 'clear and obvious' mistake by the referee.

Don't agree with that assessment myself but that is the guidance as far as I know.
If its a mistake then its a mistake. Why does it have to be clear and obvious.
 

SA Wolf

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Cricket decisions are basically always clear cut and black & white. Delays in play are natural as well. Can't even compare.
Not true. Often catches are subjective and even with television replays, slo-mo, highlighted focus etc... the third umpire cannot categorically say whether a catch has been clearly taken.
 
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Jonzy54

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No true. Often catches are subjective and even with television replays, slo-mo, highlighted focus etc... the third umpire cannot categorically say whether a catch has been clearly taken.
The key in those situations is that the onfield umpire gives a soft signal of out/not out to the TV official and there has be be conclusive evidence overturn the decision
 

SA Wolf

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The key in those situations is that the onfield umpire gives a soft signal of out/not out to the TV official and there has be be conclusive evidence overturn the decision
Yes, that is also part of it. However this is because the current technology (TV) cannot be definitive.
 

Spitfire

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Personally I’m at the point where my view would just be scrap VAR altogether. I don’t like it, I don’t think it’s used properly and I don’t think it adds anything to the game. Let’s just go back to trusting referees to get most decisions right and accept that they get things wrong from time to time.
Couldn’t agree more. Have never liked it. Doubt we’ll ever be rid of it though.
 

Flump

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If its a mistake then its a mistake. Why does it have to be clear and obvious.

Well, if the on field ref's decision is just going to be ignored and the incident judged from scratch, then what's the point in having a ref?

But also, this would extend how long each check is - at the moment, if something is close then it should be relatively quick, whereas if the VAR had to decide on 50/50 calls, then they'd want even longer than they currently have.

If it was up to me, I'd have a 30 second time limit, and if they can't tell that the original decision was definitely wrong in the first couple of replays in that time, then the decision stands.
 

Ned

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If you can understand why the ref thought it did touch Moutinho's arm, then you must understand why VAR didn't change the decision. It wasn't deemed a 'clear and obvious' mistake by the referee.

Don't agree with that assessment myself but that is the guidance as far as I know.
No because the ref gave handball when it didn’t touch the arm. Moss being Moss was in the wrong position and not up with play so saw a raised arm and appealing players. It’s clear and obvious if it didn’t hit the arm, surely?
 

tamwolf

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In the NFL the coaches have a challenge flag they can throw on the field when they disagree with an official's call. If the challenge is overruled, the coach loses the challenge flag and the team is charge a timeout.

Something similar might work in football. Each coach is given one challenge flag. If the lose the challenge they lose the flag so can't challenge again.
 

Jonzy54

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Yes, that is also part of it. However this is because the current technology (TV) cannot be definitive.
In terms of hitting the stumps it probably never will be .They rely on predictive path relative to trajectory and bounce .Either way the players accept it
 

Contrarian

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Personally I’m at the point where my view would just be scrap VAR altogether. I don’t like it, I don’t think it’s used properly and I don’t think it adds anything to the game. Let’s just go back to trusting referees to get most decisions right and accept that they get things wrong from time to time.

I'd take that. And have an increase in post-match video reviews. Especially looking at instances of blatant conning the ref. Make the refs job easier. I know we all love to criticise the refs, but the reality is that conning the ref has become part of the game, which can't be right. It makes the refs job far harder than it need be - and the nature of football is that it is hard to referee anyway.
 

Jefe

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One of the problems with VAR is the "clear and obvious standard", which still puts too much faith in the incompetent on-field decisions. In VAR's eyes, John Moss didn't make a clear and obvious error because for a nanosecond, the ball may have brushed Moutinho a millimetre below the sleeve line, and therefore benefit of doubt to the referee.

Does this remotely resemble common sense? No. I would like to either see the clear and obvious error abolished (i.e. VAR can 100% overrule a subjective call made by the referee), or a Joker system as mentioned that allows for the clear and obvious standard to be overridden.
 

SA Wolf

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I'd take that. And have an increase in post-match video reviews. Especially looking at instances of blatant conning the ref. Make the refs job easier. I know we all love to criticise the refs, but the reality is that conning the ref has become part of the game, which can't be right. It makes the refs job far harder than it need be - and the nature of football is that it is hard to referee anyway.
Hear hear. Cheating is rife in football and I'm not talking about the officials.
Whether it's players stealing 5 yards at a throw, so-called professional fouls when players are through on goal or deliberately clutching your head from the slightest brush of a finger nail on your butt; seeking to gain an advantage from such means is cheating and should be called that imo.
 
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Contrarian

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Hear hear. Cheating is rife in football and I'm not talking about about the officials.
Whether it's players stealing 5 yards at a throw, so-called professional fouls when players are through on goal or deliberately clutching your head from the slightest brush of a finger nail on your butt; seeking to gain an advantage from such means is cheating and should be called that imo.

Yes, it sounds just like the whinge of a grumpy old man, but that's what I am! But I am getting increasingly fed up with the game due to the cheating. The diving. The play acting that is turning it into closer to professional wrestling every season. Sometimes you have to wonder if that is exactly what those in charge of the game want. Controversy. Goodies and badies, just like when the crowd at wrestling would get riled up by some fake shennanigans. Grealish is the Kendo Nagasaki of football!
 

Mr Sizzle

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Wouldn’t have stopped Man City being awarded a penalty last week though.

Problem is the people making the decisions not the way its used.
Perhaps - no solution is perfect. But if there is only limited challenges, Man City may not have even used a challenge on it. A lot of goals are ruled out when no one has even appealed / seen anything...
 

Sussex Wolf

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Not sure on the limited challenge system, since this still allows them to make the same stupid decisions they do now. But having an open mic for any exchange between Ref and VAR would help to make the officials more transparent. It would also place a burden on them to make defendable decisions during the game too, which is what we really want. They would probably say that they already issue responses for contentious decisions after the match, but that’s hardly the same. It gives them time to compare notes and come up with a bs excuse for the inexcusable.

Frankly given the veil of secrecy which they currently surround themselves, it’s hardly surprising that they didn’t offer to implement an open mic.
 

DasWolf

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The problem with VAR more than anything else is incompetent arrogant officials.

Imagine for a second we had good officials who were genuinely looking to correct errors while keeping in spirit of the game (no 1nm offsides after 5 minutes). VAR would be a lot better.

What I do find interesting is why the PL seem so reluctant to be transparent. Which tells you there's probably corruption, but it also shows what the referees are like as humans. They don't want scrutiny. They don't want accountability, or transparency. They like their cosy secret club where they can do what they want.
 

Watfordfc

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Might be a way of stopping teams appealing for everything or trying to con officials each they get touched if they know there are2/3 calls they can have.

But you will still get subjective decisions which will be seen either way and there is always one team upset with a decision.

Totally agree on the open communication part .

Would be a lot of benefit to understand decisions and stop the ease of which refs are influenced.
 

Norman Bell

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Yes, it sounds just like the whinge of a grumpy old man, but that's what I am! But I am getting increasingly fed up with the game due to the cheating. The diving. The play acting that is turning it into closer to professional wrestling every season. Sometimes you have to wonder if that is exactly what those in charge of the game want. Controversy. Goodies and badies, just like when the crowd at wrestling would get riled up by some fake shennanigans. Grealish is the Kendo Nagasaki of football!



Sorry Contrarian I cannot agree with something you said ............................................... Grealish is the Adrian Street of football with the way he is always playing with his hair and general body language :D:D:D



Mixers who were not around during World of Sport Wrestling will be thinking WTF !!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Dr Wolfenstein

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Yes, it sounds just like the whinge of a grumpy old man, but that's what I am! But I am getting increasingly fed up with the game due to the cheating. The diving. The play acting that is turning it into closer to professional wrestling every season. Sometimes you have to wonder if that is exactly what those in charge of the game want. Controversy. Goodies and badies, just like when the crowd at wrestling would get riled up by some fake shennanigans. Grealish is the Kendo Nagasaki of football!
The brilliant story of Raul Jimenez's Wolves mask and the WWE connection -  Birmingham Live
 

Brockmoorwolf

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Cricket decisions are basically always clear cut and black & white. Delays in play are natural as well. Can't even compare.
No they are not, how many times I've watched and they get the snickometer out it takes ****in ages to sort out to see if he has edged it or if his bat touched his pads instead. It's not as you think.
 

YouGottaRaulWithIt

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The problem with VAR more than anything else is incompetent arrogant officials.

Imagine for a second we had good officials who were genuinely looking to correct errors while keeping in spirit of the game (no 1nm offsides after 5 minutes). VAR would be a lot better.

What I do find interesting is why the PL seem so reluctant to be transparent. Which tells you there's probably corruption, but it also shows what the referees are like as humans. They don't want scrutiny. They don't want accountability, or transparency. They like their cosy secret club where they can do what they want.
The people that run football in England have always been out of touch. They wouldn't allow live football to be shown because they were sure it would damage attendance at grounds. In fact, it has had the opposite effect. They wouldn't even say what game was being featured on MotD until the mid 80's. An overpaid, arrogant old boys club.
 

northnorfolkwolf

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Just reading through this. My thoughts were just to have VAR more open, like cricket, with adjudicator in the ground and open mic so fans can hear the discussion between the 2 refs. I hadn't considered an appeal system like cricket and NFL. Perhaps each manager could have 1 appeal a game/a half? Lage could have appealed the pen decision against Moutinho and had it assessed/re-assessed by the VAR official, ideally who is in the ground and his mic is open for all to hear. I have no doubt if this was in operation at the City game the penalty decision would have been overturned on appeal and we may have got a point?
 
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