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Tougher Measures Coming to English Football

Bradmore Wolf

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anyone who has a lung or breathing disorder e.g. copd, asthma etc could in danger
Classic example of today's culture. 30k+ can't enjoy the pyros/flares because of 1/2/3 maybe 4 sufferers of asthma? Same with comedians- 1 or 2 don't like the jokes, complain and so many, many more miss out.
 

Streathamwolf

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Had an interesting 606 phone in on Radio 5 last night. It was a fan behaviour special and for once it was serious and measured. They had a social psychologist on who is an expert in the area and has done years of research into football fan behaviour. He was calmly trying to explain the various factors and suggesting that we have to differentiate between celebratory pitch incursions and the some of the idiot and violent individuals who cause trouble when invading the pitch. At this point Sutton kept on interrupting him and trying to manufacture outrage, the same petty way him and Savage do on a normal 606. This guy put him straight back in his box and said if he didn't want a proper discussion he'll just leave the programme. Then went on to go through the various factors while a chastened Sutton stayed quiet for once. I like Sutton's publicising of dementia on football but hate the way 606 has been dumbed down and turned into a taunting show that constantly tries to manufacture outrage to get callers angry and argumentative. Anyway, the podcast is available, it's a good listen.
Sutton Savage et al are, as said, just there to wind everyone up with the lowest level of pathetic provocative nonsense. Should be off the airwaves permanently.
 

Direwolf

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One flare may be OK but when it becomes three or four it severely restricts visibility and when fans start throwing them it all creates an unnecessary hullabaloo. I cannot see what they add to the fans experience who does not have one it just seems like showing off to me.
 

Wonder Boyo

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Well, he did post a cartoon showing Meghan Markle's baby as a chimpanzee, if I'm remembering rightly.
Want to defend Baker here. Looking at it out of context it does seem abhorrent, but he often posted photos of people as chimpanzees on social media as a joke (but you would have to see them to see the context he used), and I genuinely don't think he's was trying to make some sort of racist joke. Context is everything. I think everyone was rushing to condemn him without knowing the type of character he is and the humour he often uses. It was, as is often, a social media pile on. He misjudged and made a mistake, but there was no room for him to explain, or time for people to consider nuance. Some people are horrible and show you who they are consistently (we all know who they are), but some people make genuine mistakes and aren't given the opportunity to explain, apologise and rectify the problem. Danny Baker isn't a racist, he made a mistake.
 

Flump

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Want to defend Baker here. Looking at it out of context it does seem abhorrent, but he often posted photos of people as chimpanzees on social media as a joke (but you would have to see them to see the context he used), and I genuinely don't think he's was trying to make some sort of racist joke. Context is everything. I think everyone was rushing to condemn him without knowing the type of character he is and the humour he often uses. It was, as is often, a social media pile on. He misjudged and made a mistake, but there was no room for him to explain, or time for people to consider nuance. Some people are horrible and show you who they are consistently (we all know who they are), but some people make genuine mistakes and aren't given the opportunity to explain, apologise and rectify the problem. Danny Baker isn't a racist, he made a mistake.

I don't think people necessarily thought he was/is a racist, but that he was either trying to be very provocative, or was staggeringly thick/out of touch to not think that comparing a mixed race baby to a chimpanzee would be shockingly offensive.

Looking into it, he also didn't initially apologise really:
“Sorry my gag pic of the little fella in the posh outfit has whipped some up. Never occurred to me because, well, mind not diseased,”

That's probably what did for him - all the mortified "oh my God it was a horrible innocent mistake, obviously everyone is rightly offended" comments came later when he was trying to cling onto his job.
 

Mark Rankines Lovechild

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Classic example of today's culture. 30k+ can't enjoy the pyros/flares because of 1/2/3 maybe 4 sufferers of asthma? Same with comedians- 1 or 2 don't like the jokes, complain and so many, many more miss out.
Yeah, not seeing coloured smoke is going to kill my enjoyment of the game - I’m cancelling my season ticket.
 

WickedWolfie

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Classic example of today's culture. 30k+ can't enjoy the pyros/flares because of 1/2/3 maybe 4 sufferers of asthma? Same with comedians- 1 or 2 don't like the jokes, complain and so many, many more miss out.
Easy to say when it isn't you or your family affected. I wonder if you would take the same view if your son or daughter was struggling to breath and some pathetic individual made that comment?
 

Wonder Boyo

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I don't think people necessarily thought he was/is a racist, but that he was either trying to be very provocative, or was staggeringly thick/out of touch to not think that comparing a mixed race baby to a chimpanzee would be shockingly offensive.

Looking into it, he also didn't initially apologise really:


That's probably what did for him - all the mortified "oh my God it was a horrible innocent mistake, obviously everyone is rightly offended" comments came later when he was trying to cling onto his job.
Maybe, he's never been a wallflower. I guess it's galling to have to apologise for being racist when you know you weren't being racist, and also to apologise for something you've done many times in the past without comment (depicting posh people as chimps in suits). Not the most sensitive of souls is Baker, and sometimes he can be argumentative and stubborn. Just didn't think he deserved to lose his job for a misunderstanding like that. But like I said, he's no wallflower and he's quite spiky, so the last thing he would want to do is manufacture a grovelling apology to those attacking him. I would have handled it differently, but I can imagine it's hard not to be angry or come across as insensitive when you have thousands of people who don't know you calling you a racist. I think it was one of those incidents when people were delighted to angry at someone so they could get their cortisol rush. Maybe the BBC had no choice given the situation, but I wish people would take time to reflect and look into something before the full force of angry self-righteous condemnation.
 

Flump

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Maybe, he's never been a wallflower. I guess it's galling to have to apologise for being racist when you know you weren't being racist, and also to apologise for something you've done many times in the past without comment (depicting posh people as chimps in suits). Not the most sensitive of souls is Baker, and sometimes he can be argumentative and stubborn. Just didn't think he deserved to lose his job for a misunderstanding like that. But like I said, he's no wallflower and he's quite spiky, so the last thing he would want to do is manufacture a grovelling apology to those attacking him. I would have handled it differently, but I can imagine it's hard not to be angry or come across as insensitive when you have thousands of people who don't know you calling you a racist. I think it was one of those incidents when people were delighted to angry at someone so they could get their cortisol rush. Maybe the BBC had no choice given the situation, but I wish people would take time to reflect and look into something before the full force of angry self-righteous condemnation.

Yeah, I think all that's pretty fair.

It's difficult, as while he presumably didn't mean it to be racist, it is pretty obviously unnaceptable to compare a mixed-race baby to a chimp, so either he's too out of touch to realise that, or he didn't care/wanted to provoke a reaction but misjudged how badly it would go down - either way, I can see that making him a person organisations don't want to employ.

I don't think his first reaction would have had to apologise for being racist, but if he'd initially said "I'm so sorry, I hadn't thought about the connotations, I apologise to everyone I've offended as I can completely understand how it comes across as racist", rather than complaining about people being "whipped up" and "diseased", and basically coming very close to defending it.

I think too often celebrities think of Twitter as if it's a very casual medium where anything goes, but if you tweet out something that appears racist to half a million followers, while having your employer's name in your bio, it's never going to end well for you.

The irony is, he did issue a "grovelling apology" later on, but that was clearly in an attempt to save his job, after his initial non-apology.
 

Alex Rae The Substitute

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Don’t go on the pitch, there really is no need. I love a “limbs”, “scenes” moment as much as the next person at the football, but never needed to enter the field.

Don’t light a flare, there definitely is no need, especially as there never seems to be any gold flares lit when we score. I’ve seen the South Bank light both blue and even red flares when we score, embarrassing. What’s even more embarrassing is the hanging smoke that seems to stay in the air even longer if a goal is then ruled out by VAR.

Lastly, don’t assault players. Yes they’re likely earning far more than we ever will, ****ging fitter girls than we will (or ever will again - I had a lucky streak at Uni when I had hair and no belly :laughing:) , and they are probably far more physically attractive than we all are. But they don’t need to be assaulted.

I’ll call a player all sorts during the game (excluding racism/ homophobia), but I’m fully aware if he scores and he comes over and gives us the “shhhhh” he’s fully entitled to and there is F All I can do about it. I just have to take it.

That’s turned into more of a rant than intended - but my point is, just don’t be a dick at games. It’s quite simple. I’m all for measures that clamp down on the minority who can’t control themselves.
 

GateWolf

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I have in the past wondered what Fosun and other foreign owners make of fans behaviour, the culture of drinking, the tribal nature of the sport the recent increase of both drug use and violence (not all fans of course but some) is totally different to their culture and values,
 

optimuswolf

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Don’t go on the pitch, there really is no need. I love a “limbs”, “scenes” moment as much as the next person at the football, but never needed to enter the field.

Don’t light a flare, there definitely is no need, especially as there never seems to be any gold flares lit when we score. I’ve seen the South Bank light both blue and even red flares when we score, embarrassing. What’s even more embarrassing is the hanging smoke that seems to stay in the air even longer if a goal is then ruled out by VAR.

Lastly, don’t assault players. Yes they’re likely earning far more than we ever will, ****ging fitter girls than we will (or ever will again - I had a lucky streak at Uni when I had hair and no belly :laughing:) , and they are probably far more physically attractive than we all are. But they don’t need to be assaulted.

I’ll call a player all sorts during the game (excluding racism/ homophobia), but I’m fully aware if he scores and he comes over and gives us the “shhhhh” he’s fully entitled to and there is F All I can do about it. I just have to take it.

That’s turned into more of a rant than intended - but my point is, just don’t be a dick at games. It’s quite simple. I’m all for measures that clamp down on the minority who can’t control themselves.
I think thats sums things up nicely for me. Shout, boo, do slit throat signs to oppo fans, whatever floats your boat, from your seat or standing position.

But don't be a horrid antisocial lighting flares or invading the pitch giving cover for a drunk (everyone going mad over ilegal drugs when some folk are legally 12 pints in and can barely remember what they've done in the morning) bloke to clock someone.
 

wwfc9

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I think drug sniffer dogs could help prevent a lot of issues at football games too.


A better read…

Contrary to popular belief it doesn’t actually turn everybody into a moron !! Much in the same way alcohol doesn’t …
 

Streathamwolf

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Don’t go on the pitch, there really is no need. I love a “limbs”, “scenes” moment as much as the next person at the football, but never needed to enter the field.

Don’t light a flare, there definitely is no need, especially as there never seems to be any gold flares lit when we score. I’ve seen the South Bank light both blue and even red flares when we score, embarrassing. What’s even more embarrassing is the hanging smoke that seems to stay in the air even longer if a goal is then ruled out by VAR.

Lastly, don’t assault players. Yes they’re likely earning far more than we ever will, ****ging fitter girls than we will (or ever will again - I had a lucky streak at Uni when I had hair and no belly :laughing:) , and they are probably far more physically attractive than we all are. But they don’t need to be assaulted.

I’ll call a player all sorts during the game (excluding racism/ homophobia), but I’m fully aware if he scores and he comes over and gives us the “shhhhh” he’s fully entitled to and there is F All I can do about it. I just have to take it.

That’s turned into more of a rant than intended - but my point is, just don’t be a dick at games. It’s quite simple. I’m all for measures that clamp down on the minority who can’t control themselves.
My feelings exactly, well said.
 

WolfLing

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The club will always make a big play about this sort of thing, but the reality of the situation is they can't really police what people get up to at the ground.

I've sat in a lot of different stands this season, the worst by far was the 'family enclosure'.

You're not supposed to be allowed in there without a kid, yet for the bigger games, there's always groups of grown men sitting together without a kid in sight, drunk, swearing, disappearing every 10 minutes to use to toilet cubicles (must all have IBS!).

No one is going to say anything, as there is no effective stewarding to back you up. If the stewarding was effective, they wouldn't be there in the first place, probably some on kid's tickets.

How are the club ever going to identify culprits of blatant drug taking? You'd only have to employ one undercover officer to stand on the concourse and you could probably blatantly identify 50-100 people per game.

How are they going to stop pyrotechnics being taken into the ground wit the most unenthusiastic searches known to man?

West Midlands police are so under-resourced they can't police effectively and the stewards probably aren't paid enough to care. They say they'll increase sniffer dogs, but I'd be shocked if I actually see one next season.

So I always take articles like this with a huge pinch of salt, as in reality, nothing will change.
 

Mile End Wanderer

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Contrary to popular belief it doesn’t actually turn everybody into a moron !! Much in the same way alcohol doesn’t …
Why is it the countries that have legalised drugs don’t have many issues then?
 

wwfc9

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Why is it the countries that have legalised drugs don’t have many issues then?
Not sure where you coming from , i meant some people are fine while taking drugs and drinking alcohol , where as others are morons , I’d hazard a guess the morons are probably still morons when sober !! Also let’s not pretend these people who assaulted players are fans of the clubs they were at , no way do you act in the manner when your in a euphoric state , which you would be in if your side had just won a massively important match or gained promotion
 

Mile End Wanderer

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Not sure where you coming from , i meant some people are fine while taking drugs and drinking alcohol , where as others are morons , I’d hazard a guess the morons are probably still morons when sober !! Also let’s not pretend these people who assaulted players are fans of the clubs they were at , no way do you act in the manner when your in a euphoric state , which you would be in if your side had just won a massively important match or gained promotion
you would make a good politician
 

Mile End Wanderer

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Not sure where you coming from , i meant some people are fine while taking drugs and drinking alcohol , where as others are morons , I’d hazard a guess the morons are probably still morons when sober !! Also let’s not pretend these people who assaulted players are fans of the clubs they were at , no way do you act in the manner when your in a euphoric state , which you would be in if your side had just won a massively important match or gained promotion
You are right. Also the clubs need to try and curb the hooligan culture. I’m sure you’ve had your own experiences we all have following our gold blood over the country. Drugs give or take like you say everyone is different on them.

Everyone has the right to enjoy their life, whilst within football grounds the safety of others has to be thought of.
Very lost lol
A good talker lol
 

Direwolf

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I notice a Bradford fan was injured this weekend when a fellow supporter threw a flare from the upper tier. Bradford of all places. I cannot believe the insensitive attention seeking idiot that did this. What will it take for people to learn that their pathetic self importance is enough to potentially kill hundreds of people.
 

WickedWolfie

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I notice a Bradford fan was injured this weekend when a fellow supporter threw a flare from the upper tier. Bradford of all places. I cannot believe the insensitive attention seeking idiot that did this. What will it take for people to learn that their pathetic self importance is enough to potentially kill hundreds of people.
If they catch said individual they should stuff a lit flare where the sun doesn't shine....
 

Sussex Wolf

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If you think it’s bad now, wait until the current crop of c.15 to 21 year olds come through. (Yes, I know there are exceptions)

Society, indeed life in general, has got progressively worse pretty much year in year out since the turn of the millennium. It’s then just been massively amplified the last 5 years or so.

Football is just a reflection of that.

Almost like the plot from a movie…

 
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